IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170

[Batgirl 2.0]

Considering RA’s wife was forced to move away due to harassment, no I don’t think it would ever be safe for RA to be free on bail. Not everyone has compassion for an accused double murderer of young girls, why he’s safest in solitary as well. JMO

Agree

 

[sunshineray]

I think he’s fine where he is but the trial shouldn’t be put off for another year. Have the two ex defence act as second chair or whatever but it shouldn’t be delayed.

Not if, as the judge has stated, they acted with gross negligence.

 

[Emma Peel]

Well it would if someone breaks the rulings of the court and/or the law itself. It also would be a responsiblity for that person to own if those strategies broke rules and laws under that someone's direction. Whether it will be shown that anyone did any of that in this case is still up in the air. AJMO

I'd like to understand what law the Old D broke?

The examples from the P involved court filings so why wouldn’t he have alerted the judge to any falsehoods? She wasn't involved in investigating the case.

You were disturbed by that but not this?
“Rozzi and Baldwin both stopped to acknowledge Allen’s wife and mother seated closest to the courtroom door to the public hallway near the media as Baldwin assured the women, “The whole world is watching.”

Do you recall reading Hennessy’s brief filed the day prior to the Oct 19th hearing, Sorry I don’t have it on hand but he named examples of dismissals under certain circumstances.

I’ve seen nowhere that states attorneys are always entitled to hearings prior to dismissal from a case and I’m beginning to think it’s been repeated so many times that it’s become an urban myth.

JMO

perhaps we're not on the same page.
Due process is the issue; there are no Gull "findings" unless Gull conducts a hearing.
Gull pulled "findings" <modsnip - vulgar> ... as far as the record shows.
Due process in this country is not an urban myth. Yet. <modsnip - off topic>
I have no problem that the whole world is watching; = transparency.
And I have eaten too many candy corns.
Forgive me.
Goodnight! Good Dreams!
moo!

 

[Arkay]

I grasp that the issue regarding the defense lawyers is quite important. I recognize that there is a need for discussion concerning the judge, which lawyer did what, and who is culpable and who is negligent.

It’s only my opinion, I’m not slamming anyone, but I don’t want us to lose our main focus and the reason we are here:

 

[MistyWaters]

I'd like to understand what law the Old D broke?

perhaps we're not on the same page.
Due process is the issue; there are no Gull "findings" unless Gull conducts a hearing.
Gull pulled "findings" <modsnip - vulgar> ... as far as the record shows.
Due process in this country is not an urban myth. Yet. <modsnip - off topic>
I have no problem that the whole world is watching; = transparency.
And I have eaten too many candy corns.
Forgive me.
Goodnight! Good Dreams!
moo!

If ever I’m in trouble with the law I’ll try it and be sure to let you know how it goes…..”Judge, we’re just on a different page“!

 

[mrjitty]

Did you read the full account of what transpired in court today according to Fox59? No wonder RA was denied his right to his chosen attorneys by the Judge. By the time the smoke clears they could be barred from practising.

I hope they may get their wish for a hearing…..before the Bar Association.

JMO

Agreed

I just heard on MS - first hand court reporting - that Rozzi did in fact agree to withdraw in chambers and now is trying to do take backsies

Please jettison these 2 into space

 

[sunshineray]

I'd like to understand what law the Old D broke?

perhaps we're not on the same page.
Due process is the issue; there are no Gull "findings" unless Gull conducts a hearing.
Gull pulled "findings" <modsnip - vulgar> ... as far as the record shows.
Due process in this country is not an urban myth. Yet. (<modsnip - off topic>
I have no problem that the whole world is watching; = transparency.
And I have eaten too many candy corns.
Forgive me.
Goodnight! Good Dreams!
moo!

I did state "if". The investigation by ISP is still ongoing as to who did and when they did break any laws. I believe the D's office and it's personnel as well as a personal friend and former employee are within that investigation and have been interviewed.

As far as court rulings go I believe there were numerous times court-labeled confidental discovery information was leaked even though there was a gag order in place.

 

[sunshineray]

The prosecutors also supported withdrawing the defense. I find it hard to believe the P would want to remove B&R if they thought B&R were providing an incompetent defense. Why would P want to face a better opponent when trying to put the person they believe killed A&L behind bars?


On what basis?

Someone asked for the document submitted by the attorney for B&R, I attached it here.

Verified Supplementation of the Record.pdf

drive.google.com

Also, correct me if I'm wrong and these are not comparable, but based on the fact that defendants accused of murder have the right to defend themselves if they so choose, despite the fact that it is almost ensuring an incompetent defense, I find it very hard to imagine justification that B&R can be dismissed for providing an incompetent defense despite the protestations of RA himself, when there are less harsh options that can be pursued to get them in line. It isn't up to the judge or the prosecutor how dramatic the D can be in defending their client or what defense will be effective.

Of course the prosecutors want worthy opponents as advisories at trial. If they didn't get competent defense attorneys all sorts of things determental to justice would occur before, during and at the appeals process afterwards. Prosecutors represent "The People". The judges who oversee the proceedings want the very same, so there are no mistrials because representation is incompetent or negligent...on either side.

 

[TL4S]

Agreed

I just heard on MS - first hand court reporting - that Rozzi did in fact agree to withdraw in chambers and now is trying to do take backsies

Please jettison these 2 into space

MS also discussed the troubling courtroom conduct of AB's lawyer friend, H. What are these guys thinking? Is it all about theatrics? I don't understand.

I have my suspicions that in both the 19th and the 31st hearings, JG and NMcL had concerns about the D's conduct possibly requiring LE intervention. According to BR, on the 19th, when they were "ambushed" in chambers, JG reminded them that ISP would be sitting behind them in court. I know that's probably because ISP would testify toward the leak investigation, but their presence would also be intimidating, I think. And I don't recall if it was in an article, or MS where I heard NMcL pointed the D out to the bailiffs yesterday, prior to JG coming into the courtroom. I realize this is probably because the ex-D were sitting by RA when they were supposedly off the case, but still... these guys are pushing it, IMO.

I get that a lot of folks think the ex-D are just out for fame in a high profile case, but thier conduct seems to be jeopardizing both their careers entirely. Why would they do all this? It doesn't seem to be good for anyone, including them or RA.

JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

MS also discussed the troubling courtroom conduct of AB's lawyer friend, H. What are these guys thinking? Is it all about theatrics? I don't understand.

I have my suspicions that in both the 19th and the 31st hearings, JG and NMcL had concerns about the D's conduct possibly requiring LE intervention. According to BR, on the 19th, when they were "ambushed" in chambers, JG reminded them that ISP would be sitting behind them in court. I know that's probably because ISP would testify toward the leak investigation, but their presence would also be intimidating, I think. And I don't recall if it was in an article, or MS where I heard NMcL pointed the D out to the bailiffs yesterday, prior to JG coming into the courtroom. I realize this is probably because the ex-D were sitting by RA when they were supposedly off the case, but still... these guys are pushing it, IMO.

I get that a lot of folks think the ex-D are just out for fame in a high profile case, but thier conduct seems to be jeopardizing both their careers entirely. Why would they do all this? It doesn't seem to be good for anyone, including them or RA.

JMO.

Agreed - the alleged conduct of H is simply bizarre and wildly inappropriate

 

[Willow Knight]

“I cannot and will not allow these attorneys to represent you,” the judge told accused killer Mr Allen.


She added: “I’m sorry that this has happened, Mr Allen.”

Delphi murders judge blocks attorneys in dramatic court hearing

31 October 2023 11:25 EDT

Ok, this is my take and my opinion.

In the end, should RA be found guilty, wouldn't this statement be grounds for an appeal either way?

Should the original defense team be allowed to represent RA and he is found guilty he could claim poor representation and even a judge admitted it.

Should the original defense team NOT be allowed to represent RA and he is found guilty he could claim he was denied his representation of choice.

Thoughts crossed my mind that the above may be a concern even if a different judge takes over the trial.

So sorry for Abby, Libby, their family and loved ones. So very sorry, may they have strength and support to get them through this.

 

[Willow Knight]

Wouldn’t the conflict to D&B be that RA couldn’t be assured of a fair trial if they represented him due to their prior gross negligence in representation of him?

Just jumping of your post.

I have a lot of posts to read yet, but was curious if I missed something. Do we know for certain there was gross negligence?

Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi . Are there any confirmed facts on how these 'leaks' were obtained? Possibly the judge has details we do not have. I can understand if the evidence was contained in a room and an outside person was allowed in the room there would be a cause for negligence. On the other hand if a person illegally entered an evidence room and took pictures, wouldn't we need more details?

It just feels wrong in so many ways that this is dragging out. Two young girls were murdered, let's move for quick justice for these girls. If there was negligence state it and charge the offenders.

 

[abams]

Just jumping of your post.

I have a lot of posts to read yet, but was curious if I missed something. Do we know for certain there was gross negligence?

Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi . Are there any confirmed facts on how these 'leaks' were obtained? Possibly the judge has details we do not have. I can understand if the evidence was contained in a room and an outside person was allowed in the room there would be a cause for negligence. On the other hand if a person illegally entered an evidence room and took pictures, wouldn't we need more details?

It just feels wrong in so many ways that this is dragging out. Two young girls were murdered, let's move for quick justice for these girls. If there was negligence state it and charge the offenders.

No, just the judge stating it. It appears arbitrary because we don't know how she made this finding, no hearing on the record with evidence and argument as you'd expect. The larger point is it doesn't matter if counsel was appointed, once an attorney/client relationship is established, the law takes interfering with that very seriously.

 

[girlhasnoname]

the pro bono move is ... both elegant and exasperating.

and sketchy as heck IMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm wondering if there is precedent ... if this has ever happened before - w/ a withdrawal of state-paid defense, only to have the same defense return as defendant's private pro-bono defense.

Experts say the privately funded defense is near impossible for the Court to remove.
The public-paid Defense is easy for the Court to remove.
This situation seems inequitable in our system, but it's been this way forever.

Gull and the Old D's might be testing new territory here. JMHO

This Defense is doing what they've done from Day 1, Shock and Awe strategy.

I'd be fine with RA representing himself given that he understand the rights and ramifications of doing such. He will get buried by the State, but hey, let Rick do Rick.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, agreed.
Old D has a lot of confidence in their client's case.
(And some excellent appellate attnys confidently cleared their schedules last week in support of the Old D.)

Sadly I think a lot of the players in this case are looking for their 15 minutes of fame, which is disgusting considering that there are 2 brutally murdered young girls here, Abby & Libby, who seem to have been lost in the circus.

MOO

 

[abams]

Sadly I think a lot of the players in this case are looking for their 15 minutes of fame, which is disgusting considering that there are 2 brutally murdered young girls here, Abby & Libby, who seem to have been lost in the circus.

MOO

Eh, if they get famous for protecting a defendant's constitutional rights, more power to them.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm bringing Judge Gull's document dump forward
Below it are the posts where I did a brief summary of each document
I did this for myself so there may be some small errors along the way.
Every doc is the full pdf so you can actually read it.
It's all in Thread #164, Thread Pgs 26, 31, 37, 38, 40, 40
Judge Gull's Document Dump June 27, 2023 (283 pgs)

State of Indiana v. Richard M. Allen | Allen Superior Court

allensuperiorcourt.us

Fox's Version with Full Docs

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

I downloaded this version, word searchable, page numbers
Ignore the words in the box; this link only shows my post
Pg 1 - pg 60

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

So I know LE is obviously not saying everything that goes on behind the scenes but I want to make sure I have all of this correct because it seems almost too maddening for me to believe: LE was aware that RA was on the bridge on the day of the murders at the approximate time that the girls were...

www.websleuths.com

Pg 61 - pg 100

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

@ Boxer was that you who though the suspect was wearing motorcycle boots and would any of the boots seized commonly fit that purpose, just curious.

www.websleuths.com

Pg 101- 120

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

This link for google drive was much easier for me to access. Ill self report to make sure it's ok for me to post this link https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Vayp845i-BxJpf2hVwl6K2fOqi5WqS7F Odd.... Appears I'm the only one that can't access this and I could have sworn I've accessed...

www.websleuths.com

pg 121- 210

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

IMO, the RL affidavit says that the FBI agent believed the girls didn't fight back, and the recently unsealed warrant affidavit says that LE believed RA led the girls to where he murdered them. The PCA mentions clothing from both victims being in the creek just south of where the bodies were...

www.websleuths.com

Pg 212-256

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

One more after this one, then I'm done going through the documents. The *** after an entry is a note to myself indicating an important one. https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf 212 = Def Supplemental Motion for Discovery 29 items (Dec 30, 2022) 219 =...

www.websleuths.com

Pg 258 - 283

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

One more after this one, then I'm done going through the documents. The *** after an entry is a note to myself indicating an important one. https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf 212 = Def Supplemental Motion for Discovery 29 items (Dec 30, 2022) 219 =...

www.websleuths.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

Here are links to the other 2 main docs we have:

Memorandum in support of Motion 9/18/2023 (136 pgs) Odin and SW

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

*******************
Record of Proceedings 10/30/2023 (240 pgs)
Dates, Motions and Page Numbers; Zip Drive of Doc Dump, CCS

Record of Proceedings.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

Just a little trivia: I usually don't post the automated notices; this one is interesting because JL's is different from the others. There have only been 2 automated paper notices; all the rest have been ENotices. The other one is to the Carroll Co. Sheriff's Dept. on 11/04/2022.

11/01/2023	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Received from the Indiana Supreme Court ---- 10/31/2023 : James David Luttrull
11/01/2023	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Received from the Indiana Supreme Court ---- 10/31/2023 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato