IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[mrjitty]

Agree, that 136 page document should have been 36 at the most IMO. The rest, extraneous, sensationalized information based on how they interpreted it, used to create public discord and outrage. "Look over there at bad, corrupt, conspiracy laden LE, not at our poor little Rick".

It also made me lol that Hennessy called it a work of art. Huh?

MOO

Exactly

But instead, in Frank's motion about a search warrant affidavit, the defence decided to claim that Odinist prison guards were in on the scheme to fit up their client for a crime he didn't commit.

How can such a wild allegation ever have anything to do with the search warrant which was written long before the defendant was even in that jail?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

So the defence made that up then?

Because IIRC it was in Rozzi's application

Rozzi does state that she alleged the FM included improper statements but after her objection to that in court on 10/31, the filing by CW says that she said the improper statements were in the Motion to Suppress. My understanding is that those are technically different but the Franks Hearing would support the Motion to Suppress? IANAL…

Rizzo:

CW:


However JG also says in the transcript she “never mentioned the motions”, which would refer to either the Franks or Suppression, so one of them is lying. Only the chambers meeting she doesn’t want to release will show the truth…

 

[Ravenmoon]

I find myself kind of wanting to follow this case less and less.

The biggest and most important reason that I have followed for so long has always been to see some modicum of justice to be served.

True justice cannot be, because the lives of 2 very young girls has been extinguished. There is no going back.

When RA was arrested, I was pretty happy for the girls and for theirs families. I have watched and read basically anything that I could obtain in reference to this case. Well, up until the last couple of months.

I don't want an innocent person to go to prison or to walk away with a red M painted on their forehead. It would likely cost them their lives.

I believe that RA is the correct man and is accurately accused. But, between the secrecy from the state and the antics of the exD, it is insanely disturbing to witness this side show that has nothing to do with Abby or Libby. Not anymore.

The state needs to cut the crud and offer much more transparency. Period.

The defense needs to stop the 3 ring circus.

If RA is somehow released on bail, what do his defenders think will happen?
My guess:

Suicide

OR


Someone assists in ending his life

OR

His family is going to pay for his release in terrible ways


OR

He makes a run for it.

Personally, I think that the trial should happen closer to the New Year than it is currently set for.
Everyone involved would be able to find out what the State has against him, and if he is found not guilty, we can know that he was tried by a jury of his peers.


Before anyone thinks that I am making it about anyone other than the girls, it isn't my intention. The people of Delphi have a right to know if a killer has been caught, or if the killer is still at large definitely. But it's Abby and Libby that paid the ultimate price.

I want to know why there is so much sympathy for RA. Where is the compassion and love for the families?

Why do people think they have the wrong man?
Actually, it seems people are certain he is not the killer. Please tell me WHY?

Other killers have maintained clean records prior to being arrested. That can't be the only thing that has people's minds made up?!


AS ALWAYS, JMO

 

[photographer4]

Can we agree it was a trigger for his decision to take his own life? Obviously we can say he would have some kind of mental health history just by the fact he made that tragic choice.

But I have no doubt that the visit by LE, asking about the leak of sealed court documents really scared him. He imagined the worst I suppose.

It blows my mind how people are shrugging and giving AB a pass for his obviously negligent behaviour which ended in tragedy. He shouldn't have been bouncing ideas around with MW concerning this trial, which was under a gag order. He shouldn't have allowed him to be poking around in private areas that had sealed documents in plain view. That was highly irresponsible and I think the higher courts may agree with Judge G's decision to replace them. JMO

We could say that they *could* have had a role in his subsequent suicide. But I'd like to know, we saw upthread a summary of events and it states a 911 call was placed from RF's home for "back pain" and then I think about 2 ish hours later, they're called again for a gun shot. What was going on really at the time of the first 911 call? Did EMS respond in person? Assess the patient? Was that call about our now deceased person who had been involved in the leak or was that about someone else entirely? What the heck was going on in that house at all when he killed himself?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Is there a past history of Odinist cults killing young girls in ritual sacrifices in recent memory?

This is exactly what I have been thinking.
I don't understand how this theory is holding any water with any person.
I don't see anything that aligns with the Odinism theory. Nothing.
None of us ( I hope) have seen the crime scene, but we have sketches and such.
There are no runes, no Fehu in blood... it's all made up.

Even so, the State has done their part early in the investigation. They lightly entertained the idea of some sort of cult involvement or influence. It didn't pan out.

I hope that the trial happens in 2024.


JMO

 

[sunshineray]

It is not a "may" have investigated the Odin Theory. FBI Agent Ferency did investigate the Odin angle.

What if I were to tell you that the alleged killer of FBI Agent Ferency retired from working at the US Penitentiary, Terre Haute, a high-security Fed prison, because he did?

Interesting, although not pertinent, what if I were to tell you that, ironically, the alleged killer has an uncanny resemblance of BH because he does?

What if I were to tell you that FBI Agent Greg Ferency is not the only targeted death of those involved in this horrific case because he's not?

I knew he was a former prison guard before I commented. He looks nothing like AB to me and even if he happen to, I see no connection back in 2021 to RA's lawyer starting in Oct 2022. We don't know that Ferency was specifically targeted. The perp threw a moltov cocktail at the FBI office and Ferency was one of multiple agents there. He just happen to come out the door first confronting the attacker. Again I see no connection to the Delphi case. AJMO

 

[duckcat]

This is exactly what I have been thinking.
I don't understand how this theory is holding any water with any person.
I don't see anything that aligns with the Odinism theory. Nothing.
None of us ( I hope) have seen the crime scene, but we have sketches and such.
There are no runes, no Fehu in blood... it's all made up.

Even so, the State has done their part early in the investigation. They lightly entertained the idea of some sort of cult involvement or influence. It didn't pan out.

I hope that the trial happens in 2024.


JMO

There’s a lot that we just don’t know about how these groups operate or what the motivations are. It’s certainly not a rational following of a religion, there isn’t a script, many things that occur are probably at odds with each other.

I am not fully sold on the Odinism angle, but as far as theorizing about it, I don’t think the crime occurred because of Odinism, rather that Odinism was the means for whatever the purpose was. In this area the “Soldiers of Odin” groups are synonymous with gangs, and that shared “brotherhood” of rituals enables groupthink to carry out heinous acts for $ at the behest of someone more powerful than you. It’s not a surprise that most members are veterans seeking purpose. The fake Odinism is the means, the larger purpose that calms any ounce of conscience that might stop you, similar to how soldiers carry out war crimes in Guantanamo bay for example. Some big cheese in a crime wheel wants something done, he can count on his brainwashed soldiers of Odin.

I truly cannot fathom what that purpose would be here, but that’s what makes organized crime difficult to understand. Entirely different rules and language. There have of course been various rumors over the years—meth, gang wars, Flora Fire, pedophiles (it’s a fact that BP was the appraiser and is a witness in that case), it goes on. All avenues are actually based in truth unfortunately.

This is an article about how Odinism started forming in prisons with a story somewhat parallel: Supreme Court Requires Prisons Give Special Consideration to Racist Pagans

One chilling example of Odinism in prison gone haywire is the case in Virginia of Michael Lenz, a self-described high priest of Asatru. In 2000, he and five Asatruer inmates met around a makeshift altar for a "blot," in which followers make an offering of food and drink to the gods. As Lenz would later testify, he became convinced that inmate Brent Parker was not taking the ceremony seriously and had to die to protect the honor of the gods. Lenz and another inmate, Jeffrey Remington, stabbed Parker 68 times with a makeshift knife. Lenz was executed for the murder in 2006; Remington committed suicide in 2004 while on death row.

 

[Ravenmoon]

There’s a lot that we just don’t know about how these groups operate or what the motivations are. It’s certainly not a rational following of a religion, there isn’t a script, many things that occur are probably at odds with each other. I am not fully sold on the Odinism angle, but as far as theorizing about it, I don’t think the crime occurred because of Odinism, rather that odisnism was the means for a different purpose. In this area the “Soldiers of Odin” groups are synonymous with gangs, and that shared “brotherhood” of rituals enables groupthink to carry out heinous acts for $ at the behest of someone more powerful than you. It’s not a surprise that most members are veterans seeking purpose. The fake Odinism is the means, the larger purpose that calms any ounce of conscience that might stop you, similar to how soldiers carry out war crimes in Guantanamo bay for example.

This is an article about how Odinism started forming in prisons with a story somewhat parallel: Supreme Court Requires Prisons Give Special Consideration to Racist Pagans

I appreciate the link.

I still can't see why L&A would specifically targeted.

My mind can't sign on to a group of people waiting in the woods for 2 young white kids to fall into their trap. The group would also realize that people would likely be in the park throughout the day.

If A& L were targeted personally, that's even more farfetched. They would have had to anticipate the girls would become vulnerable on the end of the bridge and no one else would be witness to it.

I just can't apply the theory of Odinists gangs being responsible.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I find myself kind of wanting to follow this case less and less.

The biggest and most important reason that I have followed for so long has always been to see some modicum of justice to be served.

True justice cannot be, because the lives of 2 very young girls has been extinguished. There is no going back.

When RA was arrested, I was pretty happy for the girls and for theirs families. I have watched and read basically anything that I could obtain in reference to this case. Well, up until the last couple of months.

I don't want an innocent person to go to prison or to walk away with a red M painted on their forehead. It would likely cost them their lives.

I believe that RA is the correct man and is accurately accused. But, between the secrecy from the state and the antics of the exD, it is insanely disturbing to witness this side show that has nothing to do with Abby or Libby. Not anymore.

The state needs to cut the crud and offer much more transparency. Period.

The defense needs to stop the 3 ring circus.

If RA is somehow released on bail, what do his defenders think will happen?
My guess:

Suicide

OR


Someone assists in ending his life

OR

His family is going to pay for his release in terrible ways


OR

He makes a run for it.

Personally, I think that the trial should happen closer to the New Year than it is currently set for.
Everyone involved would be able to find out what the State has against him, and if he is found not guilty, we can know that he was tried by a jury of his peers.


Before anyone thinks that I am making it about anyone other than the girls, it isn't my intention. The people of Delphi have a right to know if a killer has been caught, or if the killer is still at large definitely. But it's Abby and Libby that paid the ultimate price.

I want to know why there is so much sympathy for RA. Where is the compassion and love for the families?

Why do people think they have the wrong man?
Actually, it seems people are certain he is not the killer. Please tell me WHY?

Other killers have maintained clean records prior to being arrested. That can't be the only thing that has people's minds made up?!


AS ALWAYS, JMO

It really does feel like opposite world sometimes. I'm with you, I don't understand the sympathy for an accused child murderer <modsnip - not charge with that at this time> one bit. I want him to have the bare minimum of basic rights while incarcerated, a fair trial and competent defense, but that's it. That's the limit of me caring about him as a human being.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

I appreciate the link.

I still can't see why L&A would specifically targeted.

My mind can't sign on to a group of people waiting in the woods for 2 young white kids to fall into their trap. The group would also realize that people would likely be in the park throughout the day.

If A& L were targeted personally, that's even more farfetched. They would have had to anticipate the girls would become vulnerable on the end of the bridge and no one else would be witness to it.

I just can't apply the theory of Odinists gangs being responsible.

JMO

Targeted or not, how does one reconcile guilty knowledge of a crime scene before details have even been released as per interviews conducted by LE?

Ritual murder exists. Now whether or not the individuals who committed the crime were trying to pin the murder on a specific group by employing the staging and runes they saw on someone’s website, that is a reasonable question. Unfortunately, many possible leads were never fully investigated, just thrown into the “nothing to see here” pile. It may be difficult if not impossible to follow up on those now six + years on.

As others here have stated, there’s much more to the Franks memo than the Odinism. I look forward to seeing all of it tried in a court of law. I’m curious as to why some are shocked that it has made some of us question RA’s guilt? Or, that it may invoke some compassion for him and his poor family. It is not uncommon for innocent people to be incarcerated unjustly on faulty evidence. It happens far too often. JMHO

Please do not misunderstand. I have unlimited compassion for the girls and their families. They deserve justice for what happened.

 

[girlhasnoname]

bbm- all she has gone on record with is denying that the FM was part of her reason for removing them, in the 10/31 transcript.
View attachment 459893

Right it was the leaking by AB's good friend of the Crime Scene photos and depositions that we know of so far. Which is gross misconduct IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

It happens to most suspects accused of brutal murders. They are considered a possible danger to the community.

If he has confessed to his wife they are going to be concerned about releasing him until his trial is over. JMO

You are always so succinct and wise. This is exactly it. The State, the Court and LE must all work together to make sure no witnesses come to harm.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It really does feel like opposite world sometimes. I'm with you, I don't understand the sympathy for an accused child murderer a<modsnip - not charge with that at this time one bit. I want him to have the bare minimum of basic rights while incarcerated, a fair trial and competent defense, but that's it. That's the limit of me caring about him as a human being.

MOO

Yes, it's certainly more caring than Abby & Libby were afforded. He took their lives in a violent, vicious and cold manner. I can't even begin to imagine the fear and pain they endured. He destroyed all of the girls' future hopes and dreams while leaving their families and loved ones with nothing but heartache and pain and more questions than anyone should ever have to try and answer.

Yet he went along with his life, working at the local CVS, playing pool and hanging at the local pub like nothing happened. It's just unfathomable and I hope and pray justice is finally served for Libby and Abby, the true victims here.

MOO

 

[zh0r4]

It really does feel like opposite world sometimes. I'm with you, I don't understand the sympathy for an accused child murderer <modsnip - not charge with that at this time> one bit. I want him to have the bare minimum of basic rights while incarcerated, a fair trial and competent defense, but that's it. That's the limit of me caring about him as a human being.

MOO

IMO unless there is DNA evidence, I don’t assume anyone is a child murderer without a trial.

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

 

[girlhasnoname]

Rozzi does state that she alleged the FM included improper statements but after her objection to that in court on 10/31, the filing by CW says that she said the improper statements were in the Motion to Suppress. My understanding is that those are technically different but the Franks Hearing would support the Motion to Suppress? IANAL…

Rizzo:
View attachment 459902
CW:
View attachment 459900

However JG also says in the transcript she “never mentioned the motions”, which would refer to either the Franks or Suppression, so one of them is lying. Only the chambers meeting she doesn’t want to release will show the truth…

Judge Gull said she wasn't talking about the Franks Memorandum when she made the ruling of gross misconduct. She could have had an opinion of them including improper information in it, yet her decision to have them withdraw was based on other gross misconduct is how I am reading it, according to the hearing she held on Oct 31st.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I find myself kind of wanting to follow this case less and less.

The biggest and most important reason that I have followed for so long has always been to see some modicum of justice to be served.

True justice cannot be, because the lives of 2 very young girls has been extinguished. There is no going back.

When RA was arrested, I was pretty happy for the girls and for theirs families. I have watched and read basically anything that I could obtain in reference to this case. Well, up until the last couple of months.

I don't want an innocent person to go to prison or to walk away with a red M painted on their forehead. It would likely cost them their lives.

I believe that RA is the correct man and is accurately accused. But, between the secrecy from the state and the antics of the exD, it is insanely disturbing to witness this side show that has nothing to do with Abby or Libby. Not anymore.

The state needs to cut the crud and offer much more transparency. Period.

The defense needs to stop the 3 ring circus.

If RA is somehow released on bail, what do his defenders think will happen?
My guess:

Suicide

OR


Someone assists in ending his life

OR

His family is going to pay for his release in terrible ways


OR

He makes a run for it.

Personally, I think that the trial should happen closer to the New Year than it is currently set for.
Everyone involved would be able to find out what the State has against him, and if he is found not guilty, we can know that he was tried by a jury of his peers.


Before anyone thinks that I am making it about anyone other than the girls, it isn't my intention. The people of Delphi have a right to know if a killer has been caught, or if the killer is still at large definitely. But it's Abby and Libby that paid the ultimate price.

I want to know why there is so much sympathy for RA. Where is the compassion and love for the families?

Why do people think they have the wrong man?
Actually, it seems people are certain he is not the killer. Please tell me WHY?

Other killers have maintained clean records prior to being arrested. That can't be the only thing that has people's minds made up?!


AS ALWAYS, JMO

I agree, mostly. If you've followed any big trials in the last few years, you'll see more and more that defense attorneys try to use social media to promote false information about the state's case prior to trial.

The most fair and accurate venue for presenting evidence and arguments about a terrible crime is in the court room. There a judge presides, makes sure rules are followed. The process allows for everything to be discussed in a factual manner, with both sides represented and expert testimony.

Today, defense attorneys like to release as many details as possible via social media, using it to distort facts and spread rumors and conspiracy theories. Prosecution teams are held to much stricter rules and know its better to wait until they can argue their case in the unbiased environment of a courtroom. For that reason, judges need to keep much of the details about the crime under a gag order until its time to present both sides in court. It's the only way to guarantee a fair trial.

In the old days, the news media was the primary source of information and most (not all) adhered to ethical guidelines. Today, any fool can spin rumors and CT on YouTube or other social media.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Targeted or not, how does one reconcile guilty knowledge of a crime scene before details have even been released as per interviews conducted by LE?

Ritual murder exists. Now whether or not the individuals who committed the crime were trying to pin the murder on a specific group by employing the staging and runes they saw on someone’s website, that is a reasonable question. Unfortunately, many possible leads were never fully investigated, just thrown into the “nothing to see here” pile. It may be difficult if not impossible to follow up on those now six + years on.

As others here have stated, there’s much more to the Franks memo than the Odinism. I look forward to seeing all of it tried in a court of law. I’m curious as to why some are shocked that it has made some of us question RA’s guilt? Or, that it may invoke some compassion for him and his poor family. It is not uncommon for innocent people to be incarcerated unjustly on faulty evidence. It happens far too often. JMHO

Please do not misunderstand. I have unlimited compassion for the girls and their families. They deserve justice for what happened.

If this guilty knowledge is supposed to be regarding EF, it just isn't true.
Could you elaborate on what that actually consists of?

Ritual murder does exist. I just don't see it in this case.


JMO

 

[zh0r4]

If this guilty knowledge is supposed to be regarding EF, it just isn't true.
Could you elaborate on what that actually consists of?

Ritual murder does exist. I just don't see it in this case.


JMO

Where is there proof EF was properly cleared? Both of his sisters (names redacted) passed a polygraph re: what they said he told them which some only someone who was there would know. The ISP officer that conducted the polygraph is now dead.

Source re: ISP Thompson’s death in a nefarious fire:
Cause of Indiana house fire that killed state trooper, daughter remains unknown

Source for the pics:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Yes it does, thank you. I have been trying to figure this out.

What’s interesting to me is at the time the Frank’s memo was filed the defense had not yet met with this expert forensic pathologist.

 

[susiQ]

If this guilty knowledge is supposed to be regarding EF, it just isn't true.
Could you elaborate on what that actually consists of?

Ritual murder does exist. I just don't see it in this case.


JMO

Well, that’s left to be seen. No doubt there’s still lots to come before this case sees a trial.
Try pages 97 & 98 of the Franks memo. We may not agree on this, and that’s fine.