IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

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  • #661
I didn’t say ALL pagans practice Odinism. However, Odinism does fall under paganism.

Yes.......my original point was that Paganism isn't the same thing as Odinism.

That would be the equivalent of Catholicism equaling Mormonism.

The guards who wore the patches have said that they are not Odinists.


JMO
 
  • #662
It has been addressed already. RA should never have been sent to Westville. We have no idea exactly how he was treated by the guards this entire time nor what the prisoners were allowed to do. We do know the guards with Odin patches tased him twice. RA is probably mistreated the entire time. Look how they bring him into court dressed and shackled like no presumed innocent defendant I've seen. Compare his treatment to BryanKohberger and it's night and day.

MOO

Since RA already confessed to the murders a month prior, the tasing can’t be blamed on a forced confession. Certainly the ex-D are aware of the specific reason that prompted the two incidents and if unwarranted, how odd they’re not proclaiming WHY RA was tasered without cause. No, instead they just broadly lay it out there and allow RA sympathizers to fill in the blanks assuming it must be because he’s mistreated since they said so.

IMO knowing of factual information prior to forming an opinion is important but when it’s not offered it’s most always because it contradicts the viewpoint as presented. JMO

“In the 3 April phone call, from the Westville Correctional Facility where the accused killer is being held awaiting trial, Mr Allen allegedly admitted “several times” that he carried out the brutal murders.
“On April 3, 2023, Richard M. Allen made a phone call to his wife Kathy Allen,” the court documents read.
“In that phone call, Richard M. Allen admits several times that he killed Abby and Libby.“

“As for using a Taser on Allen, the guards confirmed they employed a Taser twice between May 9, 2023, and May 25, 2023. Allen’s attorneys argued that these were retaliatory measures meant to threaten or intimidate Allen. The guards contended Allen “was tased twice” because “we could not get him to comply with our orders.”
 
  • #663
Yes.......my original point was that Paganism isn't the same thing as Odinism.

That would be the equivalent of Catholicism equaling Mormonism.

The guards who wore the patches have said that they are not Odinists.


JMO
Yes, and all Pagans, Odinists, or whatever spiritual practice one chooses to follow are not all evil or all good.

I have to wonder if the guards were wearing crosses on their uniforms or on chains around their necks, would this have been an issue?

MOO
 
  • #664
Since RA already confessed to the murders a month prior, the tasing can’t be blamed on a forced confession. Certainly the ex-D are aware of the specific reason that prompted the two incidents and if unwarranted, how odd they’re not proclaiming WHY RA was tasered without cause. No, instead they just broadly lay it out there and allow RA sympathizers to fill in the blanks assuming it must be because he’s mistreated since they said so.

IMO knowing of factual information prior to forming an opinion is important but when it’s not offered it’s most always because it contradicts the viewpoint as presented. JMO

“In the 3 April phone call, from the Westville Correctional Facility where the accused killer is being held awaiting trial, Mr Allen allegedly admitted “several times” that he carried out the brutal murders.
“On April 3, 2023, Richard M. Allen made a phone call to his wife Kathy Allen,” the court documents read.
“In that phone call, Richard M. Allen admits several times that he killed Abby and Libby.“

“As for using a Taser on Allen, the guards confirmed they employed a Taser twice between May 9, 2023, and May 25, 2023. Allen’s attorneys argued that these were retaliatory measures meant to threaten or intimidate Allen. The guards contended Allen “was tased twice” because “we could not get him to comply with our orders.”
Exactly, RA had already confessed to the murders on a recorded phone line, then that was a win win for the Evil Odinists. They would have had no reason to taser him unnecessarily almost a month and a half afterwards.

MOO
 
  • #665
Yes, and all Pagans, Odinists, or whatever spiritual practice one chooses to follow are not all evil or all good.

I have to wonder if the guards were wearing crosses on their uniforms or on chains around their necks, would this have been an issue?

MOO


Fantastic point!
It's my understanding that many of these patches that have been the center of attention are worn by Veterans and LE because they symbolize honor and comaraderie.

JMO
 
  • #666
Just to allow some insight:

Pagans believe that nature is sacred and that the natural cycles of birth, growth and death observed in the world around us carry profoundly spiritual meanings. Human beings are seen as part of nature, along with other animals, trees, stones, plants and everything else that is of this earth.

Source:

 
  • #667
rsbm but "...They are alleging that LE acted in bad faith to implicate RA while willfully ignoring the Rushville angle."

They tried to implicate someone who admits he was at the scene, looks like Bridge Guy, lives a mile from the CS, and has a matching pistol? Seems like RA has implicated his own self about as well as anybody could.

So tell me this: Ricky was there, fishwatching and talking to his stockbrokers, at the same approximate time, right? So why didn't he see these pagan orthodontists, and tell police that he saw them--bravely decked out in their prison-guard finery and wearing caps that said "Make Odin great again"--that he saw them marching two girls down the hill? Didn't think it was important enough to be worth mentioning?

Is it just me or is that hard to believe?
I find it very interesting that in order to discount the defense theory as ridiculous, one has to misrepresent it in pretty much every way. Nice job also cutting out my post to make it look like I’m arguing the truth of the defense theory rather than making an argument about legal relevance.

admits he was at the scene,
in his 2022 interview said he was at the bridge 12pm-1:30pm. Dan Dulins notes in 2017 said 1:30pm-3:30pm. Dulin didnt bother to record the conversation, so no one knows what RA actually told him in 2017.
looks like Bridge Guy,
Not enough for anyone in Delphi to consider that it was him for the past 5 years as he worked a public facing job, and not according to BB, whose witness sketch looks nothing like RA and whose sketch was “primary” to the investigation per LE. But sure yeah RA does look like a blurry man wearing hiking clothes.
lives a mile from the CS,
that sure narrows it down
and has a matching pistol
he has pistol they claim once held a bullet 5 years ago matched using a method which fails to identify a firearm 30-50% of the time even when the bullet had been fired, and which forensic scientists agree is heavily subjective based on the individual performing the identification, and which some jurisdictions do not allow to be testified to in trials based on the lack of reliable evidence.

 
  • #668
It has been addressed already. RA should never have been sent to Westville. We have no idea exactly how he was treated by the guards this entire time nor what the prisoners were allowed to do. We do know the guards with Odin patches tased him twice. RA is probably mistreated the entire time. Look how they bring him into court dressed and shackled like no presumed innocent defendant I've seen. Compare his treatment to BryanKohberger and it's night and day.

MOO

This is what I was looking for. We simply do NOT know the guards with Odin patches tasked him twice. That more likely falls under the ‘colourful and dramatic’ category practised by the ex-D.

BBM
“In Thursday's response, the state said the "colorful and dramatic" request from the defense in not correct and there is no threat to Richard Allen in the Westville Correctional Facility.….

…..The two officers named by the defense signed affidavits for the state stating they never harassed Richard Allen nor had one-on-one interactions with Allen. They also state neither had conversations with Allen that were not recorded…”
 
  • #669
I find it very interesting that in order to discount the defense theory as ridiculous, one has to misrepresent it in pretty much every way. Nice job also cutting out my post to make it look like I’m arguing the truth of the defense theory rather than making an argument about legal relevance.


in his 2022 interview said he was at the bridge 12pm-1:30pm. Dan Dulins notes in 2017 said 1:30pm-3:30pm. Dulin didnt bother to record the conversation, so no one knows what RA actually told him in 2017.

Not enough for anyone in Delphi to consider that it was him for the past 5 years as he worked a public facing job, and not according to BB, whose witness sketch looks nothing like RA and whose sketch was “primary” to the investigation per LE. But sure yeah RA does look like a blurry man wearing hiking clothes.

that sure narrows it down

he has pistol they claim once held a bullet 5 years ago matched using a method which fails to identify a firearm 30-50% of the time even when the bullet had been fired, and which forensic scientists agree is heavily subjective based on the individual performing the identification, and which some jurisdictions do not allow to be testified to in trials based on the lack of reliable evidence.

Indiana does allow ballistic firearms testimony. It is thought to be subjective, but I feel confident the State and the Defense will have their own 'experts' addressing the issue during trial. It will up to the jury to decide what credit(or not) they give to the testimonies.

JMO
 
  • #670
<snipped>
in his 2022 interview said he was at the bridge 12pm-1:30pm. Dan Dulins notes in 2017 said 1:30pm-3:30pm. Dulin didnt bother to record the conversation, so no one knows what RA actually told him in 2017.

RA was again interviewed October 13, 2022 (same day as SW) but I notice the memo only mentions the initial unrecorded conversation in 2017. During this important hour and a half (iirc) interview we have to believe a specific time was not ever talked about by RA nor what he did before or after his trail visit? I have a real difficult time believing that, reconfirming a timeframe is LE 101.

Very convenient IMO that the ex-D didn’t claim an alternate timeframe was further established in this key interview prior to the SW, only in the much earlier unrecorded one. JMO

Allen was again interviewed by investigators on Oct. 13 of this year. He said he was on the trails on Feb. 13, 2017. He said he saw juvenile girls on the trails east of the Freedom Bridge. He said he went to the High Bridge to watch the fish. He stated that he walked back, sat on a bench on the trail and then left. He said he was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black jacket with a hood. Allen also said he owns firearms and they were at his home.”
 
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  • #671
RA was again interviewed October 13th but I notice the memo only mentions the initial unrecorded conversation in 2017. During this following hour and a half (iirc) interview we have to believe no time was ever mentioned nor what RA did before or after his trail visit? I have a real difficult time believing that, reconfirming a timeframe is LE 101. JMO

Allen was again interviewed by investigators on Oct. 13 of this year. He said he was on the trails on Feb. 13, 2017. He said he saw juvenile girls on the trails east of the Freedom Bridge. He said he went to the High Bridge to watch the fish. He stated that he walked back, sat on a bench on the trail and then left. He said he was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black jacket with a hood. Allen also said he owns firearms and they were at his home.”
The franks memo says that in 2022 he says he was there 12pm-1:30pm and they cite timestamps. Liggett didn’t mention that part in his PCA.

IMG_0873.jpeg
of course, one could allege that the defense is making up what RA said at those timestamps, but I highly doubt they would lie about something that could be easily shown to be false in one of the most viewed pieces of evidence in the case.
 
  • #672
This is what I was looking for. We simply do NOT know the guards with Odin patches tasked him twice. That more likely falls under the ‘colourful and dramatic’ category practised by the ex-D.

BBM
“In Thursday's response, the state said the "colorful and dramatic" request from the defense in not correct and there is no threat to Richard Allen in the Westville Correctional Facility.….

…..The two officers named by the defense signed affidavits for the state stating they never harassed Richard Allen nor had one-on-one interactions with Allen. They also state neither had conversations with Allen that were not recorded…”
The prosecution does seem to state that one of the Odin patch wearing guards did tase RA. They say it just wasn’t out of spite or anger or intimidation.
IMG_0874.jpeg
 
  • #673
So now that you can see that RA confessed on April 3, 2023.
Would you please circle back around to your incorrect statement bolded below?

Why do you believe RA’s statement was coerced when it was made months prior to the alleged abuse by the guards?

[sbbm]

I think we can all agree that the docket in this case is in disarray. After all, there's an action in state supreme court to fix it. Attorneys and national media outlets have done their level best to provide us with copies of these official records. Please see this 3-page letter in the document package provided to the public by fox59 drafted to the court by inmate Robert Baston.
Screen Shot 2023-11-14 at 2.36.17 PM.pngScreen Shot 2023-11-14 at 2.38.42 PM.png

You have to scroll down quite far to reach this, as the documents in the link are loaded as one long document. I am not attaching this to ask you to vet it or subscribe to it. I attach it only in response to your comment above. Please note the date (mid-April) and filing (late April) of this letter.

According to this witness, RA was being abused in April - likely before (remember this is dated 4/11), and likely well after. jmo. People certainly do not have to take this inmate at his word but as far as the post was concerned that referenced him being abused as of April and likely May, June, and beyond. April has been corroborated by this - unless and until it's not. This letter is a part of the official case file in this proceeding.

jmo

 
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  • #674
The franks memo says that in 2022 he says he was there 12pm-1:30pm and they cite timestamps. Liggett didn’t mention that part in his PCA.

View attachment 460891
of course, one could allege that the defense is making up what RA said at those timestamps, but I highly doubt they would lie about something that could be easily shown to be false in one of the most viewed pieces of evidence in the case.

This is a prime example of a ex-D allegation that’s deserving of arguments between both sides, referring to interview transcripts during the trial.

I don’t understand why on earth RA assumed on Oct 13, 2022 he was being asked to ‘assist’ when he already claimed in 2017 he hadn’t seen the girls? If indeed he was there from noon to 1:30pm by 2022 he‘d be aware he left before they ever arrived as it was public knowledge by that time that KG dropped them off later than 1:30pm.

However I’m quite certain RA was also questioned about his recollect of before and after activities during that same day, which LE would seek to confirm especially if it was believed he was intentionally manipulating his timeline.

Just to add, many of us wondered why LE was so vague about the timeline early on, when the girls were dropped off or when they were supposed to be picked up was stretched from 1pm to 5pm iirc. This is an example which emphasizes why LE doesn’t always disclose all the details right away. JMO
 
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  • #675
The prosecution does seem to state that one of the Odin patch wearing guards did tase RA. They say it just wasn’t out of spite or anger or intimidation.
View attachment 460894

Eek, tased (not tasked!) in my quoted post. I’m more interested in why the ex-D has withheld the specific reason RA was tased, ie what rule he broke. Why not tell all to prove he was being mistreated because tasing alone doesn’t prove anything if it was justified.

It makes me wonder if the undisclosed reason leans toward violent hot-head behaviour, contradicting the perception of a meek and mild little man who wouldn’t harm anyone. JMO
 
  • #676
This is a prime example of a ex-D allegation that’s deserving of arguments between both sides, referring to interview transcripts during the trial.

I don’t understand why on earth RA assumed on Oct 13, 2022 he was being asked to ‘assist’ when he already claimed in 2017 he hadn’t seen the girls? If indeed he was there from noon to 1:30pm by 2022 he‘d be aware he left before they ever arrived as it was public knowledge by that time that KG dropped them off later than 1:30pm.

However I’m quite certain RA was also questioned about his recollect of before and after activities during that same day, which LE would seek to confirm especially if it was believed he was intentionally manipulating his timeline.

Just to add, many of us wondered why LE was so vague about the timeline early on, when the girls were dropped off or when they were supposed to be picked up was stretched from 1pm to 5pm iirc. This is an example which emphasizes why LE doesn’t always disclose all the details right away. JMO
Probably because investigators "invited" Richard Allen and his wife, Kathy Allen, to speak to them and to follow up on that interview done in 2017.

State's Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress
pg 2
Judge Gull's document dump
 
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  • #677
So now that you can see that RA confessed on April 3, 2023.
Would you please circle back around to your incorrect statement bolded below?
Why do you believe RA’s statement was coerced when it was made months prior to the alleged abuse by the guards?
If he had already confessed to the crime, what purpose would the guards have in abuse? If the goal was to coerce his confessions?
I wonder when RA found out they had his DNA from the CS? Could that be the reason he confessed?
 
  • #678
Probably because investigators "invited" Richard Allen and his wife, Kathy Allen, to speak to them and to follow up on that interview done id 2017.

State's Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress
pg 2
Judge Gull's document dump

Another possibility, if he was there between 1:30 and 3:30pm, stating that time earlier when he didn’t know it was significant, he‘d learn he self-incriminated himself. So rather than assisting, it was also an opportunity for him to confuse the timeline, claiming he left before the girls arrived….which in turn leaves nothing he could’ve assisted with.

JMO
 
  • #679
I wonder when RA found out they had his DNA from the CS? Could that be the reason he confessed?

It appears the dates closely coincided to eating paperwork although the exact date isn’t given.

“On April 3, 2023, Richard M Allen made a phone call to his wife Kathy Allen. In that phone call, Richard M Allen admits several times that he killed Abby and Libby. Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard M Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses (sic) as charged. His wife, Kathy Allen, ends the phone call abruptly."….

…"Richard M Allen was wetting down and paperwork he had gotten from his attorneys and eating it, he was refusing to eat and refusing to sleep. He would go days of refusing to sleep. He further broke the tablet that he used for text messages and phone calls. He went from making up to two phone calls a day as of April 3, 2023 to not making any phone calls at all.”
 
  • #680
I wonder when RA found out they had his DNA from the CS? Could that be the reason he confessed?

Wait! What??!! They have RA's DNA from the crime scene??!! I thought that was a big NO THEY DON'T.
 
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