IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[zh0r4]

I am Pagan.
I don't practice Odinism.
Odinism falls under the umbrella of paganism.
99.99 percent of Pagans DO NOT practice Odinism.

Just to add, criminals in general can operate under any the umbrella of religion. It’s the crime that matters to me. JMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

December 2012 GIS - FWIW - Crime Scene ... aerial w/ parcels. (For a winter season view)

 

[Emma Peel]

Same, Dec 2012, longer view w/ bridge

 

[zh0r4]

Does anyone know what the typical sentence for child sex abuse is in Indiana? TIA

bbm

“Superior Court Judge Frances Gull on Friday sentenced 42-year-old Branden Shaw to serve two years in prison and three years probation.

As part of a plea deal in November, Shaw pleaded guilty to sexual misconduct with a minor and vicarious sexual gratification with a child between the ages of 13 and 16. Two less-serious charges were dismissed.”

Source:
Ex-Fort Wayne probation officer gets 2 years in prison for sexual misconduct with boy (2023)

Ex-Fort Wayne probation officer gets 2 years in prison for sexual misconduct with boy

The former probation officer was also sentenced to three years probation.

www.wfft.com

 

[Ravenmoon]

Other than the one reason I already mentioned, I believe the girls were ushered into a waiting vehicle at the private drive. I believe more people were involved, <modsnip> as well as others.
<modsnip: no source link>
MOO

Gray says that DG parked at approximately 3:14, and walked along the 501 trail until he got to the intersection where it meets the 505. This is where he met FSG who claimed to have seen a couple on the bridge.

He followed the 505 trail until it reached the creek.
He proceeded to call Becky at 3:30 to say he couldn't find the girls.
He then turned around and walked to the freedom bridge. There was no sign of the girls.

He also said that KG and CP Crossed the bridge and went to several houses to ask if anyone had seen A and L. They only spoke to one person.

I can't find any information that says DG was directly across from the CS.

GH said that KG and CP were probably fairly close, but would never have known to look across the creek.

The murders were likely done by 3:30 by accounts from LE.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just to add, criminals in general can operate under any the umbrella of religion. It’s the crime that matters to me. JMO.

Nice that we agree on this.
The " Odin" patches seem to be brought up often.
I wear a cross/ crucifix because I see it as a symbol of life after death. I wonder how often I am mistaken as Catholic?

EBM for spelling


JMO

 

[Betty P]

David Camm

Camm To Be Released When Family Raises Bail

A new twist in the case against triple murder suspect David Camm. The former Indiana State Trooper will be getting out of jail on bond, as he awaits retrial on charges he murdered his family. WAVE 3 Investigator <a href="mailto:[email protected]">Eric Flack</a> has reaction on Wednesday's court...

www.wave3.com

If local LE are so corrupt, why didn't they "frame" someone much sooner?

There were so many people in LE from state and federal level agencies, massive news and social media coverage. With all that oversight, I doubt any detectives rigged the game to accuse RA and force him to confess. Everyone was watching.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

11/14/2023

Order Issued The Court has recently reviewed the Chronological Case Summary (CCS) in this cause and notes that the Clerk of the Court has not yet made available to the public on the CCS the 118 documents previously made remotely accessible by Court Order of June 28, 2023. The Court previously created a website for these documents as a convenience to the public and the Clerk and to ensure the public had prompt remote access to these documents. The Clerk is ordered to enter these documents on the CCS forthwith. The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS. The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing. Finally, the Clerk is ordered to place and make accessible on the CCS former attorneys' pleadings of October 25, 2023, and October 26, 2023. As noted in its prior order, the Court considers these pleadings stricken from the record and will not consider those pleadings as the attorneys who filed same are no longer counsel of record. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Scremin, Robert Cliff Noticed: Lebrato, William Santino Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 11/14/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[MistyWaters]

11/14/2023

Order Issued The Court has recently reviewed the Chronological Case Summary (CCS) in this cause and notes that the Clerk of the Court has not yet made available to the public on the CCS the 118 documents previously made remotely accessible by Court Order of June 28, 2023. The Court previously created a website for these documents as a convenience to the public and the Clerk and to ensure the public had prompt remote access to these documents. The Clerk is ordered to enter these documents on the CCS forthwith. The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS. The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing. Finally, the Clerk is ordered to place and make accessible on the CCS former attorneys' pleadings of October 25, 2023, and October 26, 2023. As noted in its prior order, the Court considers these pleadings stricken from the record and will not consider those pleadings as the attorneys who filed same are no longer counsel of record. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Scremin, Robert Cliff Noticed: Lebrato, William Santino Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 11/14/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Appears reasonable to me. I noticed the reference to “defendant’s new council” and “former council”, seems quite final and a disappointment to some no doubt.

 

[zh0r4]

l

11/14/2023

Order Issued The Court has recently reviewed the Chronological Case Summary (CCS) in this cause and notes that the Clerk of the Court has not yet made available to the public on the CCS the 118 documents previously made remotely accessible by Court Order of June 28, 2023. The Court previously created a website for these documents as a convenience to the public and the Clerk and to ensure the public had prompt remote access to these documents. The Clerk is ordered to enter these documents on the CCS forthwith. The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS. The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing. Finally, the Clerk is ordered to place and make accessible on the CCS former attorneys' pleadings of October 25, 2023, and October 26, 2023. As noted in its prior order, the Court considers these pleadings stricken from the record and will not consider those pleadings as the attorneys who filed same are no longer counsel of record. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Scremin, Robert Cliff Noticed: Lebrato, William Santino Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 11/14/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Wait didn’t JG ask the clerk to strike things from the record at one point? Now she’s calling the clerk out for doing so? I’m confused.

 

[TheVisual]

The Memo notes the body was largely free of blood and makes a song and dance about how this might be.

A body hung from a tree to bleed out would drip and run via gravity i.e the head and hair would be stained and soaked. I've seen this in other cases with head wounds where the victim is lying - the hair gets soaked.

Furthermore a body hung from a rope will likely have markings on the ankles or legs where the rope bites.

The defence obviously made this part up.

I simply include it as to the counter the suggestion the defence would not lie or resort to fabrication.

Here we have a specific example of fabulation.

Unless THEY collected the blood.

 

[Emma Peel]

There's more than one way that folks can interpret these events.
For example, take the same events, wear a political lens:

If local LE are so corrupt, why didn't they "frame" someone much sooner?

because they were waiting for an election year?

There were so many people in LE from state and federal level agencies, massive news and social media coverage. With all that oversight, I doubt any detectives rigged the game to accuse RA and force him to confess.

just rigged the timing of the game, perhaps?

Everyone was watching.

and so, that's the time to make your move!

 

[MistyWaters]

So iirc the Judge has been accused of hiding the Frank’s motion but the fact of the matter is it’s been marked as confidential on the CCS as the D has failed to supply a redacted copy. Interesting to learn the other side of the story as a whole lot of needless blame about this has been directed her way. JMO

“The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing.”

 

[MistyWaters]

There's more than one way that folks can interpret these events.
For example, take the same events, wear a political lens:



because they were waiting for an election year?



just rigged the timing of the game, perhaps?



and so, that's the time to make your move!

What did an election year prove? Leazenby lost.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

So iirc the Judge has been accused of hiding the Frank’s motion but the fact of the matter is it’s been marked as confidential on the CCS as the D has failed to supply a redacted copy. Interesting to learn the other side of the story as a whole lot of needless blame about this has been directed her way. JMO

“The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing.”

However she doesn’t note what needs to be redacted. Per Indiana court rules for public access, nothing I can think of in the document should be excluded from public access. Even if the Memorandum needs to be redacted, it doesn’t follow that the Motion needs to be sealed until the Memo is unsealed.

Rule 5
“(C) Personal Information of Litigants, Witnesses, and Children:
(1) Unless necessary to the disposition of the case, the following information shall be redacted, and no notice of exclusion from Public Access is required:
(a) Complete Social Security Numbers of living persons;
(b) Complete account numbers, personal identification numbers, and passwords.
If the information is necessary to the disposition of the case, the document containing the confidential information shall be filed on green paper (if paper filing) or filed as a confidential document (if e-filed). A separate document with the confidential information redacted shall be filed on white paper (if paper filing) or filed as a public document (if e-filing). A separate ACR Form identifying the information excluded from public access and the Rule 5 grounds for exclusion shall also be filed.
(2) The names of child witnesses in cases involving sex offenses shall be excluded from public access, and any references shall be replaced with initials or similar designation that ensures their anonymity, with no notice of exclusion from Public Access required. Names shall not be redacted in protection order cases or on no contact orders.
(3) Addresses (mail or email), dates of birth, and phone numbers of natural persons who are witnesses or victims in criminal, juvenile, or civil protection order proceedings shall be excluded from public access. The document containing the confidential information shall be filed on green paper (if paper filing) or filed as a confidential document (if e-filed). A separate document with the confidential information redacted shall be filed on white paper (if paper filing) or filed as a public document (if e-filing). A separate ACR Form identifying the information excluded from public access and the Rule 5 grounds for exclusion shall also be filed.”

Indiana Rules on Access to Court Records

The rules note several times that they must start from the presumption of public access, and all restrictions from public access need to be grounded in law.
JMO IANAL

 

[TheVisual]

rsbm but "...They are alleging that LE acted in bad faith to implicate RA while willfully ignoring the Rushville angle."

They tried to implicate someone who admits he was at the scene, looks like Bridge Guy, lives a mile from the CS, and has a matching pistol? Seems like RA has implicated his own self about as well as anybody could.

So tell me this: Ricky was there, fishwatching and talking to his stockbrokers, at the same approximate time, right? So why didn't he see these pagan orthodontists, and tell police that he saw them--bravely decked out in their prison-guard finery and wearing caps that said "Make Odin great again"--that he saw them marching two girls down the hill? Didn't think it was important enough to be worth mentioning?

Is it just me or is that hard to believe?

Maybe RA didn't see them because they Odinists were "down the hill". And if they got there by car then what were they doing on the private drive below the bridge? Wasn't the gate supposed to be locked on the drive that led up to the Weber(actually BW's mother's house), forgot her last name, Sanders? Does any of that make sense?

 

[MistyWaters]

However she doesn’t note what needs to be redacted. Per Indiana court rules for public access, nothing I can think of in the document should be excluded from public access. Even if the Memorandum needs to be redacted, it doesn’t follow that the Motion needs to be sealed until the Memo is unsealed.

Rule 5
“(C) Personal Information of Litigants, Witnesses, and Children:
(1) Unless necessary to the disposition of the case, the following information shall be redacted, and no notice of exclusion from Public Access is required:
(a) Complete Social Security Numbers of living persons;
(b) Complete account numbers, personal identification numbers, and passwords.
If the information is necessary to the disposition of the case, the document containing the confidential information shall be filed on green paper (if paper filing) or filed as a confidential document (if e-filed). A separate document with the confidential information redacted shall be filed on white paper (if paper filing) or filed as a public document (if e-filing). A separate ACR Form identifying the information excluded from public access and the Rule 5 grounds for exclusion shall also be filed.
(2) The names of child witnesses in cases involving sex offenses shall be excluded from public access, and any references shall be replaced with initials or similar designation that ensures their anonymity, with no notice of exclusion from Public Access required. Names shall not be redacted in protection order cases or on no contact orders.
(3) Addresses (mail or email), dates of birth, and phone numbers of natural persons who are witnesses or victims in criminal, juvenile, or civil protection order proceedings shall be excluded from public access. The document containing the confidential information shall be filed on green paper (if paper filing) or filed as a confidential document (if e-filed). A separate document with the confidential information redacted shall be filed on white paper (if paper filing) or filed as a public document (if e-filing). A separate ACR Form identifying the information excluded from public access and the Rule 5 grounds for exclusion shall also be filed.”

Indiana Rules on Access to Court Records

The rules note several times that they must start from the presumption of public access, and all restrictions from public access need to be grounded in law.
JMO IANAL

Why wouldn’t defense attorneys be aware when they file documents what’s required to be redacted if they know their jobs, rather than the onus be on the Judge to inform them of the rules?

This is another strike against the ex-D IMO, in sneakingly filing the memo just past 2am giving the media time to publish it, while bypassing any opportunity of scrutiny by the court at such an early hour.

JMO

 

[DeDee]

Wait! What??!! They have RA's DNA from the crime scene??!! I thought that was a big NO THEY DON'T.

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Gray says that DG parked at approximately 3:14, and walked along the 501 trail until he got to the intersection where it meets the 505. This is where he met FSG who claimed to have seen a couple on the bridge.

He followed the 505 trail until it reached the creek.
He proceeded to call Becky at 3:30 to say he couldn't find the girls.
He then turned around and walked to the freedom bridge. There was no sign of the girls.

He also said that KG and CP Crossed the bridge and went to several houses to ask if anyone had seen A and L. They only spoke to one person.

I can't find any information that says DG was directly across from the CS.

GH said that KG and CP were probably fairly close, but would never have known to look across the creek.

The murders were likely done by 3:30 by accounts from LE.

JMO

Thank you for finding this one as my afternoon was booked. Perhaps this line you've written for us is the right trail that swings around near the creek's edge at the spot where the girls would be directly across from DG. Only RL's side of the Creek is higher in elevation. DG couldn't see what was up there on RL's land from his vantage point. MOO

He followed the 505 trail until it reached the creek.

 

[Ravenmoon]

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Thank you for finding this one as my afternoon was booked. Perhaps this line you've written for us is the right trail that swings around near the creek's edge at the spot where the girls would be directly across from DG. Only RL's side of the Creek is higher in elevation. DG couldn't see what was up there on RL's land from his vantage point. MOO

He followed the 505 trail until it reached the creek.

I tried to do a comparison/search. I couldn't pinpoint how the CS and the end of the 505 were in relation to one another.
GH didn't indicate that it was across or near the bodies location.
What he did say, was that CP and KG were fairly close after walking across the bridge.
I believe that would have been between 4 and 5 PM on February 13th.

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

RSBM

The first hyperlink only mentions "some kind of DNA sample," not who it belongs to. The second never speaks about DNA at all. I think @Justice101 was wondering if that sample found on-scene was definitively linked to RA. IMO