IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[zh0r4]

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Thank you for finding this one as my afternoon was booked. Perhaps this line you've written for us is the right trail that swings around near the creek's edge at the spot where the girls would be directly across from DG. Only RL's side of the Creek is higher in elevation. DG couldn't see what was up there on RL's land from his vantage point. MOO

He followed the 505 trail until it reached the creek.

So what DNA evidence did they collect from the scene in 2017 if it isn’t RA’s (per LE
depositions)?

 

[DeDee]

So what DNA evidence did they collect from the scene in 2017 if it isn’t RA’s (per LE
depositions)?

That is as much information as I'm privy to att. Surely the DNA matched the accused though, once his was obtained unless maybe the DNA is not IDed and that is why P NMc feels someone else may be involved/arrested. Even though in IN the P is not an Investigator, the P can ask Det to perform certain tasks that make their job of prosecuting easier.

I am also not sure what form this DNA is in. For instance, is it blood, touch dna, semen, salvia?

 

[Falling Down]

Same, Dec 2012, longer view w/ bridge

View attachment 460919

2012 was roughly when the main trail was cleared out a bit from where the Freedom Bridge is now (installed 2016), to roughly where the girls were dropped off. The old railroad ROW along there would have been impassable prior to it being cleared out.

No idea when the ROW for the highway was cleared, at any rate I figure the killer had to have known the general area for some years, prior to 2016 and into 2017.

JMO

 

[O.Incandenza]

11/14/2023

Order Issued The Court has recently reviewed the Chronological Case Summary (CCS) in this cause and notes that the Clerk of the Court has not yet made available to the public on the CCS the 118 documents previously made remotely accessible by Court Order of June 28, 2023. The Court previously created a website for these documents as a convenience to the public and the Clerk and to ensure the public had prompt remote access to these documents. The Clerk is ordered to enter these documents on the CCS forthwith. The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS. The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing. Finally, the Clerk is ordered to place and make accessible on the CCS former attorneys' pleadings of October 25, 2023, and October 26, 2023. As noted in its prior order, the Court considers these pleadings stricken from the record and will not consider those pleadings as the attorneys who filed same are no longer counsel of record. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Scremin, Robert Cliff Noticed: Lebrato, William Santino Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 11/14/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Looks like she's trying to clean up the CCS so that she can argue the first writ is moot. She'd previously entered orders directing the Clerk to remove the 10/25 and 10/26 filings from the CCS. Now she's ordering them added back to the CCS.

This is a lot of the relief that was requested in the first writ. Still doesn't look like she's following the ACR rules regarding making the entire Franks Memo confidential though. No CCS entry, no ACR form explaining why it's confidential. But hey, it's progress.

 

[Jurisprudence]

So tell me this: Ricky was there, fishwatching and talking to his stockbrokers, at the same approximate time, right? So why didn't he see these pagan orthodontists, and tell police that he saw them--bravely decked out in their prison-guard finery and wearing caps that said "Make Odin great again"--that he saw them marching two girls down the hill? Didn't think it was important enough to be worth mentioning?

[sbbm]

I'm curious how you know this. Because I don't think anyone knows this. What we do know, however, is that we've got a conflict.

We have TL saying RA was there between 1:30 and 3:30
vs.
RA in a voluntary interview, stating in response to TL's telling him that LE thinks the girls were abducted between 1:30 and 3:30 and asking (paraphrasing) "Were you there?" and RA stating "Yeah. I got there around noon and left around 1:30." (p. 109)

1. For corroboration of TL's sworn statement we have a "lost and unrecorded" accounting from a connected LE partner (Dan Dulin) - p. 133

2. For corroboration of TL's sworn statement we have an independent witness (SC) who gave a provided a description 4 months later of a man she saw at 3:57 p.m., and that sketch looked similar to RA as well as to a number of other people. (p.106)

1. For corroboration of RA's account we have an independent witness (BB) with no dog in this fight who states that sometime around 2:15 p.m., RA's car was not there. She knows this because there was only one car there and she looked. She remembered the car because it was a car that reminded her of a car her dad when she was a kid, and so she examined it - examined it to the point where she was able to draw a sketch of its body and angles. (p.113, 114; FN 164)

2. For corroboration of RA's account we also have an independent witness (BB) who gave a contemporaneous sketch of the man she saw which was memorialized 3 days later, and that sketch looked nothing like RA. (p.105)

Then we have an unverified video that is claimed in the PCA to be time stamped at 2:13. We can't positively ID RA in the video but if we say it's him for argument's sake, how do you know they didn't film him as they were walking in, and he was walking out? Has the video been produced to the defense? Was a forensic analysis report produced?

There are missing facts here. So again, based on the public facing information we have, how is that you know RA was present on the trail at the time A&L were abducted and attacked?

jmo

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

 

[susiQ]

That is as much information as I'm privy to att. Surely the DNA matched the accused though, once his was obtained unless maybe the DNA is not IDed and that is why P NMc feels someone else may be involved/arrested. Even though in IN the P is not an Investigator, the P can ask Det to perform certain tasks that make their job of prosecuting easier.

I am also not sure what form this DNA is in. For instance, is it blood, touch dna, semen, salvia?

Page 129, Part V of the FM states that both Liggett and Holeman testified under oath at their deposition that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the CS.

 

[susiQ]

I can certainly come up with a few people whose DNA they should have tested! Saliva comes to mind. Just sayin’.

ETA - Not to mention, there’s nothing that connects RA to the CS or the other possible players from Rushville. Nor Odinism or any cult at all. I would venture to say, he had the misfortune of going to the bridge that day and coming forward in an effort to assist. JMHO

ETA - Just a spurious bullet.

 

[MistyWaters]

Page 129, Part V of the FM states that both Liggett and Holeman testified under oath at their deposition that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the CS.

So nothing mentioned about DNA linking RA to the victims‘ bodies? That’s not the same as a crime scene - a physical location where a crime occurred.

 

[susiQ]

So nothing mentioned about DNA linking RA to the victims‘ bodies? That’s not the same as a crime scene - a physical location where a crime occurred.

If you read the FM, pg 129, Part V, it states CRIME SCENE.

 

[MistyWaters]

If you read the FM, pg 129, Part V, it states CRIME SCENE.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf -

pdfhost.io

Okay, again…. I notice no mention of DNA that might’ve been found on the victims bodies, which would be far more incriminating than if DNA had been found at the fairly large crime scene as some of it involves a public area (ie the bridge).

 

[susiQ]

Okay, again…. I notice no mention of DNA that might’ve been found on the victims bodies, which would be far more incriminating than if DNA had been found at the fairly large crime scene as some of it involves a public area (ie the bridge).

Have it your way . I find it interesting that “somebody” admitted to spitting on one of the girls but that’s NOT an important consideration. His DNA on a body doesn’t matter. Okay.

Just a question, but wouldn’t the P have to disclose if RA’s DNA was found on one of the girls?

 

[MistyWaters]

Have it your way . I find it interesting that “somebody” admitted to spitting on one of the girls but that’s NOT an important consideration. His DNA on a body doesn’t matter. Okay.

It’s important if there was a DNA match, and most importantly who’s DNA it matched.

IF EF’s alibi about visiting a hospital was captured on CCTV clearly he couldn’t be at two different places at one time. If so he was mistaken and I‘d guess was spitting elsewhere.

 

[susiQ]

It’s important if there was a DNA match, and most importantly who’s DNA it matched.

IF EF’s alibi about visiting a hospital was captured on CCTV clearly he couldn’t be at two different places at one time. If so he was mistaken and I‘d guess was spitting elsewhere.

You didn’t answer my question . I forgive you, I forgot to ETA. So, wouldn’t the P have to disclose if they found DNA that matched RA‘s on a body?
ETA - I see you answered. Thank you.

 

[Jurisprudence]

So what DNA evidence did they collect from the scene in 2017 if it isn’t RA’s (per LE
depositions)?

This is a very big deal and I'm wondering if the only reason we haven't heard about it from defense yet is because of the slow-walk on discovery production from the state to the D.

Feb 23, 2017
"On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered...It is now the third piece of evidence investigators have said publicly they have: the grainy suspect photo, that chilling audio of a man's voice saying “down the hill,” and now some kind of DNA sample...We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. “So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]...It’s good,” said Bush, “the science is excellent, it’s very trustworthy, and there are very strong standards in DNA processing, but…when all is said and done, [it’s] just one piece of evidence for the process.”

Well, we know whose DNA it isn't or it would have been shouted from the rooftops imo.

This was some time ago now so was there a publicized match found, or has this just been sitting out there buried (and ignored)?

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found mu…

fox59.com

ETA: They need to turn this over. If they hadn't yet prior to the non-withdrawal withdrawal, why not?

 

[susiQ]

It’s important if there was a DNA match, and most importantly who’s DNA it matched.

IF EF’s alibi about visiting a hospital was captured on CCTV clearly he couldn’t be at two different places at one time. If so he was mistaken and I‘d guess was spitting elsewhere.

That certainly is the question isn’t it? Was EF at the hospital with Rod A? I’m sorry to say, as developmentally challenged as EF may be, I marvel that he could mistake spitting just anywhere and spitting on a dead girl’s body and remembering that he puts sticks in her hair.

For the record, I have worked with developmentally challenged individuals that function at his level and I can tell you, they would know the difference. I have an 8 year old grandson that could tell you whether he peed in the bush or went into the house to go to the bathroom. JMHO.

Ed:gr

 

[MistyWaters]

You didn’t answer my question . I forgive you, I forgot to ETA. So, wouldn’t the P have to disclose if they found DNA that matched RA‘s on a body?

I would imagine it would depend on when a DNA sample was taken from RA. If it wasn’t until he was arrested any match wouldn’t be included in the prior PCs supporting the SW or arrest.

Otherwise I don’t think the P is required to disclose anything at all to the public prior to the trial, other than discovery material shared with only the defense. Purely speculation but maybe that was involved with RA eating his paperwork?

JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Okay, again…. I notice no mention of DNA that might’ve been found on the victims bodies, which would be far more incriminating than if DNA had been found at the fairly large crime scene as some of it involves a public area (ie the bridge).

I think you should read their own words (LE) instead of the defense counsel's words because we know you distrust the defense. LE thought it was a big deal at the time. So, the question is why did this big break suddenly disappear? Whose DNA is it? Did they clear the person and if not, why not?

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found mu…

fox59.com

 

[MistyWaters]

That certainly is the question isn’t it? Was EF at the hospital with Rod A? I’m sorry to say, as developmentally challenged as EF may be, I marvel that he could mistake spitting just anywhere and spitting on a dead girl’s body and remembering that he puts sticks in her hair.

For the record, I have worked with developmentally challenged individuals that function at his level and I can tell you, they would know the difference. I have an 8 year old grandson that could tell you whether he peed in the bush or went into the house to go to the bathroom. JMHO.

Ed:gr

No one is able to speak for all developmentally challenged individuals as if each person is the same. At age 50 did EF have a tendency to concoct stories, we don’t know. We also don‘t know why LE wasn’t interested in him, nor do we even know if the new defense team will chose to further an Odim defense. Too much is unknown.

 

[Jurisprudence]

If you read the FM, pg 129, Part V, it states CRIME SCENE.

Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.
184 Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. 185 Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group. 186

184 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 1-3.
185 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 9-12.
186 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 13-25

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

So nothing mentioned about DNA linking RA to the victims‘ bodies? That’s not the same as a crime scene - a physical location where a crime occurred.

I respectfully disagree. They aren't that "deep". They aren't parsing words. And even if TL was parsing words and splitting hairs in his depo I would expect him to say "No DNA at the cs, but guess what, it was on the victims."
jmo