IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Jurisprudence]

There was no evidence of threats to RA or by RA; the threats were perceived. Diener received threats of lawsuits if he didn't respond to requests for documents.

They couldn't even point to one. If there was anything you can bet it would have been included in the motion and the order.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

I hope they release the audio.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

From the link:
View attachment 462508
I'm not even going to make an argument either way on the transcript, because I don't know law, but this part above does bother me. The warnings the D got in regards to disqualification was through unrecorded, informal phone calls and emails, and the Judge agrees. Is this a problem?

I don’t think so. In this transcript they both admitted that the group phone call and emails took place.

 

[Jurisprudence]

The sooner Judge Gull recuses herself the better. The transcript is even less flattering to her than I expected it would be based on Rozzi’s prior statements and filings. JMO

I think it is critical that the audio be obtained. I do not expect a court reporter to leave anything out ever, and I do not think it was done here either. However, given what's been going on in this case, that transcript must be verified against the audio. The audio is also important to hear tone imo.

jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

I am reading about leaks that began long before B&R came into the picture.

Can someone clarify what leaks these are?

Because the CS photos of the girls, the exact manner and methods of death as well as CS description certainly were leaked under B& R . No one else.


JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it is critical that the audio be obtained. I do not expect a court reporter to leave anything out ever, and I do not think it was done here either. However, given what's been going on in this case, that transcript must be verified against the audio. The audio is also importnant to hear tome imo.

jmo

First came the accusations the judge held the chamber meeting in total secrecy with no record of what was said. Now as that’s not true the court reporter must’ve got it all wrong?

What next? She’s one of at least 20 unrelated parties who are all out to frame RA, Gutwein as well?

 

[Jurisprudence]

I am reading about leaks that began long before B&R came into the picture.

Can someone clarify what leaks these are?

Because the CS photos of the girls, the exact manner and methods of death as well as CS description certainly were leaked under B& R . No one else.


JMO

Well, there has been discussion of this for a long time but never the concrete confirmation we just received. Holeman disclosed it in his depo - 10 pages worth apparently. (see page 8)

 

[Cyber sleuth]

First came the accusations the judge held the chamber meeting in total secrecy with no record of what was said. Now as that’s not true the court reporter must’ve got it all wrong?

What next? She’s one of at least 20 unrelated parties who are all out to frame RA, Gutwein as well?

View attachment 462537

The goal line is constantly pushed back.

 

[Ravenmoon]

First came the accusations the judge held the chamber meeting in total secrecy with no record of what was said. Now as that’s not true the court reporter must’ve got it all wrong?

What next? She’s one of at least 20 unrelated parties who are all out to frame RA, Gutwein as well?

View attachment 462537

It just doesn't end.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just for the heck of it:

Obviously AB withdrew. Point blank.

Rozzi withdrew on the record over and over.

Is that enough for everyone to agree that neither R or B are a part of this case?

Is it possible to start a whole different thread for the exD????

@Sillybilly

 

[zh0r4]

<modsnip>

I never thought this could be related, very possible IMO. <modsnip: Referenced post was removed>: why it might be connected:

“In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.

<snip>

Indiana State Troopers, FBI agents and detectives from other agencies, Thomas took a lead role in assisting in the investigation.

”The bigger agencies were involved from Day One so I was deeply involved in the beginning.”

That involvement included conversations with then-Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives.

This crime is unique to this area as well as pretty much a lot of different areas and there are experts out there that have dealt with this sort of thing before and I believe that it could have been very beneficial,” said Thomas. ”In the very first few weeks of the double homicide, I wanted to bring experts in and I was given that task by the Carroll County Prosecutor and basically they didn’t like what I had to say and it kind of went downhill from there.”

Ives confirmed those conversations to FOX59 News.

I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

‘I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.’” (Continued)

Source:

Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victi…

fox59.com

Case summary:

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al​

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al

On 10/25/2022 Thomas filed a Discrimination - Employment Discrimination court case against Carroll County, Indiana in U.S. District Courts. Court records for this case are available from Indiana Northern District Court.

unicourt.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Just for the heck of it:

Obviously AB withdrew. Point blank.

Rozzi withdrew on the record over and over.

Is that enough for everyone to agree that neither R or B are a part of this case?

Is it possible to start a whole different thread for the exD????

AB didn’t even want to take a moment to discuss he was halfway to his car to Fred Flintstone his way out of the parking lot.
AMO

 

[susiQ]

I hope they release the audio.

That, would be gold! My mom often reminded me as a child of an old German saying, “The tone makes the music.” I would love to hear JG‘s “tone.” JMHO

 

[Jurisprudence]

One of the more telling things from that meeting was how JG kept asking about having hearings on motions she had no intention to hold because she had already made her decision unbeknownst to them. And, when they questioned her about scheduling arguably the most important hearing that required scheduling (the removal), she essentially disregarded it. BR made mention on the record of how the media was teed up (for the one and only time) on that date. This was a smart thing for him to put on the record imo. It goes to show their state of mind about what was happening to them and what they were dealing with.

jmo

In Camera Hearing Transcript.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[susiQ]

Judge Gull has a LOT of GALL.
To intend to publicly shame two respected attorneys in a courtroom, for something that has essentially been going on for years and preparing a statement ahead of time to announce their disqualification without due process and any notice. I’d call that an ambush. Shameful. If she does not recuse herself, I hope someone has the power to remove her. She gave them no choice except to withdraw. JMHO.

 

[DeDee]

I never thought this could be related, very possible IMO. <modsnip: Referenced post was removed>

“In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.

<snip>

Indiana State Troopers, FBI agents and detectives from other agencies, Thomas took a lead role in assisting in the investigation.

”The bigger agencies were involved from Day One so I was deeply involved in the beginning.”

That involvement included conversations with then-Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives.

This crime is unique to this area as well as pretty much a lot of different areas and there are experts out there that have dealt with this sort of thing before and I believe that it could have been very beneficial,” said Thomas. ”In the very first few weeks of the double homicide, I wanted to bring experts in and I was given that task by the Carroll County Prosecutor and basically they didn’t like what I had to say and it kind of went downhill from there.”

Ives confirmed those conversations to FOX59 News.

I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

‘I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.’” (Continued)

Source:

Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victi…

fox59.com

Case summary:

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al​

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al

On 10/25/2022 Thomas filed a Discrimination - Employment Discrimination court case against Carroll County, Indiana in U.S. District Courts. Court records for this case are available from Indiana Northern District Court.

unicourt.com

"I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Was this quibbling occuring around the time, in NOV 2017, when Ives decided to quit as P by the end of the year? Truth be told, Ives and Thomas were aligned in how to conduct the investigation. Maybe they were forced out in the way Rozzi and Baldwin are being forced out of the way.

We know how things went from the Nov election and with Judge D also recusing himself from the dangerous case.

JG's bold in disqualifying Rozzi.

JMOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Would anyone be interested in sharing an unbiased opinion on the impact this transcript might have on the Petition for Writ of Mandamus filed 11/06/23?

I get that some of you are spitting mad at the judge for unknown reasons, as if some kind of personal thing between you and her.

But isn’t the reason we are all here on this Websleuths thread is to discuss the case?

 

[zh0r4]

Just for the heck of it:

Obviously AB withdrew. Point blank.

Rozzi withdrew on the record over and over.

Is that enough for everyone to agree that neither R or B are a part of this case?

Is it possible to start a whole different thread for the exD????

@Sillybilly

There is a process of withdrawal in Indiana law that was not followed (Source below, 3.1(H). Even if they wanted to withdraw and weren’t given a Hobson’s choice, RA is suppose to have a 10 day notice of intent to withdraw from the defense before the filing. There was no hearing for the attorneys to plead their case, and RA was not even present, which violates his constitutional rights. Rozzi did nothing wrong, RA wanted these lawyers. JG is acting like a queen in a monarchy instead of an impartial judge in a democratic republic. This is not following the law, and of all people, judges should follow the law. This is blatant bias, the transcript was a horrific read. I understand people want justice for Abby & Libby, but justice and injustice are not synonymous. It’s disconcerting how many are OK with constitutional rights/due process being violated in our judicial system. Imagine, even if you think RA is guilty, if this was your father/brother/husband/family member, and he was innocent? There are reasons the judicial system has protocol to follow, to prevent exactly stuff like this happening.

AJMO.

Source for withdrawal process in Indiana 3.1(H) p.5:

https://www.in.gov/courts/rules/trial_proc/trial_proc.pdf

 

[Jurisprudence]

Judge Gull has a LOT of GALL.
To intend to publicly shame two respected attorneys in a courtroom, for something that has essentially been going on for years and preparing a statement ahead of time to announce their disqualification without due process and any notice. I’d call that an ambush. Shameful. If she does not recuse herself, I hope someone has the power to remove her. She gave them no choice except to withdraw. JMHO.

I do think the record supports that they essentially had no choice. I wasn't sure we'd see from this meeting corroboration of what they said occurred but I think the record accurately reflects that the way they recalled it is the way it unfolded.

jmo

I understand people want justice for Abby & Libby, but justice and injustice are not synonymous. It’s disconcerting how many are OK with constitutional rights/due process being violated in our judicial system. Imagine, even if you think RA is guilty, if this was your father/brother/husband/family member, and he was innocent? There are reasons the judicial system has protocol to follow, to prevent exactly stuff like this happening.

AJMO.

Source for withdrawal process in Indiana 3.1(H) p.5:

https://www.in.gov/courts/rules/trial_proc/trial_proc.pdf

[sbm]

Agree. It's important for people to realize two things imo: the better his attorneys are the less susceptible his conviction will be to attack if he is actually guilty. And if he is not guilty, no one should want him convicted. This is in the best interest of everyone. Not only the families, but us too.

jmo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I would say I thought it was shocking and offensive the ex-defense compared their misbehavior and the leaking of the crime scene photos, with things shared by the public at the search or who saw the crime scene, to the public in general right after the murders.
The difference, that this legal genius defense team cannot comprehend, is the public was NOT under a gag order or a protective order to safeguard those very sensitive crime scene photos. THEY were.
Then they sum up their thoughts on all the leaks by saying “I don’t care!” Well, I’m pretty sure the girls’ families cared! A Lot! Maybe if they had cared more this wouldn’t have happened. How callous.