IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[twall]

They refused Lehman's transfer at first, saying he didn't meet the criteria.
Have you ever seen what that criteria is?

No, I have not and do not know why they would refuse him.

 

[DeDee]

sbm
Respectfully, I did not raise the issue of white nationalism, I merely followed it through. So, I think I'm the wrong person to ask. I was only trying to be helpful by linking the FM for with those pages because you asked. Maybe this will help.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22). It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only...

www.websleuths.com

Well, those were enlightening interviews with Vinny's guests. Forest for the Trees

RSBMFF
I find it alarming that 1. a defendant without a trial is in prison-whether he’s guilty or not. 2. That the judge concealed a record of a letter from another inmate that RA was being abused and 3. That the transfer request was also denied.

The one thing that colored and perhaps tainted my view of JG was the denial to move the prisoner. I saw with my own eyes the severe difference in RA's physical appearance, what very little the public has been allowed to see of him post arrest. KK wasn't treated this way and neither was JCaldwell.

Sheriff's decry they can't protect RA in county jail when it is the job of the elected Sheriff to protect prisoners within their care. Cass County declared they would house RA but, by golly, they wouldn't transport RA for court appearances. JG feels it's alright to leave unconvicted RA in Westville another year while knowing the guards wore patches, used tasers and threatened the prisoner all while his physical and mental health obviously declined. RA's been in solitary lockup for a year.

The housing issue seems to have become about money more than it is about acquiring justice for Libby and Abby. Carroll County spent over $30k fighting the release of the Flora fire 911 call/s and won on appeal. It seems the County is prudent on inmates' rights but not when attempting to keep public information concealed.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

June 16, 2023
"Earlier this year, Rozzi attempted to make arrangements for Allen to be moved to the Cass County jail, just 20 minutes from Delphi. That move was not opposed by either the prosecutor or the judge, but the plan never materialized due to opposition from Carroll County Sheriff TonyLiggett..."

The newly-elected sheriff testified Thursday that he is concerned about his department’s ability to safely transport Allen between the Cass County jail and the Carroll County courthouse. Liggett said that 15-mile transport would be challenging due to the added security and manpower that would be required. [MONEY!]

Cass County Sheriff EdSchroder bluntly told the court “I don’t want him” due to the extra hassles and security concerns of housing an inmate < > his large, modern facility is well-suited to house Allen < > would accept the defendant if ordered to do so by the judge. [Money!]

Schroder < > likely house Allen in an individual suicide-watch padded cell that is video monitored < >. Any transportation would be the responsibility of Carroll County, the sheriff explained." [MONEY!]

JMHOO

 

[mrjitty]

Defense Diaries pointed out that RA has a very limited time to request his current assigned lawyers to file an interlocutory appeal for him, since AB and BR cannot.

For those who don't fancy listening to 3hrs of Bob Motta, basically he was having a minor freakout that SCOIN might agree with Judge Gull and find the writ defective because they didn't first file an interlocutory appeal on the Judge's removal order.

According to Motta, it would make sense to file this appeal as well as an insurance policy of sorts because if SCOIN decides they needed to have done that, the substance of their complaint will never be heard.

If they file with the trial court to seek to appeal the decision in the next day or so, then they still have that route available

What was quite funny is Motta said he might as well not discuss this all too much because SCOIN may just boot this over the defect and then it's all a gigantic waste of time LOL - the advice I try to give myself.

 

[Jurisprudence]

The one thing that colored and perhaps tainted my view of JG was the denial to move the prisoner. I saw with my own eyes the severe difference in RA's physical appearance, what very little the public has been allowed to see of him post arrest. KK wasn't treated this way and neither was JCaldwell.

Sheriff's decry they can't protect RA in county jail when it is the job of the elected Sheriff to protect prisoners within their care. Cass County declared they would house RA but, by golly, they wouldn't transport RA for court appearances. JG feels it's alright to leave unconvicted RA in Westville another year while knowing the guards wore patches, used tasers and threatened the prisoner all while his physical and mental health obviously declined. RA's been in solitary lockup for a year.

The housing issue seems to have become about money more than it is about acquiring justice for Libby and Abby. Carroll County spent over $30k fighting the release of the Flora fire 911 call/s and won on appeal. It seems the County is prudent on inmates' rights but not when attempting to keep public information concealed.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

June 16, 2023
"Earlier this year, Rozzi attempted to make arrangements for Allen to be moved to the Cass County jail, just 20 minutes from Delphi. That move was not opposed by either the prosecutor or the judge, but the plan never materialized due to opposition from Carroll County Sheriff TonyLiggett..."

The newly-elected sheriff testified Thursday that he is concerned about his department’s ability to safely transport Allen between the Cass County jail and the Carroll County courthouse. Liggett said that 15-mile transport would be challenging due to the added security and manpower that would be required. [MONEY!]

Cass County Sheriff EdSchroder bluntly told the court “I don’t want him” due to the extra hassles and security concerns of housing an inmate < > his large, modern facility is well-suited to house Allen < > would accept the defendant if ordered to do so by the judge. [Money!]
...

[sbbm]

CW spoke to this issue when she appeared on DD which can be independently searched (around 1:28) bc I don't believe it can be linked. She stated they didn't even broach the housing situation in their original action bc the Sheriff and trial court have broad discretion to house him wherever they think is best. In other words, while the decision might have been wrong, and might have been written as supported by unsubstantiated and/or non-existent facts, given the discretion they have it is not something that could typically be considered part of the writ they are requesting. Writs are sought to compel an official to do his or her official duty and they realized they can't make this argument since they had a right to do with RA as they saw fit, as ill founded as it might be. It was smart of them not to include it. Throwing it in there (something not properly subject to the relief sought) could potentially result in the entire original action being denied - and getting it accepted was not guaranteed, particularly since they did not/could not appeal to the trial court directly given how the judge cut off B&R and then even her when she tried to go the procedurally correct route to obtain the transcript. In the end, we know that the supreme court did accepted their filing, so that's a good thing. Now, hopefully, they will do the right thing with it - which, I realize, is a matter of divided opinion.

All jmo

ETA: Personal opinion only, I think this man should have been moved back. He had been in county lock up for 5 days without incident. The reasons to move him at the start were hyper-focused on media and were accompanied by extremely bizarre rants by Diener. jmo

 

[sunshineray]

The problem is their client wants the other attorneys; it's in his best interest that they do as he wishes. MOO

That's the rub isn't it. If his right to effective and competent council outweighs his right to choose when he seeks pauper representation. If attorneys are shown to be ineffective, ethics violators as well as overall inept at protecting the court ruled confidental materials, the defendant's rights would need to be protected by the court. AJMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The problem is their client wants the other attorneys; it's in his best interest that they do as he wishes. MOO

I am not convinced RA understood the scope of their actions and how it could affect his trial. His statement was very limited.

 

[sunshineray]

The problem is their client wants the other attorneys; it's in his best interest that they do as he wishes. MOO

The court would obviously beg to differ with that. We shall see if the SC agrees with that judgement. Has there been a date set for a judgement, a time frame...or is it all at the leisure of the SC?

 

[sunshineray]

[sbbm]

CW spoke to this issue when she appeared on DD which can be independently searched (around 1:28) bc I don't believe it can be linked. She stated they didn't even broach the housing situation in their original action bc the Sheriff and trial court have broad discretion to house him wherever they think is best. In other words, while the decision might have been wrong, and might have been written as supported by unsubstantiated and/or non-existent facts, given the discretion they have it is not something that could typically be considered part of the writ they are requesting. Writs are sought to compel an official to do his or her official duty and they realized they can't make this argument since they had a right to do with RA as they saw fit, as ill founded as it might be. It was smart of them not to include it. Throwing it in there (something not properly subject to the relief sought) could potentially result in the entire original action being denied - and getting it accepted was not guaranteed, particularly since they did not/could not appeal to the trial court directly given how the judge cut off B&R and then even her when she tried to go the procedurally correct route to obtain the transcript. In the end, we know that the supreme court did accepted their filing, so that's a good thing. Now, hopefully, they will do the right thing with it - which, I realize, is a matter of divided opinion.

All jmo

ETA: Personal opinion only, I think this man should have been moved back. He had been in county lock up for 5 days without incident. The reasons to move him at the start were hyper-focused on media and were accompanied by extremely bizarre rants by Diener. jmo

Are we informed as to everything that transpired within county or everything behind the judge's recusal? I haven't read a full accounting of what may or may not have occured. I think assuming he was moved for no good reason just because nothing has come out in the MM is judging RA's jail situation with incomplete information.
AJMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Are we informed as to everything that transpired within county or everything behind the judge's recusal? I haven't read a full accounting of what may or may not have occured. I think assuming he was moved for no good reason just because nothing has come out in the MM is judging RA's jail situation with incomplete information.
AJMO

I think you have to read the original request for his removal. In there you will note that there was not a single incident cited as part of the grounds.

jmo

 

[kae27]

It's interesting Judge Gull pivoted to talking about 'incompetence' in her response - apparently conceding that 'gross negligence' was not the right standard?

This is a fantastic point.

 

[Ravenmoon]

This is a fantastic point.

Just wondering:

Do you have any idea or thoughts about a timeframe for the response from the Supreme Court of Indiana in regards to Judge Gulls filings?

Is it possible that the SC could hand off the decision to a lower court like the AG? ( I am sure my wording isn't correct, hopefully you will understand what I am asking)

Is there a time limit on response?

Thank you

 

[Jurisprudence]

This is a fantastic point.

Many noticed this shift in the reply. She made one passing reference to it in the in-chambers meeting. It was not the focus, but the word at least appeared one time in the transcript IIRC. It seems imo that the credit to course correct that problematic fact in an attempt to strengthen the response, fully goes to Matt Gutwein.

jmo

 

[TL4S]

For those who don't fancy listening to 3hrs of Bob Motta, basically he was having a minor freakout that SCOIN might agree with Judge Gull and find the writ defective because they didn't first file an interlocutory appeal on the Judge's removal order.

According to Motta, it would make sense to file this appeal as well as an insurance policy of sorts because if SCOIN decides they needed to have done that, the substance of their complaint will never be heard.

If they file with the trial court to seek to appeal the decision in the next day or so, then they still have that route available

What was quite funny is Motta said he might as well not discuss this all too much because SCOIN may just boot this over the defect and then it's all a gigantic waste of time LOL - the advice I try to give myself.

Yes! I actually thoroughly enjoyed that entire episode.

 

[TL4S]

Nice to meet you @kae27!

It's interesting Judge Gull pivoted to talking about 'incompetence' in her response - apparently conceding that 'gross negligence' was not the right standard?

Yes, and maybe because the only case citing available with that kind of terminology included "gross incompetence."

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Niner Updates on the murder case

11/28/2023	Notice of Completion of Representation Notice of Completion of Representation Filed by: Allen, Richard M. Notice Filed: 11/28/2023
11/29/2023	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Notice of Completion of Representation ---- 11/28/2023 : James David Luttrull
11/29/2023	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Notice of Completion of Representation ---- 11/28/2023 : Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato
11/29/2023	Order Received from the Indiana Supreme Court Order Signed: 11/22/2023

 

[sunshineray]

I think you have to read the original request for his removal. In there you will note that there was not a single incident cited as part of the grounds.

jmo

It was probably generalized as to keep media attention at a minimum. I'm sure that's most likely how those kinds of moves are undertaken now that everybody and their brother want to know details best left off the internet news websites and SM...for security reasons. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, and maybe because the only case citing available with that kind of terminology included "gross incompetence."

It amazes that it appears, in the legal set, "gross negligence" and "gross incompetence" are seen as two different things. They seem married hand in hand to me. AJMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

The problem is their client wants the other attorneys; it's in his best interest that they do as he wishes. MOO

I can’t agree with you there Frosted. Darrell Brooks thought representing himself was best and look how that worked out.

Defendant in Wisconsin Christmas parade attack is representing himself – and causing a scene

Darrell Brooks is representing himself in trial over the Waukesha Christmas Parade tragedy, where six people died. That could slow the proceedings.

www.usatoday.com

 

[AugustWest]

It amazes that it appears, in the legal set, "gross negligence" and "gross incompetence" are seen as two different things. They seem married hand in hand to me. AJMO

The legal meaning of negligence and incompetence differ. In order for negligence to apply, the elements of (1) duty, (2) breach of duty, (3) cause, and (4) harm must be established. Incompetence simply means that a person does not have specific required skills to complete a task.

Also, the word "gross" has a specific legal meaning; it implies a certain standard of care. For example, simple "negligence" means failure to use reasonable care, whereas "gross" negligence implies willful, wanton and reckless disregard of this standard of care (i.e. conscious disregard of risk)

 

[kae27]

Just wondering:

Do you have any idea or thoughts about a timeframe for the response from the Supreme Court of Indiana in regards to Judge Gulls filings?

Is it possible that the SC could hand off the decision to a lower court like the AG? ( I am sure my wording isn't correct, hopefully you will understand what I am asking)

Is there a time limit on response?

Thank you

Sorry that I'm not going to be any help on these questions, so I hope others will be. I've never practiced in Indiana so, without research, don't have any knowledge of their timeframes. The answer to your second question is no, though.