IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[tlcya]

“From our position as it stands right now, Mr. Allen will NOT be attending the hearing, and we will NOT be asking for him to attend the hearing. My understanding from Supreme Court Services is that the Court will not be, on its own, entering an order to transport him either. I suppose the State of Indiana, through the Attorney General or through Mr. Guttwein, could file a motion asking to have him transported. But I don't see why the State would want him there.”
Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen not expected to attend hearing at Indiana Supreme Court

 

[Betty P]

I doubt most of the Odinist stuff will even be admissible at trial.

Related - If anyone is interested the latest MS podcast was with a guy who examined all the social media claims in the Franks. I have no way of evaluating his takes as I have precisely zero interest in delving into all that stuff. Short version he thinks it is a bunch of wild speculation that doesn't prove anything.

Interesting he noted the wild claim about the victim being hung from her feet for which there is precisely zero evidence yet somehow is linked to a social media post.

What I will say, is I don't believe the defence will be allowed to just produce any old thing as evidence. Especially hearsay testimony about what a supposed perp said ...

02c

I agree, it won't be admissible at trial. JMO, that's why they leaked it the way they did. It really seems important in these high profile trials that judges issue gag orders and refuse to allow attorneys to release these kind of documents to the public during the pre-trial phase. Other trials we've followed provide summaries of pre-trial motions and discovery. The news media, podcasters and the public can wait until the trial to see what is revealed. MOO

 

[susiQ]

What's been missing during his hearings are reports of angry mobs threatening to kill him. Maybe that's been happening and MSM just isn't reporting them for whatever reason.

Seeing him all shackled/vested up and surrounded by a bunch of big, beafy LE paints a scary picture. IMO

No doubt there are numerous “scary” and violent criminals in the system and yet, RA doesn’t strike me as one of them. The chains and shackles reek of overkill to me, so why do it? One would think if he were such a scary, violent man his wife would be thrilled to see him behind bars and would not show her face in support of him. BUT, that’s not the case. “Someone” has a vested interest in portraying him as some kind of “beast.” It certainly feeds those who have him branded as guilty before even going to trial and weighing the actual evidence against him. JMHO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

No doubt there are numerous “scary” and violent criminals in the system and yet, RA doesn’t strike me as one of them. The chains and shackles reek of overkill to me, so why do it? One would think if he were such a scary, violent man his wife would be thrilled to see him behind bars and would not show her face in support of him. BUT, that’s not the case. “Someone” has a vested interest in portraying him as some kind of “beast.”

The courts/prosecutors/attorneys have nothing to do with prisoner transport. All transport is done according to an SOP. LE and correctional officers do this routinely.
It's irrelevant what the perception of RA is to the transporting officers and they don't care what the "perception" is, they follow the SOP. RA is wearing a standard belly chain and leg restraints when he is transported. The only exception is that some transports are at higher risk from the public and are wearing protective armor and moved out of public view.
Moo with personal experience.

 

[mrjitty]

The courts/prosecutors/attorneys have nothing to do with prisoner transport. All transport is done according to an SOP. LE and correctional officers do this routinely.
It's irrelevant what the perception of RA is to the transporting officers and they don't care what the "perception" is, they follow the SOP. RA is wearing a standard belly chain and leg restraints when he is transported. The only exception is that some transports are at higher risk from the public and are wearing protective armor and moved out of public view.
Moo with personal experience.

Interestingly just recently the killer in the Mo Wilson case made a run for it while on an out of prison doctors visit - so while i think this practice is somewhat absurd, i suspect you are correct it's not that particular to this case. And of course at trial, this won't happen.

 

[katydid23]

No doubt there are numerous “scary” and violent criminals in the system and yet, RA doesn’t strike me as one of them. The chains and shackles reek of overkill to me, so why do it? One would think if he were such a scary, violent man his wife would be thrilled to see him behind bars and would not show her face in support of him. BUT, that’s not the case. “Someone” has a vested interest in portraying him as some kind of “beast.” It certainly feeds those who have him branded as guilty before even going to trial and weighing the actual evidence against him. JMHO

He is on trial for a double murder. That automatically puts him in the potentially violent category.JMO

 

[Justice101]

The courts/prosecutors/attorneys have nothing to do with prisoner transport. All transport is done according to an SOP. LE and correctional officers do this routinely.
It's irrelevant what the perception of RA is to the transporting officers and they don't care what the "perception" is, they follow the SOP. RA is wearing a standard belly chain and leg restraints when he is transported. The only exception is that some transports are at higher risk from the public and are wearing protective armor and moved out of public view.
Moo with personal experience.

Well said.

 

[Betty P]

He is on trial for a double murder. That automatically puts him in the potentially violent category.JMO

When its time for him to appear in court, his attorneys can ask for special accomodation to allow him to appear in regular clothing and with something like a "stun vest" garment that he can wear under street clothing. Its a type of vest that is worn under a shirt. If a defendant becomes unruly in court, guards holding a remote control will give a verbal command, then push a button to stun the defendant.

Here's an article that describes how they work.

Sheriff's stun vest a hidden tool to stop unruly defendants in Saginaw County court

A new NOVA stun vest the department purchased for potentially dangerous defendants to wear in court is a way to stop an attack in its tracks before someone is injured.

www.mlive.com

Follow the trial of the Wagner family members. The men all wear these vests in court, with street clothes. Over the last few years of them going to court this way, there hasn't been a problem, and these are violent guys. LE has never needed to use the stun vest on any of the Wagners during several years of court appearances.

RA's attorney has to request this in a pre-trial hearing. The judge has to rule on it.

Here's a video of Billy Wagner dressed this way in his most recent hearing

 

[FrostedGlass]

The courts/prosecutors/attorneys have nothing to do with prisoner transport. All transport is done according to an SOP. LE and correctional officers do this routinely.
It's irrelevant what the perception of RA is to the transporting officers and they don't care what the "perception" is, they follow the SOP. RA is wearing a standard belly chain and leg restraints when he is transported. The only exception is that some transports are at higher risk from the public and are wearing protective armor and moved out of public view.
Moo with personal experience.

Remember... this is Indiana. Is our SOP uniform throughout the entire system?

Marion Co. lost Deputy John Durm when an accused murderer, who was being transported from a medical visit, overcame him and strangled him to death. The prisoner was shackled... legs, wrists and belly chain.
Durm was only one who was transporting. Marion Co decided to make some changes after that.

Here, at the 20mm begins the talk about changes which needed to be made:

 

[Emma Peel]

Links to Wieneke Law's recent tweets re the SCOIN case hearing, mostly about RA's attendance/no attendance on Jan 18. Sounds like RA's elected not to be transported.

(this thought from me: perhaps he'll be permitted to watch the hour (or less) of argument online)


https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1742909130975629536?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1743758657106464875?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1742957911955931239?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1743743577828508081?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1740070183945842790?s=20

 

[girlhasnoname]

Links to Wieneke Law's recent tweets re the SCOIN case hearing, mostly about RA's attendance/no attendance on Jan 18. Sounds like RA's elected not to be transported.

(this thought from me: perhaps he'll be permitted to watch the hour (or less) of argument online)


https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1742909130975629536?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1743758657106464875?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1742957911955931239?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1743743577828508081?s=20

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1740070183945842790?s=20

Why does CW insist on continuing to tweet about this case? She's shooting herself in the foot IMO.

In one tweet she's demanding to know why RA isn't attending, saying that the new Defense team is not communicating with them, etc.

Then we get this: <from your linked tweets above>

It is Mr. Allen's decision to be there or not. There are many reasons why people in the D.O.C. choose not to be transported. The trip is long and tiring. It poses a security risk to Mr. Allen every time he is transported.

Sit down and be quiet until 1/18 please CW, you're not doing RA any favors.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Why does CW insist on continuing to tweet about this case? She's shooting herself in the foot IMO.

In one tweet she's demanding to know why RA isn't attending, saying that the new Defense team is not communicating with them, etc.

Then we get this: <from your linked tweets above>

It is Mr. Allen's decision to be there or not. There are many reasons why people in the D.O.C. choose not to be transported. The trip is long and tiring. It poses a security risk to Mr. Allen every time he is transported.

Sit down and be quiet until 1/18 please CW, you're not doing RA any favors.

MOO

Why do you think CW should sit down and be quiet?
Is she violating the gag order?
Right here in the quote below is where that issue came up.
[snip]
"But on Jan. 18, Indiana State Police thinks the Capitol building will host another visitor — a man charged with the murders of two young girls in Delphi.
“I fully anticipate Richard Allen being there. We have no reason to think he won’t,” ISP Superintendent Doug Carter told 13News."

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen not expected to attend hearing at Indiana Supreme Court

Richard Allen is asking the Supreme Court to reinstate his original defense team, which was disqualified by Special Judge Frances Gull for alleged negligence.

www.wthr.com

 

[mrjitty]

Why does CW insist on continuing to tweet about this case? She's shooting herself in the foot IMO.

In one tweet she's demanding to know why RA isn't attending, saying that the new Defense team is not communicating with them, etc.

Then we get this: <from your linked tweets above>

It is Mr. Allen's decision to be there or not. There are many reasons why people in the D.O.C. choose not to be transported. The trip is long and tiring. It poses a security risk to Mr. Allen every time he is transported.

Sit down and be quiet until 1/18 please CW, you're not doing RA any favors.

MOO

I respect her stand on the principles of the case, but i don't understand why so many of the defence lawyers around this case seem to want to stake their personal credibility on guilt/innocence.

However since I followed McStay, every US defence lawyer in cases I have followed has done this. I know it is supposedly about getting a narrative out there, but I suspect the narrative is more about getting new clients.

It was interesting following the Ghey case in the UK in December where the Kings Counsel manage to represent their clients to a high standard without proxy litigating the case on podcasts and twitter.

Obviously the law is different in the US, but like you, it sits oddly with me - especially prosecutors discuussing the case.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Why do you think CW should sit down and be quiet?
Is she violating the gag order?
Right here in the quote below is where that issue came up.
[snip]
"But on Jan. 18, Indiana State Police thinks the Capitol building will host another visitor — a man charged with the murders of two young girls in Delphi.
“I fully anticipate Richard Allen being there. We have no reason to think he won’t,” ISP Superintendent Doug Carter told 13News."

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen not expected to attend hearing at Indiana Supreme Court

Richard Allen is asking the Supreme Court to reinstate his original defense team, which was disqualified by Special Judge Frances Gull for alleged negligence.

www.wthr.com

CW may have been replying to a very general statement by DC who responsed to a direct question that was asked of him (not posted on his own X/Twitter account), but she posted 5 tweets that became more cringe with each one.

Why make something nefarious out of what finally appears to have been RA's own decision? Let's just wait until the 18th is all I'm saying.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Why make something nefarious out of what finally appears to have been RA's own decision? Let's just wait until the 18th is all I'm saying.

MOO

RSBM - perhaps the defence realised major coverage of him all shackled up like a serial killer might not be useful?

 

[FrostedGlass]

CW may have been replying to a very general statement by DC who responsed to a direct question that was asked of him (not posted on his own X/Twitter account), but she posted 5 tweets that became more cringe with each one.

Why make something nefarious out of what finally appears to have been RA's own decision? Let's just wait until the 18th is all I'm saying.

MOO

Don't you think it's her business to know if her client is going to be transported to the hearing?
I'm glad she's talking about it.

You have DC out there saying there's no reason for him not to be and they are preparing for it;
IMO you have the newD apparently coping an attitude:
CW's tweet:
"Unfortunately, Mr. Allen's current counsel in the criminal case have no interest in talking to us. In fact, one accused us of not being Mr. Allen's lawyers at all. Thankfully, this attitude is rare in the criminal defense community. We are usually pretty collegial with one another because we know it is what is best for the client."

 

[girlhasnoname]

Don't you think it's her business to know if her client is going to be transported to the hearing?
I'm glad she's talking about it.

You have DC out there saying there's no reason for him not to be and they are preparing for it;
IMO you have the newD apparently coping an attitude:
CW's tweet:
"Unfortunately, Mr. Allen's current counsel in the criminal case have no interest in talking to us. In fact, one accused us of not being Mr. Allen's lawyers at all. Thankfully, this attitude is rare in the criminal defense community. We are usually pretty collegial with one another because we know it is what is best for the client."

I agree it's HER business to know RA's situation, I just don't know understand why she has to publicize it to the world on Twitter. I don't see any other lawyers involved in the case doing this, but I could have overlooked it because I don't follow Twitter personally.

Why would she call out RA's Defense Team on Twitter? How is that helping her client? It just seems highly unprofessional and unnecessary to me. But again, that is just my opinion.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

RSBM - perhaps the defence realised major coverage of him all shackled up like a serial killer might not be useful?

That is exactly the point of my original post. She has brought unnecessary attention to RA that might have probably not been even thought about.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I agree it's HER business to know RA's situation, I just don't know understand why she has to publicize it to the world on Twitter. I don't see any other lawyers involved in the case doing this, but I could have overlooked it because I don't follow Twitter personally.

Why would she call out RA's Defense Team on Twitter? How is that helping her client? It just seems highly unprofessional and unnecessary to me. But again, that is just my opinion.

MOO

Maybe her response wasn't the best but MOO it's understandable why she reacted.

WTHR apparently only contacted her after DC went on the news about all the precautions they were taking in preparation of his transport:
[snip]
Carter said in anticipation of Allen’s visit, ISP’s special operations unit will be assigned to the Indiana Statehouse before, during and after the Supreme Court hearing.
“We’ll take the relevant precautions. Most people won’t even see him,” Carter said.
The Supreme Court chamber is located on the north side of the Capitol Building on the third floor. It is literally just down the hall from the House and Senate chambers.
Carter told 13News there will be added security at the Statehouse on Jan. 18. In addition to more state police officers, he said visitors might notice officers from the Indiana Department of Correction, who will escort Allen directly to and from the courtroom.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen not expected to attend hearing at Indiana Supreme Court

Richard Allen is asking the Supreme Court to reinstate his original defense team, which was disqualified by Special Judge Frances Gull for alleged negligence.

www.wthr.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

Maybe her response wasn't the best but MOO it's understandable why she reacted.

WTHR apparently only contacted her after DC went on the news about all the precautions they were taking in preparation of his transport:
[snip]
Carter said in anticipation of Allen’s visit, ISP’s special operations unit will be assigned to the Indiana Statehouse before, during and after the Supreme Court hearing.
“We’ll take the relevant precautions. Most people won’t even see him,” Carter said.
The Supreme Court chamber is located on the north side of the Capitol Building on the third floor. It is literally just down the hall from the House and Senate chambers.
Carter told 13News there will be added security at the Statehouse on Jan. 18. In addition to more state police officers, he said visitors might notice officers from the Indiana Department of Correction, who will escort Allen directly to and from the courtroom.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen not expected to attend hearing at Indiana Supreme Court

Richard Allen is asking the Supreme Court to reinstate his original defense team, which was disqualified by Special Judge Frances Gull for alleged negligence.

www.wthr.com

I perceived DC as downplaying it a little, there was actually this line also in your above snipped portion in response to the direct question 'if there were any special arrangements being made' because the Legislature will be in full swing also:
<snipped>
Carter said in anticipation of Allen’s visit, ISP’s special operations unit will be assigned to the Indiana Statehouse before, during and after the Supreme Court hearing “We’ll take the relevant precautions. Most people won’t even see him,” Carter said.

And this:
<snipped>
Asked about the overall impact on business taking place inside the Capitol building, Carter said he expects there to be little.
“Zero. Business will continue to happen just like it does normally,” Carter said.

JMO