IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[Ward Thisperer]

Perhaps we should ask Rozzi and DH why they forgot to mention the part where the old friend who dropped by after work and snuck in and stole the photos was actually working on the case?

BR was pretty open about the fact that AB basically used MW as an informal consultant. How does that address the question as to whether the orders were broken?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I didn't post this

Whoops, corrected

 

[mrjitty]

I'm not sure how to feel about any of this. I'm not comfortable with the belief system that every word from the D is a lie and every word from the P is truth. That possible omissions from the D should be grounds for severe reprimands, while possible omissions from LE are summarily dismissed without hearing.

It took NMcL nearly a year and three months to correct the charges against RA. RA has been in IDOC most of that time, without private access to his lawyers. JG hasn't followed due process.

The D have done things they shouldn't have done, yes, and they should be sanctioned. But why are all the wrongdoings done by the rest of the parties not punishable?

I'm exhausted for the families.

I share these concerns and would simply say multiple things can be true.

Judge Gull should recuse because her botched removal creates a perception of bias. 100% agree (I'd like to see what SCOIN said about it first though).

But also, misleading the Judge is bad. Not just because professionally you are not allowed to do it. But it is bad for your client.

 

[mrjitty]

BR was pretty open about the fact that AB basically used MW as an informal consultant.

To me pretty open means telling the judge the whole story. Nowhere did they say oh by the way AB actually showed MW the Franks. And he wasn't just an old friend - he was given access to detailed materials and was working as an ad hoc consultant on the case. That is highly misleading to conceal the relationship.

How does that address the question as to whether the orders were broken?

My point was that the fact that they concealed these crucial details raises an implication they are lying about all of it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

They basically, if not literally, took their law degrees, their credibility, and their careers and lit them on fire. And for what? What was in it for them? Did they see the trial as a chance to make themselves household names, big bucks, like OJ's lawyers or Baez? How did they not understand it was all going to lead right back to them, a trail so obvious a kindergartener could follow?

I keep trying to make sense of it, but I can't. Maybe they've been this level of unethical all along, and it was only the level of attention on this case that meant they got caught, I don't know.

MOO

Yes and Yes IMO.

I think they've been underhanded all along and saw this case as a way to gain notoriety and the all consuming 15 minutes of fame mentality we've seen from so many in this case (yeah, looking at you SM, Podcasters, Appellate Attorney). Just like them swearing they'd represent RA Pro Bono because this case meant so much to them and they were so close and personal to RA and his family. Hah, I thought that was a lie the moment I read it in their statement. IMO

Not that I'm saying any Public Defender shouldn't be compensated, of course they should. It''s just another example of R&B's sneaky ways. Let's put this out into the public (we're so noble and determined to represent Rick) and then the minute it is over, they did a taksie backsie.

Neither one of those attorneys have the money or resources to finance a years long trial without having paying clients and spending all of their time devoted only on RA. I believe Rozzi referenced he "had a life, a practice and clients to think about" during the Oct 19th in chambers meeting with the Judge and then agreed to withdraw. Another sneaky move.

They cannot be trusted with a paper clip at this point and I think they should be DQ'd. What they've done is not just some small misconduct error, it's a whole willful act and reckless conspiracy IMO. A man committed suicide over the fall out of these leaks. A slap on the wrist or a sanction isn't going to cut it for me.

Sorry for the long ranty response, I just found out about this and I'm still processing.

All MOO

 

[FromGermany1]

When we talk about the crime scene, wouldn't it start at the end of the bridge when Abby and Libby were told to go down the hill?

As far as being fact. It's hard to know all the facts until trial, at this time we have evidence. RA was there that day, in that area, wearing clothes matching BG that Libby took. RA placed himself there by his own admission, witnesses saw RA there.

For me, I believe RA was near the crime scene because he said he was, witnesses saw him, and Libby took a photo that looks like him to me. The photo Libby took appears to me to be just prior to being instructed to go down the hill. Wouldn't that be considered a crime scene?

If I remember well (maybe not), it was said by LE sometime, that the crime scene started at the entry sign to the trail. Wasn't there supposed to be someone (BG?) standing there, looking at the sign?

 

[girlhasnoname]

(I messed up the quoting function— this is a response to @girlhasnoname IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174 sorry!!)
SBM- where is it alleged that B&R gave MW access to discovery? The motion alleges that he let him read the FM and discussed the case with him. It only insinuates that MW was given access to the office by citing the letter from BR, which doesn’t say MW was allowed to view discovery, only that they should have had better security. In what way does that break any order?

The CS photos and depositions are part of Discovery and under the Gag Order. AB allowed MW and even another outside party to view them and he discussed the ongoing case with him. Section 15 page 4 of the States Motion.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I'm not sure how to feel about any of this. I'm not comfortable with the belief system that every word from the D is a lie and every word from the P is truth. That possible omissions from the D should be grounds for severe reprimands, while possible omissions from LE are summarily dismissed without hearing.

It took NMcL nearly a year and three months to correct the charges against RA. RA has been in IDOC most of that time, without private access to his lawyers. JG hasn't followed due process.

The D have done things they shouldn't have done, yes, and they should be sanctioned. But why are all the wrongdoings done by the rest of the parties not punishable?

I'm exhausted for the families.

For me, the outrage is that the girl's families discovered that the stolen pictures of their deceased naked bodies were posted on the internet. That is disgusting and inexcusable, imo.

NMcL updated the charges against RA recently, which is not unusual nor any kind of actionable offence. It is pretty routine from cases I've followed. Things change and the charges are adjusted accordingly. imo

I am not sure why RA hasn't been having private access to attorneys. Aren't they allowed to visit him?

As for Judge G, I think her deficiencies and weird actions were in some ways a reaction to what was going on with the DT. She was trying to deal with their shenanigans the best way she could---and did make some poor choices in that regard.

I do not believe that the prosecution or LE have been repeatedly lying to the court in the same manner that this defense duo has. Maybe I am wrong. I hope we know soon.

 

[katydid23]

BR was pretty open about the fact that AB basically used MW as an informal consultant. How does that address the question as to whether the orders were broken?

I am pretty sure that using a non-employee, non-attorney as an informal consultant is in violation of the gag order. It stipulates who is allowed to see the sealed documents and pictures, and MW would not fit the criteria.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

It's been clear to me all along that AB and BR were intentionally concealing the true circumstances from the Court. Especially because in chambers, and in Court, they all (including DH) conspicuously avoided some of the critical facts - like was MW allowed in the war room and did AB know he was in there?

What irks me about all this, is you simply cannot deceive the Court IMO. If you messed up, you need to tell the Court all of what happened and not hide things. They obscured this from the Court, they hid it from the public while their boosters shouted from the rooftops, and they concealed it from SCOIN.

Now to some extent this is Gull's own fault for not holding the hearing so this would be on the record. But I do wonder if she knew this?

End of the day, these guys are deceitful and dishonest. I certainly feel deceived having had some sympathy for Wieneke's pleadings, personalities aside, on a constitutional basis. Did Wieneke know this???

I agree with you on this and also have suspected this scenario for some time. With one caveat; I don't think BR knew that AB had leaked information to Woodhouse or that he had been consistently sharing evidence, crime scene photos and strategies and other details of the case with MW. I think AB was more than prepared to withdraw from the case in chambers because he knew his part of the violations. I think BR was baffled because he was unaware of just how deep his partner was buried.
I also venture to guess that CW was also unaware of the states evidence against AB and the lengths he had gone to cover up his guilt.
I don't believe his email to Woodhouse in December was an accident. Woodhouse had a media channel and anti-prosecution stance. I believe if it were an accident AB would have immediately alerted his partner, the court and the prosecution of this error so they could fix it. Not just ask Woodhouse to eliminate evidence of the leak while allowing him to continue to share the information online to his many followers. The fact that this discovery had the full name of minor witnesses just makes it worse.
I also think that if AB wanted to share protected information with MW and "another civilian" including the memorandum and the attached exhibits, he should have put those parties under contract so they would have been included in the gag order. By not doing so, AB violated the gag order IMO. MW and "another civilian" are not contracted parties to the case and therefore the people that are NOT supposed to be having ongoing access to the protected information.

 

[FromGermany1]

For me, the outrage is that the girl's families discovered that the stolen pictures of their deceased naked bodies were posted on the internet. That is disgusting and inexcusable, imo.

Poor families.
What's next?

 

[FrostedGlass]

RSBM I've wondered about that a lot. Have we seen evidence that they did not sign an agreement?
MW could very well have violated it even if he was.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm thinking this is about the protective order governing discovery
and the gag order is a separate issue.

...
I also think that if AB wanted to share protected information with MW and "another civilian" including the memorandum and the attached exhibits, he should have put those parties under contract so they would have been included in the gag order. By not doing so, AB violated the gag order IMO. MW and "another civilian" are not contracted parties to the case and therefore the people that are NOT supposed to be having ongoing access to the protected information.

 

[Salah11]

.

Poor families.
What's next?

That’s what’s so sickening for me you would think it couldn’t get any worse than having your children cruelly snatched away from you yet RA and his team are continuing to violate the family daily with their antics.

IMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

They basically, if not literally, took their law degrees, their credibility, and their careers and lit them on fire. And for what? What was in it for them? Did they see the trial as a chance to make themselves household names, big bucks, like OJ's lawyers or Baez? How did they not understand it was all going to lead right back to them, a trail so obvious a kindergartener could follow?

I keep trying to make sense of it, but I can't. Maybe they've been this level of unethical all along, and it was only the level of attention on this case that meant they got caught, I don't know.

MOO

And in destroying their credibility, they have destroyed their ability to provide effective defense to their client. IMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

RSBM I've wondered about that a lot. Have we seen evidence that they did not sign an agreement?
MW could very well have violated it even if he was.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm thinking this is about the protective order governing discovery
and the gag order is a separate issue.

My understanding is both orders were standing by the time AB began sharing information with MW and " the other civilian".

 

[TL4S]

MS talking about the contempt motion and leak.

The Delphi Murders: A Contempt of Court Filing

 

[girlhasnoname]

If I remember well (maybe not), it was said by LE sometime, that the crime scene started at the entry sign to the trail. Wasn't there supposed to be someone (BG?) standing there, looking at the sign?

From The PCA: Page 2 I guess RA=BG did walk up on them from behind. This was in the Courts Document Dump

<snipped & BBM>

The video recovered from Victim 2's phone shows Victim1 walking southeast on the Manon High Bridge while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. "As the male subject" approaches Victim 1 and Victim 2, one of the victims mentions "gun". Near the end of the video male is seen and heard telling the girls, -"Guys,Down the hill" The girls then begin to proceed do'wn the hill and the video ends. A still photograph taken from the video and the "Guys, Down the hill" audio was subsequently released to the public to assist investigators in identifying the male.

DocumentCloud

 

[FrostedGlass]

My understanding is both orders were standing by the time AB began sharing information with MW and " the other civilian".

That's true but they are 2 different issues, as I understand them.

 

[FrostedGlass]

MS talking about the contempt motion and leak.

The Delphi Murders: A Contempt of Court Filing

Are you going to listen and then summarize?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

BR was pretty open about the fact that AB basically used MW as an informal consultant. How does that address the question as to whether the orders were broken?

Because he wasn't a consultant and he framed MW as a thief. Which is the opposite of being "open". He did this in attempt to separate himself and the defense from the leak. In fact initially they proclaimed there was no way the leak came from defense. Even in chambers they tried to insinuate that it was a clerk on the other side. Thou dost protest too much.
MW was a civilian, "the public" and should not have been allowed access to any of the evidence, crime scene photos, discovery, defense strategies or details of the case outside of what had been released to the public legally.