Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[Wells]

I've hesitated saying this because it doesn't matter but in regards to the voice sounding familiar... the first time I heard the audio BG sounded, to me, exactly like Kevin Costner in Field of Dreams. I'm completely serious. But also, I'm not implicating Kevin Costner. My point being, voices can be familiar for a variety of reasons. Those reasons could have merit...or they could be just...a Field of Dreams

 

[Angelcat13]

I understand they are most likely completely overwhelmed by the number of creeps out there...but I wish we could prevent crimes rather than wait until someone is assaulted and murdered until it's taken seriously.
I think BG goes to this bridge to fantasize and has been there since.

I think so much of what gets reported and taken seriously when it comes to public lewdness complaints/Crimes depends on where you live. IMO, an urban area with a high incidence of murders, assaults, gangs, etc, LE probably ranks public lewdness pretty low on list of crimes worth worrying about.

In areas where crime is pretty low I think one of two things could happen - and a lot may depend on the education/experience/personal beliefs of LE. In some instances LE may aggressively pursue this type of report since they may not have much else on their plate and/or they want to try to make sure that it is dealt with so the area keeps their “safe” feeling/reputation.

Or, LE may, unfortunately, not understand/believe that these types of people often progress to much worse crimes.

I also think it may depend on the perpetrator. If they are young, attractive, seem normal, are educated/employed/successful and/or from a good family, LE may be less likely to believe that this person is really committing a crime and may just put it off to “boys will be boys”.

Again, all of this is IMO, but I do feel there are several factors that go into how seriously these crimes are viewed by LE.

 

[Charlot123]

A gun would do the trick. You can’t run far from a bullet. Bank robbers can freeze a bankful of tellers and customers in their tracks by announcing they have a gun.

I, too, think it was a gun. The girls were suspicious of him. I can't imagine their suspicion disappearing in a second, no matter what he said.

 

[mtnlites]

I think LE was extremely clear on this actually:

“We’re releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully.”

I also think they've been very clear on this. At one point early on they even stated that they were looking for just one person. I've been surprised at the number of people who think there may have been more than one. We're talking two kids here. Smart and mature kids, but still kids. We are all coming at this as adults with experience under our belts; I have zero trouble believing that an adult using intimidation, force, and even a bit of luck could get two children to move from Point A to Point B all by himself.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Good thinking outside the box. He could have been trying to frame RL or he could have seen the OBG there days before and then came dressed like him. JMO because I read on a FB page in 2017 where a young man states he had an altercation with a guy dressed like OBG and stressed about the blue jacket. If others saw OBG hanging around then any one could have dressed like him.

It always puzzled me how OBG and NBG were dressed in similar clothes.

Quoted bbm

This bugs me endlessly!

Is that a coincidence, or could it be the same 'body' with two different faces?

Carter said during the GMA interview,

"You take the head off the person and you recognize the body!!"

That's an odd way phrasing things!

He also stated that the person may end up looking like something between both sketches.
Some may remember I had a hard time accepting this statement at first. It was clarified later on by Carter himself...!!!

If it is two different people (and I am clearly not convinced) then what are the odds of two people on (or near) the trail on the same day, at the same time, wearing the same clothes with very similar physical descriptions with two different faces?

All-out manhunt underway for main suspect in murders of two Delphi teens

"Police believe the man may have changed his look to try and hide his identity. They are asking every Hoosier to keep their eyes and ears open."

Sorry...I keep going back to the statement (paraphrase) "We were onto something early on."

...and here goes the merry-go-round once again!

JMO
Edited for clarity

 

[Deleted member 102539]

[

Although it is possible that BG May have been masturbating or otherwise being lewd in some manner, I don’t really see Abby & Libby being the kind of girls that would have mocked him or laughed at him. They were young and seemed to still be pretty innocent. I think if they saw him doing anything lewd they would have been horrified, embarrassed, etc and would have either tried to pretend they didn’t notice or would try to get away from him quickly.

And, IMO, I don’t think Libby would have filmed him doing this because I think it would have been something she would have quickly turned away from, not tried to capture it on film.

When the first still of the video appeared, I swear to remember , what was seen below the blue jacket to his right side was just a piece of a shirt. Seemed to be at least. Next time, I saw the still, there was seen something other than before: it looked like a hand (his right hand), which was pulling something light colored with index finger and thumb. At the time I thought, LE had included something, they saw in a following sequence of the video, which they couldn't show as a whole. But they wanted us to have a look on one important detail: the right hand above the zip of BG's jeans. At that time, we all were speculating, what his hand within this region would mean perhaps. BG, "playing with himself", was an option and got discussed.

This pic with the "right hand pulling something" I saw for months and months. Suddenly sometime, the BG's "hand" became more and more indistinctly and mutated into a "kill kit bag on his belt" and we saw, that his right hand couldn't be in that position at the zip, because his right arm looked to be higher up and bent (within a very crumpled sleeve).
I'm still thinking about this conversion of a publicized still of video. Why did it happen? Which pic might be the original? What do we see really?

 

[Charlot123]

I thought I did too, but I run into way too often and I do not walk down dark allies. It happens at public parks near children and not once has a LE officer taken it seriously not even in front of children. What does this say about our society? That this is ok? It's creepy and scary when it happens.
A few times I chased them off very loudly yelling at them since the LE refuse to even care. Videotaping them is effective also. Maybe that was Libby's way to get evidence on this dirty . But had no idea it end badly.

I think that partially it has to do with the fact that in prison, these pervs are not treated well. So the male policemen try not to make their lives too difficult, as they see real murderers and view these guys as "innocent" in comparison.

It is a complicated issue. Some of them, I am sure, never progress beyond this stupidity. Some do, and turn into serial killers.

(Please copy the link below into the browser to open. The article is called "Natural born killers?" Some might find it interesting. I did). In this old, from 1997, but interesting nonetheless, article, correlation of sadistic killings with paraphilias is frequently noted.

8b137d396f9b7debb227f2484922a7e0b4ad.pdf

ETA. Now I understand why LE said, "it is about control to you". He meant it was a sexually motivated killing.

 

[MuddyTires]

I strongly disagree. I've had my ear to the ground in Delphi since February of 2017; moreover, I've been close to the community and people as a whole for almost 40 years, and there is no common conclusion that the community has drawn. The people there are not any more convinced of who BG is than we are. Just like on WS and FB and everywhere else, you have small groups who think it might be Person A and other groups who think it might be Person B and then the odd one here and there who's out all by their lonesome thinking it's Person X, but there is no common consensus. People have changed their minds with every little bit of new information.

And while there MAY be certain individuals who are close to BG who might know something, I also disagree that the community at large is living in fear, afraid to talk. Go up there and spend a few weeks. Go in the restaurants. Hang out at people's houses. Go spend the day with some of the kids who the girls were friends with. Have dinner with their parents. They're not walking around with shoulders hunched and eyes averted-they WANT to talk. And I firmly believe that if they had any real information, they would. People have come out of the woodwork to share info with LE that might be helpful-people who saw something or heard something or heard OF something in the days leading up to the 13th or after.

It is highly possible that someone knows something and just doesn't know it. It's possible that BG's roommate or partner or parent suspects something, but doesn't want to face it. And I think it's even more possible that someone know a LOT, but is afraid of legal repercussions of talking. But as far as the community as a whole keeping quiet because they're afraid of being next? I don't buy it in this case-other cases, yes, but not this one.

I'm not from the community and don't know anyone there, so all I have to go on is what I read and hear locals say but I agree with you. It seems like that community has a pervasive desperation to resolve the case and those that are in the community with they had the info that could uravel the mystery.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Quoted bbm

This bugs me endlessly!

Is that a coincidence, or could it be the same 'body' with two different faces?

Carter said during the GMA interview,

"You take the head off the person and you recognize the body!!"

That's an odd way phrasing things!

He also stated that the person may end up looking like something between both sketches.
Some may remember I had a hard time accepting this statement until.it was clarified later on by Carter himself...!!!

If it is two different people (and I am clearly not convinced) then what are the odds of two people on (or near) the trail on the same day, at the same time, wearing the same clothes with very similar physical descriptions with two different faces?

All-out manhunt underway for main suspect in murders of two Delphi teens

"Police believe the man may have changed his look to try and hide his identity. They are asking every Hoosier to keep their eyes and ears open."

Sorry...I keep going back to the statement (paraphrase) "We were onto something early on."

...and here goes the merry-go-round once again!

JMO

"Take the head off the person" and put another head onto the body of the person, could mean, BG had perhaps his real head dressed up with a lifelike silicone mask, as soon as he was getting on the bridge. Masks are on the market and it would be an option. You can wear them not only for celebrating Halloween, but also at another time of course (if you are not quite right in your mind!). So maybe, BG was 100% sure, nobody would be able to recognize him in Libby's video and therefore didn't take Libby's cell phone with him. - When BG was seen by witnesses, he didn't wear the mask and only his body would have been the same as before, with the "farmer" clothing or with "all black" or whatever. MOO

 

[Jessthinkin]

Yup

its easy to say until you are actually in that situation, I would like to think I would scream, fight, run etc....

But in reality I know I would probably just stand there and try to reason with them and beg for my life

I know I would react differently to a gun or knife being pulled on me if I were by myself. If I were by myself I'd be much more likely to run, but if I were with a younger friend, or child, I would stay to "try" and protect... :/

 

[moonlessnight]

IMO -I always thought DC's gesture when he said "this much of a conscience left" was referring to BG's genital size. I don't think the girls did anything to mock BG. I think BG is impotent (with females, at least) and LE knows this, and this is why power is so important to him. This is part of the motivation for the crime and why they may not have a complete DNA profile.
MOO

I see where you're coming from and you think the finger and thumb sign was a message to BG? And perhaps the girls had mocked him and he got angry enough to kill them? And that could be on tape.
Letting that thought sink in.
It's possible, yet what about his apparent knowledge of the area and quick escape? That would make him a genius as well as an enraged micro flashing killer?

 

[MistyWaters]

Quoted bbm

This bugs me endlessly!

Is that a coincidence, or could it be the same 'body' with two different faces?

Carter said during the GMA interview,

"You take the head off the person and you recognize the body!!"

That's an odd way phrasing things!

He also stated that the person may end up looking like something between both sketches.
Some may remember I had a hard time accepting this statement at first. It was clarified later on by Carter himself...!!!

If it is two different people (and I am clearly not convinced) then what are the odds of two people on (or near) the trail on the same day, at the same time, wearing the same clothes with very similar physical descriptions with two different faces?

All-out manhunt underway for main suspect in murders of two Delphi teens

"Police believe the man may have changed his look to try and hide his identity. They are asking every Hoosier to keep their eyes and ears open."

Sorry...I keep going back to the statement (paraphrase) "We were onto something early on."

...and here goes the merry-go-round once again!

JMO
Edited for clarity

We’s been told a witness saw something they felt needed to be reported and did so 3 days after the murders. What we don’t know is when they saw something they viewed as suspicious. It could’ve been later that same evening, the next day or even the day after that when the potential suspect was wearing entirely different clothing.

If whatever that person saw didn’t occur close to the time of the murders would also explain why the witness’s tip was prioritized beneath the earlier sketch.

I think Carter’s reference to recognition of BG’s body was directed to somebody who personally knows the man on the bridge. It’d be a rare event for witnesses to claim they were 100% certain they saw the same man in the photo as people usually just came forward with “might be” sightings. Then LE, having access to other investigative information, which witnesses aren’t privy to, make the call on what sighting becomes high priority.

So that’s left me thinking the details behind the newly released sketch are somewhat insignificant to its ultimate importance in the “new direction”. Even if it turns out the witness saw somebody uninvolved who LE wasn’t able to identify. Because instead, what it accomplished - LE opened the door to obtaining tips on a younger Caucasian man who might not look exactly like the sketch - therefore it serves the purpose of inviting new and different leads to the thousands they already have processed.

Which hopefully will lead to that “one tip” they’re waiting for.

 

[somequestions]

I understand why police keep the information about the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German private, but it leaves a lot open to interpretation. There are a lot of guesses.

I think if police knew who the person was that murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German they would have arrested that person already. Police simply do not know who the person is that murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Everyone assumes the person in the sketch has something to do with the murders. Time is eventually going to show whether or not the person in the sketch(s) is the right person. Police said in the April 2019 press conference the sketch is the person who committed the murders.

I want to explain what I believe police mean when they explain that a sketch is different from a photograph. My interpretation is probably different from others and maybe even from police. This is my opinion only:

Someone may actually recognize the person from either of the two sketches and it may turn out they were just a person out on the trails that day. But if someone recognizes the person from the video on Liberty German's phone, that will solve the case.

 

[mtnlites]

I understand why police keep the information about the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German private, but it leaves a lot open to interpretation. There are a lot of guesses.

I think if police knew who the person was that murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German they would have arrested that person already. Police simply do not know who the person is that murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Everyone assumes the person in the sketch has something to do with the murders. Time is eventually going to show whether or not the person in the sketch(s) is the right person. Police said in the April 2019 press conference the sketch is the person who committed the murders.

I want to explain what I believe police mean when they explain that a sketch is different from a photograph. My interpretation is probably different from others and maybe even from police. This is my opinion only:

Someone may actually recognize the person from either of the two sketches and it may turn out they were just a person out on the trails that day. But if someone recognizes the person from the video on Liberty German's phone, that will solve the case.

To me it simply means that a sketch is not a photo. It may or may not look exactly like the person because it's subjective based upon a witness' memory and attention to details so we shouldn't take every aspect of the sketch as gospel. Don't NOT turn in a tip because the person you know has ears or eyes or whatever that are slightly different from what's in the sketch. Working with a sketch artist is difficult and very few sketches look exactly like the perp. They should be taken as tools in the investigation, not completely relied upon as the sole source of identification.

This is why people like us probably won't directly assist in solving the case. We can find all kinds of people who look just like one of the sketches, but we don't have any extra information to back that up. Calling LE and saying, "This guy on FB looks just like the sketch" isn't nearly as helpful as saying, "I have this neighbor who resembles the sketch and on the evening of the 13th I remember seeing him in his backyard, frantically hosing blood off his workboots."

 

[MistyWaters]

"Take the head off the person" and put another head onto the body of the person, could mean, BG had perhaps his real head dressed up with a lifelike silicone mask, as soon as he was getting on the bridge. Masks are on the market and it would be an option. You can wear them not only for celebrating Halloween, but also at another time of course (if you are not quite right in your mind!). So maybe, BG was 100% sure, nobody would be able to recognize him in Libby's video and therefore didn't take Libby's cell phone with him. - When BG was seen by witnesses, he didn't wear the mask and only his body would have been the same as before, with the "farmer" clothing or with "all black" or whatever. MOO

For the first five months when only the photos and audio had been released virtually all the theories on the early threads involved a younger person (aside from mistaken allegations against RL who looked nothing like the photo anyway IMO). In fact iirc posters here were shocked five months later when the first sketch was released and it was announced the suspect was believed to be as old as 40s to 50s. Even DN didn’t fit that age range.

Now some see an older man in the blurry facial photo so it must be a young man must be wearing a disguise? Interesting because after those first five months I still see a young man, age appropriate to 20s to 30s. Regardless that only serves to prove the facial imagery isn’t clear enough to recognize his face. If his face can’t be recognized, how could it be known he’s wearing a disguise including a mask?

 

[BNA]

IMO -I always thought DC's gesture when he said "this much of a conscience left" was referring to BG's genital size. I don't think the girls did anything to mock BG. I think BG is impotent (with females, at least) and LE knows this, and this is why power is so important to him. This is part of the motivation for the crime and why they may not have a complete DNA profile.
MOO

I really doubt this is the case. I think he simply meant to say to the killer that he believed he had a little bit of conscience left. I should add that this has caused me to believe that they know exactly who the killer is, and something that they know about the guy leads them to believe that there is a conscience in there somewhere.

This interpretation springs from my increasing confidence that the use of SC (or a similar app) is involved....if you get my drift.

 

[MistyWaters]

ISP Sgt Holeman has been described as the lead investigator in the case since almost the beginning. His comments on the 2nd anniversary are interesting to reflect back on, maybe a hint of the new direction taken in April and returning focus to Delphi in the hopes “somebody knows this person”.

BBM

Feb 13, 2019

“When it comes to the case, Holeman said they get new tips in every day and it's not only the new tips that detectives are looking at.

"We're going to exhaust all investigative leads on this tip and then we might circle back around and look at it again and we might circle back around look at it again," he said.

And while the case has captured attention around the country and the world, he said the internet detectives and the rumors circulating on the internet don't help the case.
"What we don't want is the public's theories, the public's investigative suggestions," Holeman said.

And those theories that are being constantly called into the tip line slow down investigators.

"We do not want the public to investigate this case. We're asking the public's help to identify the one person that we've called a suspect," he said....”
Delphi, Indiana murders: 2 years later, lead investigator updates case

 

[mtnlites]

For the first five months when only the photos and audio had been released virtually all the theories on the early threads involved a younger person (aside from mistaken allegations against RL who looked nothing like the photo anyway IMO). In fact iirc posters here were shocked five months later when the first sketch was released and it was announced the suspect was believed to be as old as 40s to 50s. Even DN didn’t fit that age range.

Now some see an older man in the blurry facial photo so it must be a young man must be wearing a disguise? Interesting because after those first five months I still see a young man, age appropriate to 20s to 30s. Regardless that only serves to prove the facial imagery isn’t clear enough to recognize his face. If his face can’t be recognized, how could it be known he’s wearing a disguise?

This is what I don't understand. If LE literally tells us to ignore the face and focus on the body (because the face isn't clear enough to see the details) then how can anyone be certain that he's wearing a fake nose, mask, wig, etc.? We can't even agree on whether he's wearing a hat or if he just has really bad hair. The image is THAT pixelated.

If a mask or disguise were truly discernible from the image in which we've been provided, it seems to me that LE would include it in the description because there'd be a great chance that a person would remember if their spouse/roommate/friend/partner had such a thing or recently purchased one.

And what would be the point? People would absolutely remember a man in a mask going for a stroll in the park. A baseball cap or hood pulled down low, head bent downwards, and a collar turned up would offer a similar amount of coverage but wouldn't look weird on a public walking trail.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

For the first five months when only the photos and audio had been released virtually all the theories on the early threads involved a younger person (aside from mistaken allegations against RL who looked nothing like the photo anyway IMO). In fact iirc posters here were shocked five months later when the first sketch was released and it was announced the suspect was believed to be as old as 40s to 50s. Even DN didn’t fit that age range.

Now some see an older man in the blurry facial photo so it must be a young man must be wearing a disguise? Interesting because after those first five months I still see a young man, age appropriate to 20s to 30s. Regardless that only serves to prove the facial imagery isn’t clear enough to recognize his face. If his face can’t be recognized, how could it be known he’s wearing a disguise including a mask?

There has to be a certain reason, if some witness/es say, BG looked like a young man (NBG) and some witness/es say, BG looked like an older man (OBG), but the body was described as the same (height/weight/proportion/shoe size/perhaps even clothing). Perhaps that was "the twist", of which we heard early on in the investigation? If the head was different, but the body wasn't, a perfect lifelike mask could have been in the play, although a little bit absurd (as absurd as the whole murder case seems). Nobody knows of a mask, but one can think about it at least. Might have been the look of a buddy, for example, someone with a beard, but the optic put on BG's special customized mask. The video, Libby taped so very well, shows in it's stills a different image all the time: BG with shadow like a beard, BG without shadow like a beard, BG with bulky nose, BG without bulky nose - so the face in this video isn't recognizable really. We have to go with BG's optic re face like my avatar shows. MOO
ETA: some things

 

[mtnlites]

There has to be a certain reason, if some witness/es say, BG looked like a young man (NBG) and some witness/es say, BG looked like an older man (OBG), but the body was described as the same (height/weight/proportion/perhaps even clothing). Perhaps that was "the twist", of which we heard early on in the investigation? If the head was different, but the body wasn't, then maybe it was a perp with a doppelganger () or a perfect lifelike mask could have been in the play, although a little bit absurd (as absurd as the whole murder case seems). Nobody knows of a mask, but one can think about it at least. Might have a been an image of a buddy, for example, someone with a beard. The video, Libby taped so very well, shows in it's stills a different image all the time: BG with shadow like a beard, BG without shadow like a beard, BG with bulky nose, BG without bulky nose - so the face in this video isn't recognizable really. MOO

The body never changed. Height and weight were most likely based upon the video clip that Libby took and the video has not been in question. It's only the face that's changed-a face that was never clear in the video to begin with (we were even told to ignore it and to focus on the body). It makes perfect sense to me that the sketch of the face could change while the weight/height remained the same.