Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[Jabarn]

BBM - it looks that way

Where I live (not Indiana) LE doesn’t consult with the prosecutors on every case necessarily, but a whodunnit high profile double homicide they would and do. The prosecutor doesn’t direct the investigation - It’s more of a collaborative effort.

The legal and LE fields are on the same team and have the same goals, but they also have different thresholds they have to meet to achieve those goals. They walk a fine line between public safety and patiently working a case to the point they can secure a conviction.

LE wants to make an arrest and they need probable cause. They have to convince a judge or attorney that it is more probable than not that BG murdered LG and AW based on the evidence they have for an arrest warrant.

Legal wants a conviction (LE too of course) and they need beyond a reasonable doubt. They have to convince a jury (or possibly just a judge - I think the chances of an acquittal are better with a jury though) that there is no doubt BG murdered LG and AW.

A case of this magnitude I would think they’d want to have things pretty buttoned up from the get go because no one wants to risk an acquittal or hung jury. I suspect the defense might request a change of venue in this case which makes the jury pool a little more unpredictable.

Just my thoughts. Sorry for my wordy posts today.

With the multi-agency task force working united, is there truth Ives is back to work? I can’t find anything in MSM.

Carroll County prosecutor to retire amidst high-profile investigations

 

[mtnlites]

BBM - it looks that way

Where I live (not Indiana) LE doesn’t consult with the prosecutors on every case necessarily, but a whodunnit high profile double homicide they would and do. The prosecutor doesn’t direct the investigation - It’s more of a collaborative effort.

The legal and LE fields are on the same team and have the same goals, but they also have different thresholds they have to meet to achieve those goals. They walk a fine line between public safety and patiently working a case to the point they can secure a conviction.

LE wants to make an arrest and they need probable cause. They have to convince a judge or attorney that it is more probable than not that BG murdered LG and AW based on the evidence they have for an arrest warrant.

Legal wants a conviction (LE too of course) and they need beyond a reasonable doubt. They have to convince a jury (or possibly just a judge - I think the chances of an acquittal are better with a jury though) that there is no doubt BG murdered LG and AW.

A case of this magnitude I would think they’d want to have things pretty buttoned up from the get go because no one wants to risk an acquittal or hung jury. I suspect the defense might request a change of venue in this case which makes the jury pool a little more unpredictable.

Just my thoughts. Sorry for my wordy posts today.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing a difference in what I said vs what you said. Same idea, different order of words. I just didn't walk through the whole legal process.

Unless, as someone else said, they have the guy on 24/7 surveillance then no amount of back and forth is going to convince me that they would continue to put the public in danger by "waiting" for the elusive evidence *might* cinch the case.

There's apparently enough out there already for a judge to issue search warrants, considering that they've been issued and searches already made. They've made multiple references to the evidence they have, including items that have been sent off to be "tested".

Sure things can go awry and screw up an investigation: Evidence obtained without a valid search warrant, improper evidence chain of custody, evidence incorrectly handled/removed from the scene/stored evidence, contaminated crime scene, etc. can all make things inadmissible in a trial. That's not what my post was about at all, however. I was simply stating that due to my professional experience, as well as my experience as a child/adult who grew up around LE, I do not believe that they have a specific person in mind and are biding their time for an arrest. I wish they did, but I don't believe they do. YMMV.

 

[Cutiekitty]

With the multi-agency task force working united, is there truth Ives is back to work? I can’t find anything in MSM.

Carroll County prosecutor to retire amidst high-profile investigations

I don’t see any articles, but a Robert T Ives was sworn in according to mycase. Those links disappear so I didn’t want to post it. Is this the same attorney?

 

[susiQ]

Under no circumstance he is dead, I believe. (My POI from 2017 is.)

My last POI is dead. My most recent is alive and well unfortunately, but fortunately, in prison. I really hope it is him and someone will "roll over" to confirm it, but I have my doubts. If they get a "get out of jail free card" for giving that "one tip" that nails him, they may not be free for long, rather also dead. Those "get out of jail free cards" can come at a very high price. Speculation only, naturally.

 

[cluciano63]

This is exactly what transpired in the Sierra Lamar case

Imo there was not much mystery in who killed Sierra, even if charges took a while...unlike this case in every way, to me.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo but I am not so sure watching a suspect 24/7 is done much except on TV or is all that feasible. At least not for months or years on end.

I find it unlikely that a child murderer wouldn’t have some other crimes or warrants that could put him behind bars for the meantime. And there is no sign of that being the case here, as LE asks for tips as to who he is whenever they address the public. Jmo they would not want hundreds, or thousands, of new “tips” if not needed.

 

[Boxer]

With the multi-agency task force working united, is there truth Ives is back to work? I can’t find anything in MSM.

Carroll County prosecutor to retire amidst high-profile investigations

Cant find MSM on this - seems to have disappered. New DA swore Ives in as one of the deputy DA's.

Case Search - MyCase

 

[kkdj]

I could see that as well, but if that were the case then it seems like their pressers would be less about asking family/friends to identify him and more about trying to place him at the park that day.

Maybe they can place him at the park that day but there's something else missing for the prosecutor.

 

[kkdj]

Jmo but I am not so sure watching a suspect 24/7 is done much except on TV or is all that feasible. At least not for months or years on end.

I find it unlikely that a child murderer wouldn’t have some other crimes or warrants that could put him behind bars for the meantime. And there is no sign of that being the case here, as LE asks for tips as to who he is whenever they address the public. Jmo they would not want hundreds, or thousands, of new “tips” if not needed.

They watched Jodi Arias 24/7 so I know it does happen.

 

[IminSyd]

My musings- nothing new really just my current train of though...

- did a witness came forward in the days after the girls were found who stated they had noticed someone acting suspiciously at the trails in the days after (checking escape route etc). The description given is the young bg sketch. LE had the image from Libby’s phone which looks nothing like young BG so put young BG aside at this time. Was BG “disguised” on the 13th - possible the girls didn’t immediately recognise him as he looked much older?

- did LE make the comment that BG got around quickly on that day as he also turned up for the search?

- I feel like the DNA evidence from crime scene is not good enough to identify or even rule out killer (as nothing has happened from it after all this time). This suggests to me no SA at the scene. This seems also backed up by the tight time frame. Alternative motive is that one or both of the girls had knowledge of a recent crime that would lead to serious consequences for someone who decided to kill girls rather than face hefty prison sentence/ruin of reputation.

I do think it was someone known to girls in some way.

MOO

 

[Angelcat13]

This.

One of my best friends' Dad worked with GR at Kenworth for years. It was smack dab in the middle of GR's "hunting zone". BF's Dad said he was suspected to be the GRK for so long, it became a (sick) "joke" amongst GR and some of his co-workers.

Wow!

 

[somequestions]

Police and lawyers do different things. Hence the caveat:

Solving a case and proving it are two different things.

 

[MistyWaters]

Unless someone offered one tip” after the PC, I do not think LE has a suspect in mind.

If they did, to place the burden upon Delphi by stating an evil murderer is hiding in plain sight, somebody between the ages of 20ish to late 30s who might look younger and not exactly like the 2+ year old new sketch but maybe a little like the older sketch is cruel and heartless IMO. Unnecessarily causing suspicion upon innocent local men who just happen to match the vague description is just something I don’t believe LE would intentionally do unless it was an absolute last resort. Suspicion has the potential to not only strain but ruin relationships and otherwise make lives miserable because until there’s an arrest and conviction, nobody falsely presumed guilty has the ability to prove themselves innocent.

I hope the community in general is able to rise above, rather than turning inward while awaiting indications of positive investigative progress.

 

[Charlot123]

and THE GRK (The Green River Killer) aka Gary Ridgeway was hiding in plain sight as an average joe. Not even a genius or criminal mastermind either.

You know, he might have had a higher “real” IQ, after all, he served in the Navy. I think he had severe dyslexia, and hence his academic performance was so bad. But officially, you are right, not a smartie.

 

[moonlessnight]

"- did LE make the comment that BG got around quickly on that day as he also turned up for the search?"

interesting idea. I've always wondered what that meant. Maybe they know he escaped, changed clothes, got rid of evidence, and came back for the search. that would make sense in regards to that comment.

My musings- nothing new really just my current train of though...

- did a witness came forward in the days after the girls were found who stated they had noticed someone acting suspiciously at the trails in the days after (checking escape route etc). The description given is the young bg sketch. LE had the image from Libby’s phone which looks nothing like young BG so put young BG aside at this time. Was BG “disguised” on the 13th - possible the girls didn’t immediately recognise him as he looked much older?

- did LE make the comment that BG got around quickly on that day as he also turned up for the search?

- I feel like the DNA evidence from crime scene is not good enough to identify or even rule out killer (as nothing has happened from it after all this time). This suggests to me no SA at the scene. This seems also backed up by the tight time frame. Alternative motive is that one or both of the girls had knowledge of a recent crime that would lead to serious consequences for someone who decided to kill girls rather than face hefty prison sentence/ruin of reputation.

I do think it was someone known to girls in some way.

MOO

 

[mtnlites]

Police and lawyers do different things. Hence the caveat:

Solving a case and proving it are two different things.

Yes, exactly.

 

[cody22]

Off Topic - Possible mass shooting at a Costco in Corona, California.

 

[mtnlites]

They watched Jodi Arias 24/7 so I know it does happen.

To be fair, though, she was questioned and acted weird from the very beginning.

 

[moonlessnight]

totally agree. a sympathetic, respectable, god fearing witness who insists the suspect was somewhere else would blow the case. they need the alibi to turn. I don't believe that will ever happen. they will get him finally by a mistake - a slip of the tongue.

Though I agree with you, let ponder this possibility

They are confident they know who it is but do not have:

A murder Weapon
An Eye witness
Someone to Refute an alibi
Physical evidence
A DNA Sample or usable DNA

I think they are after someone to refute this guys alibi, that hopefully start this chain of dominoes falling over and get this turd arrested!

Can police present quietly to the District Attorney to see if they would proceed with what they have?

 

[Charlot123]

I think he selected the "down the hill" location in advance - scoped out the place. My hunch is that he lured one/both girls there for the purpose of murder and display, but it could be he roams around waiting for the right victim to come along at the right time.

I totally think BF knows the area, but not someone who lives in Delphi itself. I think it's someone who looks local enough - who wouldn't stand out as an outsider on the trail - but who isn't so local that people recognize him. For people where he lives, they wouldn't suspect him so the don't "see" him in the photo.

I think with the planning and likely thrill of watching the reaction, this is not a drug user. His thoughts are dirty but his mind is clear, ykwim?

jmo

Maybe I am wrong, but to me, many men in Indiana look similar. It is not surprising. First, they are mostly white. The way Indiana was colonized, it seems, several families moved from PA. Maybe there was need in workforce later, but to me, it seems, there was little outside migration. So Hoosiers are probably all 4th cousins. The sketch looks typical to them. (To me as well, btw).

How it might matter? Well, DNA. If you have DNA and it is someone “local”, not necessarily Delphi local, but IN local - there should be matches. If not in IN, then in PA.

So if the DNA yielded no matches to help with the tree, then likely, it was either touch DNA, or something they extracted mito DNA from.