Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[CSIDreamer]

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Jax49Florida Native
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I don't recall that the incident was ever even confirmed. I thought it was just one of many rumors.

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Here is a link to the photographer's comment regarding seeing girls clothing in Deer Creek. And the comment for those who don't do FB. BBM

J Kyle Keener

IT HAS BEEN A TRAGIC DAY IN CARROLL COUNTY, INDIANA, the scene of a double murder. One thing they never teach you in journalism school is how creepy it feels to have to cover a homicide. For several hours I photographed the search for two missing 13-year-old girls. This type of endeavor is stressful for the searchers, the first responders and also the media at the scene. Detectives found the bodies of two missing teens near a rural hiking trail below the abandoned Monon high railroad bridge. The bridge itself in incredibly beautiful making it difficult to witness a horrific murder scene so nearby. From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby. To walk in a place that a murderer had walked only a handful of hours earlier is extremely upsetting, but as journalists it is part of the business that simply needs done to tell the news of our area. Photos by J. Kyle Keener / Pharos-Tribune copyright 2017

Mar 18, 2017Report
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That bolded comment has bugged me forever. I have so many questions about that statement.

 

[IceIce9]

That bolded comment has bugged me forever. I have so many questions about that statement.

I have always wondered about that comment too.

But how could he tell it was girls clothing in the creek from 75 yards away? That distance is 3/4 of a football field. If he saw something in the water from a distance of 75 yards it would be impossible to tell if it was girls clothing, women’s clothing, men’s clothing, or T-shirts and towels from someone who went swimming.

I walk trails often, and it is common to see shirts, towels, etc.at the edge of the water or in the water. Just yesterday I saw 3 hat and a couple of shirts.

 

[Cutiekitty]

The cemetery is something I keep going back to, as well. From where the girls ended up, the cemetery seems important because:

-It's close proximity to the crime
-A possible place for BG to park
-A possible direction for the girls to head to get back to the road if fleeing from or simply trying to avoid BG on the trail

Ditto for the same reasons you stated except I’d add - It would actually be easier to get to the scene from the cemetery (no creek crossing needed). It’s a straight shot “down a hill”.

Some reports make it seem desolate, but RL stated his kids used to play there so it was an area that at least some people were recreationally familiar with. In a couple of videos I’ve seen you can actually see paths, but I’m not sure if those were made after the crime due to nosy people or if they’ve always kind of been there.

Would be fantastic to get some input from a local regarding the obscurity vs popularity of this particular area.

Edit: I mean the crime scene area not the trails.

 

[IceIce9]

Ditto for the same reasons you stated except I’d add - It would actually be easier to get to the scene from the cemetery (no creek crossing needed). It’s a straight shot “down a hill”.

Some reports make it seem desolate, but RL stated his kids used to play there so it was an area that at least some people were recreationally familiar with. In a couple of videos I’ve seen you can actually see paths, but I’m not sure if those were made after the crime due to nosy people or if they’ve always kind of been there.

Would be fantastic to get some input from a local regarding the obscurity vs popularity of this particular area.

The MHB and trails were featured on the official Delphi town website as a place of interest for visitors, and you can link to a trail map and obtain directions under the “Recreation” category.

City of Delphi - Biking & Hiking Trails

Also the MHB has been featured in articles and websites for bridge enthusiasts. They travel to photograph and walk historic bridges.

 

[Cutiekitty]

The MHB and trails were featured on the official Delphi town website as a place of interest for visitors, and you can link to a trail map and obtain directions under the “Recreation” category.

City of Delphi - Biking & Hiking Trails

Also the MHB has been featured in articles and websites for bridge enthusiasts. They travel to photograph and walk historic bridges.

I meant the crime scene area. I was kind of vague - sorry!

 

[IceIce9]

I meant the crime scene area. I was kind of vague - sorry!

Well the crime scene area is near Deer Creek, and Deer Creek is featured on paddling/Canoeing/Kayaking websites as a 23-mile navigable waterway. They always mention the MHB as one of the attractions for paddling Deer Creek.

Paddlers will pull out alongside rivers and creeks for picnics, fishing, etc. So it is reasonable to assume that others would be aware of the area.

I used to belong to a canoe club in Illinois and I know that it is a popular site for paddling.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Well, anyone that knows me in FB groups and here, Knows that I am obsessed with the cemetery angle. I dont know why or how, but I feel it is an important area regarding this case. I went there, I parked there, I took pics, and even being there, it made my feeling even stronger. The cemetery has something to do with this case, somehow. JMO

Agree. The proximity to the murder scene is not coincidence,IMO.
As a long shot, it may be worthwhile to determine who was buried there within the preceding 24 months.
(If it is still “accepting residents”)

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[missmargot]

Yes, I believe it is highly probable that he has killed before. His ability to control two girls, murder them and escape speaks to experience; an escalation of his acts. The risk likely is part of the thrill for him.

The profile LE has given us lines up with the profile of an SK as well with regard to race, age range, and familiarity with the kill zone.

I have no doubt in his mind we will discover he is responsible for other murders with a similar signature, but this is...

Amateur opinion and speculation

I absolutely agree with your amateur opinion and speculation. My own opinion is that a lot of the detail around the deaths that haven’t been released will point to that too when they are eventually revealed.

 

[Jax49]

I have always wondered about that comment too.

But how could he tell it was girls clothing in the creek from 75 yards away? That distance is 3/4 of a football field. If he saw something in the water from a distance of 75 yards it would be impossible to tell if it was girls clothing, women’s clothing, men’s clothing, or T-shirts and towels from someone who went swimming.

I walk trails often, and it is common to see shirts, towels, etc.at the edge of the water or in the water. Just yesterday I saw 3 hat and a couple of shirts.

I've always thought he could see at that distance because he was using a camera. Also, female undergarments (bras specifically) would be recognizable. jhmo

Plus, we have verification in the scanner thread as to what LE collected from the creek (can't be discussed here).

ETA Link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-10#post-13299892

 

[Cutiekitty]

Well the crime scene area is near Deer Creek, and Deer Creek is featured on paddling/Canoeing/Kayaking websites as a 23-mile navigable waterway. They always mention the MHB as one of the attractions for paddling Deer Creek.

Paddlers will pull out alongside rivers and creeks for picnics, fishing, etc. So it is reasonable to assume that others would be aware of the area.

I used to belong to a canoe club in Illinois and I know that it is a popular site for paddling.

So, paddling enthusiasts would know about the creek and might be familiar with the crime scene area. Wonder how many locals are aware of the specific crime scene area.

When I was a kid there was a patch of woods in our neighborhood we would play in that was somewhat similar to MHB. It wasn’t a state maintained trail or even an official one. It was just a patch of woods privately owned that people cut through or hung out in. It’s all been cut down and they built a bunch of ugly houses with no yards - made me sad.

There was a cut through trail that everyone, including parents, knew about that connected two neighborhoods. There was also a hang out spot off the trail that the all of the kids knew about. It was really just a huge oak tree that you could climb, but everyone from the two neighborhoods went there to hang.

There was another patch of woods that was popular with us kids until a couple of water moccasin incidents made is less than fun.

I’m wondering if the crime scene location is similar to the good hang out spot of my youth.

 

[tresir2012]

Looks like that game was on Saturday and played in Winamac.

Central Noble ends Delphi girls' regional run

Sorry about that, my mistake on the date. So would all coaches and staff be off on that snow day for the 13th Feb, as there were no sports scheduled, or they would still have to report for work?

 

[cody22]

I have always wondered about that comment too.

But how could he tell it was girls clothing in the creek from 75 yards away? That distance is 3/4 of a football field. If he saw something in the water from a distance of 75 yards it would be impossible to tell if it was girls clothing, women’s clothing, men’s clothing, or T-shirts and towels from someone who went swimming.

I walk trails often, and it is common to see shirts, towels, etc.at the edge of the water or in the water. Just yesterday I saw 3 hat and a couple of shirts.

Zoom camera lens make them look like you are on top of them ?....moo

 

[rosesfromangels]

Zoom camera lens make them look like you are on top of them ?....moo

If one of the girls was wearing pink, or girly cartoon-ish underwear like Hello Kitty, or he saw a bra, that would perhaps explain his conclusion.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[tresir2012]

Water Trails in Indiana

this link should take you to the water trails section. Scroll down to find Deer Creek info with an account, a map and some photographs.

 

[tresir2012]

If one of the girls was wearing pink, or girly cartoon-ish underwear like Hello Kitty, or he saw a bra, that would perhaps explain his conclusion.

Amateur opinion and speculation

What the girls were wearing is listed on the ISP poster IIRC

 

[Jax49]

Sorry about that, my mistake on the date. So would all coaches and staff be off on that snow day for the 13th Feb, as there were no sports scheduled, or they would still have to report for work?

I don't know. Originally I thought they were off also, but last time we discussed the issue another poster was sure they were scheduled to work. moo

ETA: I was thinking of all school staff, not just sports related.

 

[PaulaDC]

I have always wondered about that comment too.

But how could he tell it was girls clothing in the creek from 75 yards away? That distance is 3/4 of a football field. If he saw something in the water from a distance of 75 yards it would be impossible to tell if it was girls clothing, women’s clothing, men’s clothing, or T-shirts and towels from someone who went swimming.

I walk trails often, and it is common to see shirts, towels, etc.at the edge of the water or in the water. Just yesterday I saw 3 hat and a couple of shirts.

I assume as he is a cameraman that he has zoom lenses.

 

[HockeyMom330]

I lean towards this being his first time, but I'm admittedly not well-versed in serial killers. I guess I lean that way because they think he's local, yet no other local crimes prior to these murders stand out as a connection, and because the girls were found so soon after they were murdered, and the risks involved in committing the crime in a relatively public place, and within a fairly short time frame.

It's not my solid stance. It's fluid. In part because I don't know if murder was even the initial motive, or an outcome of something going wrong.

BBM

I agree with you in leaning towards this being BG's first time, and think you made a good point about not knowing his initial motive. This may have been a botched rape or abduction. However I think we need to be cautious in assuming he is not a serial killer simply because there are no other local similar crimes to connect to. Consider the case of John Gardner as an example. He admitted to murdering Amber Dubois and Chelsea King in California. His crimes were committed in different (but geographically close) towns. Amber, a younger teenager, was abducted in the early morning hours in a residental neighbourhood on her way to school. Chelsea, an older teenager, was attacked in the early evening hours while jogging on a nature trail in a park. A vehicle was used in Amber's abduction but not with Chelsea. Both girls were raped, but Amber was stabbed and Chelsea was strangled. Amber's body was left quite a distance from the place of her abduction while Chelsea was left in the same park.
These crimes are so different in MO that one might not initially link them to the same suspect.

Point to take away is that not all serial killers have a 'signature' or follow the same pattern with every murder. If BG is younger (18-25) I would guess that this was his first time killing. If he is older (25-40) I might lean towards him having killed before...maybe just with two victims at the same time, and maybe in a different way or different place. For all we know BG may have only recently moved to the Delphi/surrounding area in the past 5 years. He could have killed in a different state or country.

 

[rosesfromangels]

What the girls were wearing is listed on the ISP poster IIRC

Yes, but I wouldn’t think they got down to underware level of detail?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[BradB]

A lot of stuff doesnt add up to me and it might never. I battle back and forth about what actually motivated this guy to murder. I also battle to come to grips with the fact some predator was just waiting for a girl or two or woman to arrive at a public place like that especially that time of year.

It leaves to me the thought he had to have some knowledge they would be there. Either knew them or knew of them.