Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[BNA]

I just gotta ask...

What's with the constant MOO/JMO/Speculation and Opinion tags?

Seems....idk...weird and unnecessary. I've never seen a board where it this was a thing. And some times their use doesnt even make sense. ‍

It is our way.

 

[Rotten apple]

I just gotta ask...

What's with the constant MOO/JMO/Speculation and Opinion tags?

Seems....idk...weird and unnecessary. I've never seen a board where it this was a thing. And some times their use doesnt even make sense. ‍

Because anything that is posted as fact needs to have a link to a credible resource to back it up- so when just offering our own personal theories it must be stated as such so that people aren’t taking it as fact. Anything posted with those abbreviations tagged to it is simply speculation, not to be taken as fact. Keeps the board from becoming filled with posts either asking for sources or just an all out show

 

[JnRyan]

He had to have been doing some practice runs on that bridge before the day he attacked the girls. He knew it well. I bet people saw him on that bridge the days leading up to the attack. Lone guy, odd looking, coat stuffed.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Yes. He either did that or he knew it from a decade or so ago when he lived nearby. But either way if he wasn't familiar with the trail and performed recon trips OR he lived there before and had to visit the trail in advance to see how much it changed someone had to have seen him prior to that day. We don't know what is in the tips, but I still wonder why LE says he is "hiding in plain sight".

 

[mtnlites]

Re: the stuff of nightmares quote

I have always taken this to simply mean that the audio of hearing the girls' chitchat, and later possible screams, is chilling considering their impending murders. And then their bodies...
I also don't think that the girls' bodies had to be "posed" or in any unique posistion to be memorable or awful.

There are members of LE who, in their careers, have NEVER worked a child's murder-much less a double one. I have a cousin who works LE in that area and A/L's murders were his first in a 15 year career. The last child murder in my small town happened 25 years ago.

IMO there is nothing more nightmarish than a murdered child. My kid wasn't murdered, but he died suddenly and unexpectedly. No illness. The paramedics,nurses, coroner,and police ALL cried. Now, 10 years later,I still run into those folks and I've been told more than once that they've had nightmares about what happened and what they saw.

A body after being exposed for 24 hours is not a pretty sight. My son was beautiful. By the time his body was transferred to the state ME, however, he was blue and purple and splotchy with blood and fluid leaking. I sat next to him, alone, for 3 hours waiting for our coroner to be radioed in from off the mountain. During that time I sat there with a paper towel, blotting his nose and mouth. In death, his body was bloated, making him nearly unrecognizable.

"Nightmare"? Oh yes. Even hardened detectives can still be affected by the deaths, especially the murders, of children.

 

[CSIDreamer]

It is our way.

And we do it well. JMO.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Re: the stuff of nightmares quote

I have always taken this to simply mean that the audio of hearing the girls' chitchat, and later possible screams, is chilling considering their impending murders. And then their bodies...
I also don't think that the girls' bodies had to be "posed" or in any unique posistion to be memorable or awful.

There are members of LE who, in their careers, have NEVER worked a child's murder-much less a double one. I have a cousin who works LE in that area and A/L's murders were his first in a 15 year career. The last child murder in my small town happened 25 years ago.

IMO there is nothing more nightmarish than a murdered child. My kid wasn't murdered, but he died suddenly and unexpectedly. No illness. The paramedics,nurses, coroner,and police ALL cried. Now, 10 years later,I still run into those folks and I've been told more than once that they've had nightmares about what happened and what they saw.

A body after being exposed for 24 hours is not a pretty sight. My son was beautiful. By the time his body was transferred to the state ME, however, he was blue and purple and splotchy with blood and fluid leaking. I sat next to him, alone, for 3 hours waiting for our coroner to be radioed in from off the mountain. During that time I sat there with a paper towel, blotting his nose and mouth. In death, his body was bloated, making him nearly unrecognizable.

"Nightmare"? Oh yes. Even hardened detectives can still be affected by the deaths, especially the murders, of children.

You are one of the strong ones I referred to earlier. You have all the respect I can muster, as a complete stranger, for what you endured.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I've never considered another killing area and where the girls were found as a drop site. There was never any activity to suggest two crime scenes. JMO.

 

[mtnlites]

You are one of the strong ones I referred to earlier. You have all the respect I can muster, as a complete stranger, for what you endured.

Thanks. The aniversary is creeping up on us and I always think more about it at this time of the year. I don't presume to know how these families feel, but one of the worst things about losing a chiild is that you have to keep on living without them and don't just drop over dead yourself. That the world keeps spinning and people move on feels cruel. I think that is why it's good to keep the convo going-so that people remember and don't just let the crime fade away.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I've never considered another killing area and where the girls were found as a drop site. There was never any activity to suggest two crime scenes. JMO.

Then he must have gagged them because the sound would have carried, and surely someone would have heard it? There were other hikers that day? Confusing.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

Sorry about my last post. I must have been mistaken about what I heard and where. It happens, more often than I'd care to admit.

 

[Mind your biscuits]

I just gotta ask...

What's with the constant MOO/JMO/Speculation and Opinion tags?

Seems....idk...weird and unnecessary. I've never seen a board where it this was a thing. And some times their use doesnt even make sense. ‍

I stick Moo on many of my posts, saves people barking 'quote please ' When six people in a row ask for a quote you will know what we mean!

 

[ACE422]

Thank you. I can see that as well. Regardless of whether they went willingly or not from the start, I could see that being called “criminal activity” if he was luring them. But obviously LE knows one way or the other thanks to the audio recording. Have they said that the audio follows directly from the end of the video or could it have been a bit later? Wouldn’t it take 20-30 minutes to walk from the bridge to the crime scene?

I’d put greater odds on weapons and/or threats being used from the start. Just trying to think about other scenarios. Reminds me of those Dateline shows where they’d show how easily kids can be lured away, even in groups, with various tricks. These girls seem too old to fall for the puppy or candy, but maybe something like seeing/riding horses or a secret lookout point or something.

If someone was an animal lover and a stranger asked for help with an injured dog “down the hill,” most animal loving people would go, IMO, regardless of age, as long as it was physically possible for them and their “radar” wasn’t going off.

I also do not rule out the possibility of a weapon or threatening one girl’s safety to help control the other girl.
MOO

 

[ACE422]

If you’ve seen or read The Green Mile, there is a horrifying and haunting scene where two little girls are abducted & it is their love for each other that the murderer uses to lure them away quietly. I think something similar happened that day and it makes my heart ache. MOO

“they

If you’ve seen or read The Green Mile, there is a horrifying and haunting scene where two little girls are abducted & it is their love for each other that the murderer uses to lure them away quietly. I think something similar happened that day and it makes my heart ache. MOO

“He killed them with their love.” This scene from the Green Mile has replayed itself over and over in my mind while thinking of Libby and Abby. I suspect the same type of manipulation was used by the killer to gain control of them.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Then he must have gagged them because the sound would have carried, and surely someone would have heard it? There were other hikers that day? Confusing.

Amateur opinion and speculation

My complete speculation is they were shackled with handcuffs (or zip ties) and duct tape on their mouths.

 

[ACE422]

Re: the stuff of nightmares quote

I have always taken this to simply mean that the audio of hearing the girls' chitchat, and later possible screams, is chilling considering their impending murders. And then their bodies...
I also don't think that the girls' bodies had to be "posed" or in any unique posistion to be memorable or awful.

There are members of LE who, in their careers, have NEVER worked a child's murder-much less a double one. I have a cousin who works LE in that area and A/L's murders were his first in a 15 year career. The last child murder in my small town happened 25 years ago.

IMO there is nothing more nightmarish than a murdered child. My kid wasn't murdered, but he died suddenly and unexpectedly. No illness. The paramedics,nurses, coroner,and police ALL cried. Now, 10 years later,I still run into those folks and I've been told more than once that they've had nightmares about what happened and what they saw.

A body after being exposed for 24 hours is not a pretty sight. My son was beautiful. By the time his body was transferred to the state ME, however, he was blue and purple and splotchy with blood and fluid leaking. I sat next to him, alone, for 3 hours waiting for our coroner to be radioed in from off the mountain. During that time I sat there with a paper towel, blotting his nose and mouth. In death, his body was bloated, making him nearly unrecognizable.

"Nightmare"? Oh yes. Even hardened detectives can still be affected by the deaths, especially the murders, of children.

I am so sorry you had to experience this I can’t imagine how devastating this would be.

 

[CelticIre]

My complete speculation is they were shackled with handcuffs (or zip ties) and duct tape on their mouths.

He could have indeed gagged them with tape or cloth or some such material. But I think he could also have simply kept them quiet out of sheer terror and fear for each other's lives and safety. I've heard stories from people who have told me they were so abjectly frightened in certain situations that they couldn't even make a sound; the fear was absolutely paralyzing.

I don't know the acoustic dynamics of that area, but it may be conceivable that even if they had screamed or shouted, the creek might have been loud enough to muffle the sounds, or they were far enough away that the woods absorbed the sounds.

At any rate, to my knowledge no one has reported sounds of screaming or distress that day. The only unusual "sound" I can recall being mentioned was of a couple arguing somewhere beneath the bridge.

 

[moonlessnight]

Patty has stated that he thinks about the girls' last 30 min of life when he gets up in the AM. 30 min is a short time, but it is not instantaneous and it does allow for a certain amount of activity. I think when LE talks about this crime happening in minutes, it's less than an hour but it's not 10 minutes.

 

[watcher9]

Carter's quote in this interview leads me to believe that there may be audio and/or video of the crime taking place, but maybe they want to keep this hand close to their vest.

Quoted below is bbm.

"The recording was longer than what has been released. Police won't release anymore to protect the integrity of the investigation, but they've seen the video and likely won't be able to stop thinking about it."

"Imagine what that must be like, it's generally and very likely will be one of the last things these ladies and gentleman see for the rest of their lives before they go to sleep," said Carter."

Delphi teen records suspect before her death; police hope it leads to arrest

I cannot begin to fathom what they (LE, FBI, D.A.) have seen and heard on that recording.

My heart breaks at the thought of Abby and Libby's last hour(s) every day when I think of them.

This next quote below always hits me emotionally when I read it. I get tears every single time.

"She did it. She did it, and one day I'm going to thank her," said Carter

There is such a dedicated team trying so hard to find and arrest this monster.

I hope his days of freedom are coming to an end.

JMO

I think Carter sometimes talked disjointedly in his interview and at his press conferences.
I don't think Carter meant he was only talking about the video recording part from the phone like he said.

If Libby was able to hide the phone from view as is suspected, the VIDEO portion would have to be from when she captured BG on the bridge until just before he got close enough to utter "down the hill." It may have shown a weapon and/or Abby being grabbed but by then I think Libby would have hidden the phone to keep BG from seeing it and taking it from her. I guess LE could always remember this part as terrifying, knowing what was about to happen.

Carter could have meant the AUDIO portion of the recording was what was horrendous for LE to listen to since we assume after Libby hid the phone, it continued recording maybe up to the crime itself. LE could have heard the panic in one or both of the girls' voices as they fought for their lives.

Or, because Carter said "see", he could have meant what LE would remember and SEE for the rest of their lives was the visual sighting of the girls at the crime scene.

JMO

 

[susiQ]

Yes to do a proper job would be an impossibility. An attempt maybe, by a deranged person.

I hate saying this, but if you cut into the carotid artery and your heart is pumping at an accelerated rate due to fear and anxiety, it really doesn't take that long.

 

[Michigan]

I listened to a podcast on the case with my husband today. He had never heard of the case before so it was interesting to get his take with fresh eyes.

In his opinion, he felt it must have been an arranged meeting. It was a day that normally would have been a school day and time was before school let out. I’m not aware of how popular this area was for teens. But if this guy was out to SA girls ( IMO I believe this was a sexually motivated crime) this wasn’t the time of place to be randomly trolling for victims. To my husband it seemed like a pre arranged meeting (perhaps catfished).

If that were the case though I would have thought there would be a digital footprint of previous communications.

This crime seems planned especially given that BG would need supplies like a weapon and to be in the mindframe to do something like this. Does someone ever snap and randomly commit something like this unplanned with two victims? If it was planned, but victims were random, it doesn’t seem to make sense that this is where he would go to find them.

MOO