Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[rosesfromangels]

Dbm

I've been doing a lot of that today too. : )

 

[sunshineray]

I wonder how the witness times are so exact around the time of the murder. Like how did FSG know it was exactly 2:52? Did he have some sort of phone record, or was this somebody else's estimate?

Either way, if the bridge video was around 2:30, BG could have recrossed and been in the woods by 2:40 at the latest, IMO. Except we don't even know for certain that the 2:30 time is correct. We also don't know when the "couple arguing" got there, or who they were. I'm with @sunshineray, I'd like to know more about them.

It's possible that this person the witnesses saw wasn't even BG (maybe he was the basis for OBG sketch). IMO, it's possible BG was already off the trail and in the woods before anyone else got to the bridge. JMO

I've always thought he could have laid low in the woods waiting for some hikers to walk away from the area he needed to escape through. I know most think he would leave as quickly as possible and that does make perfect sense unless he was trying to get to his vehicle and was thwarted by family arrive so soon to search.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Good point.

Well, to get something off MY chest (following blueberry’s lead ), it’s always bothered me that LE made that comment about how all the online reenactments are wrong. Kind of demoralizing. I’m not sure what LE wants us to do with that information. They say nothing more than that our theories are wrong.

It’s just not very motivating to be told all the public theories are wrong- but be given no lead in the right direction. But it does jive with my feeling that something is off in this whole case. LE does not actually appear to want the public’s help except for something very very specific. Which only a specific person or persons will know. Otherwise, they’d give us more to direct our incorrect theories in the right direction. And they aren’t. So they truly do not care if our theories are wrong. Bc they only want some certain type of other information.

IMO they have all sorts of information they aren’t sharing. Which hopefully is a good thing in the end. Still bugs me that they publicly criticize the online theories but give no further information. Not necessary IMO- they could just say nothing.

Bbm - this is what I think is going on and I’m totally ok with it.

I think they commented because whatever is wrong in the YouTube videos might be causing issues in the investigation. I think some people view the videos as fact when they are really only speculation. Maybe one of those people is who LE wants help from.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I would wager a bet that nobody on here is 100% correct in the end. I've posted many ideas that got dismissed. A lot of us have. But no theory should be wholly dismissed when we don't know the actual truth of what happened.

What I appreciate most about others are their willingness to toss around ideas. And I'd much rather do the back-and-forth with somebody open to new ideas (like you) than somebody whose mind is made up. My main goal for myself is not to pick out a POI and force what little information we have to fit him. My view is fluid.

Same here.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't know where that comes from, actually. Good question.

I found this from poster MizStery, scroll to about the middle of the page.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #96

 

[Cutiekitty]

I've been doing a lot of that today too. : )

Some days I just can’t quite articulate my thoughts.

 

[TL4S]

I've always thought he could have laid low in the woods waiting for some hikers to walk away from the area he needed to escape through. I know most think he would leave as quickly as possible and that does make perfect sense unless he was trying to get to his vehicle and was thwarted by family arrive so soon to search.

Agreed.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I remember in the interview when they said this about the reenactments, they also were saying (paraphrasing) that they're glad to see that the public doesn't have all the facts and the case is still intact. I believe they've even held back information from the family in order to prevent accidental or purposeful leaks. JMO

They’ve absolutely held back info as they should.

 

[TL4S]

I found this from poster MizStery, scroll to about the middle of the page.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #96

I really want to believe these witness statements, and I really, really want the timeline to be tight so we have something to work with, but these sources just don't convince me. I believe the 2:30 time for the video more than anything because it was on the FBI billboard, but even that's gone now. But MP said he thinks about the girls' last 30 minutes, and LE said they died within 'minutes' of the video, so I'm fairly convinced that the girls were probably gone by 3pm and BG was either out of, or on his way out of the park, or hiding until he had an open window for escape.

I've never been on the trail and bridge, so I can't say, but for a man on a mission, I really don't think it would have taken him more than 10 or 15 minutes to recross the bridge and walk the woods to cut off the girls near the CS. I could be WAY off. Going by that timeframe, though, if he killed them very quickly and got his butt back to the trail, I suppose it's possible for FSG to see him at 2:52.

 

[moonlessnight]

But we don't know who FSG saw at 2:52 - was it the guy who looked like OBG, or the YBG? If it was OBG, then FSG didn't see the killer, apparently. YBG could still have been in the woods, or have left via the cemetery and never walked back along the trail.

I really want to believe these witness statements, and I really, really want the timeline to be tight so we have something to work with, but these sources just don't convince me. I believe the 2:30 time for the video more than anything because it was on the FBI billboard, but even that's gone now. But MP said he thinks about the girls' last 30 minutes, and LE said they died within 'minutes' of the video, so I'm fairly convinced that the girls were probably gone by 3pm and BG was either out of, or on his way out of the park, or hiding until he had an open window for escape.

I've never been on the trail and bridge, so I can't say, but for a man on a mission, I really don't think it would have taken him more than 10 or 15 minutes to recross the bridge and walk the woods to cut off the girls near the CS. I could be WAY off. Going by that timeframe, though, if he killed them very quickly and got his butt back to the trail, I suppose it's possible for FSG to see him at 2:52.

 

[TL4S]

But we don't know who FSG saw at 2:52 - was it the guy who looked like OBG, or the YBG? If it was OBG, then FSG didn't see the killer, apparently. YBG could still have been in the woods, or have left via the cemetery and never walked back along the trail.

That's right, which is yet another reason I don't put much stock in the witness statements for now.

 

[sunshineray]

That's right, which is yet another reason I don't put much stock in the witness statements for now.

I just think it's interesting that CE and FSG both supposedly saw or heard people under the bridge right at the time of the murders in CE's case ( her photo timestamps help) or FSG right after murders and right before DG got to the trails. The other male witness, BH, while I'm not sure exactly what area he was at, he saw something he thought police should know.

 

[mtnlites]

Good point.

Well, to get something off MY chest (following blueberry’s lead ), it’s always bothered me that LE made that comment about how all the online reenactments are wrong. Kind of demoralizing. I’m not sure what LE wants us to do with that information. They say nothing more than that our theories are wrong.

It’s just not very motivating to be told all the public theories are wrong- but be given no lead in the right direction. But it does jive with my feeling that something is off in this whole case. LE does not actually appear to want the public’s help except for something very very specific. Which only a specific person or persons will know. Otherwise, they’d give us more to direct our incorrect theories in the right direction. And they aren’t. So they truly do not care if our theories are wrong. Bc they only want some certain type of other information.

BBM SBM

Honestly, I think that is part of the point-I don't think they want us to do anything with that information. I think they want us to share the sketches and keep the crime on people's minds, but that's it. They have asked for help identifying the video, audio, and sketch, but that's all they've asked for.

 

[Boxer]

Speaking of the "female witness", if the girls weren’t targeted, why not choose her as his victim? She was alone and it would seemingly be easier than taking on two girls, would it not? Why them and not her?

She might have had a dog, and/or looked like she was suspicious already and would fight back. Maybe she had her phone in her hand.

 

[mtnlites]

I always insert quotes wrong but puppyraiser was asking about the autopsy report for PE. I have a more general question though. Couldn't air be forced up from the diaphragm into the throat and mouth of a body that is in an autopsy and be used with voice recognition technology to find a match? Or of this person was recorded during a standoff talking? So that it could be matched to the vocal recording of BG?

Voice recognition is based on tone, dialect, syntax, etc. If air came up out of a dead's person throat then wouldn't it just be...air? Like emitting gas.

 

[mtnlites]

She might have had a dog, and/or looked like she was suspicious already and would fight back. Maybe she had her phone in her hand.

Or she was within too close proximity to someone else. Or maybe he simply didn't see her.

 

[CelticIre]

I always insert quotes wrong but puppyraiser was asking about the autopsy report for PE. I have a more general question though. Couldn't air be forced up from the diaphragm into the throat and mouth of a body that is in an autopsy and be used with voice recognition technology to find a match? Or of this person was recorded during a standoff talking? So that it could be matched to the vocal recording of BG?

It would just be the emission of air and gas out of the lungs, not sound from the vocal cords.

Respectfully, this is akin to the nineteenth-century notion that a photograph taken of a murder victim's eyes could record the last thing he or she saw, i.e., his or her murderer.

They did this at the Mary Kelly crime scene in Whitechapel -- which by the way, was the first time that crime scene photography had been employed in modern forensics -- in the vain hope that perhaps her pupae might have recorded an image of her killer. Of course, that was not the case.

 

[Torch Carrier]

It's approx 800 feet, 270 yards. He could have taken them one at a time to the creek edge and let the current help him. Or one dead/or injured while the other walked. I wouldn't suggest something I thought was impossible. They ended up across the other side of the creek dead and he was near Freedom bridge within 17 minutes of the 2.30 video. That's the reality that has to fit. Going back across the bridge 300 yards with two girls then down the east shore 300yds then back to Freedom bridge approx 800 yards is not possible in 17 minutes. MOO.

Tresir, I'm confused as to WHERE FSG saw BG at 2:47 and how do we know it was BG that he saw? Can you shed more light on this?

 

[Moreack]

Tresir, I'm confused as to WHERE FSG saw BG at 2:47 and how do we know it was BG that he saw? Can you shed more light on this?

 

[Trocroc9]

We don’t know that he didn’t. For all we know they have plenty of evidence, but it hasn’t matched (thus far) with anyone who has a record, or who has prints on file.

Amateur opinion and speculation

One thing we know is that they have footprints. I’ve seen cases solved by shoe size and type so at least there is that.
2 bodies found positively ID'd as missing teens