Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[Charlot123]

MOO no evidence to tie to a specific person in their records or of the many they have asked for DNA samples from.

MOO If they have DNA it is mDNA -
female line, from a family not doing GED.com for their female line nor having any any recent female convicted of a felony.

You can figure out a person’s mitoDNA. Example: my dad’s paternal GM that is very long dead. She had several daughters and one son. My PGF. One of the daughters got married and had three kids, a daughter and two sons. I asked that daughter for her DNA, to figure out my paternal GGM’s mitogroup. (And my father’s father had the same group, too).

It is direct maternal line. So if we have mito DNA from the crime place and it is different from that of LG and AW, and we suspect someone of being the perp, we could check mito DNA from anyone on his direct maternal line. (People he may not ever know). As long as mitoDNA is not super prevalent in that area or has private mutations, and as long as the person is the bio child of his mom, it is a good way, but it may not fly in court.

Now, if we have zero index of suspicion, it becomes hard to sort things out.

 

[155etta]

I really want to believe these witness statements, and I really, really want the timeline to be tight so we have something to work with, but these sources just don't convince me. I believe the 2:30 time for the video more than anything because it was on the FBI billboard, but even that's gone now. But MP said he thinks about the girls' last 30 minutes, and LE said they died within 'minutes' of the video, so I'm fairly convinced that the girls were probably gone by 3pm and BG was either out of, or on his way out of the park, or hiding until he had an open window for escape.

I've never been on the trail and bridge, so I can't say, but for a man on a mission, I really don't think it would have taken him more than 10 or 15 minutes to recross the bridge and walk the woods to cut off the girls near the CS. I could be WAY off. Going by that timeframe, though, if he killed them very quickly and got his butt back to the trail, I suppose it's possible for FSG to see him at 2:52.

I'm skeptical that he left via the trail. Why would he? If I'd just done what he did, I would be getting out of there another way. For that matter, I would also have come in another way and avoided the trails and other people (witnesses) altogether.

 

[Trocroc9]

I'm skeptical that he left via the trail. Why would he? If I'd just done what he did, I would be getting out of there another way. For that matter, I would also have come in another way and avoided the trails and other people (witnesses) altogether.

I agree I think he would take the road less travelled after committing this horrific crime. Stay close to the woods and get to his vehicle and get out. I just can’t imagine he would put himself in others view to be able to identify him. I don’t think he would want any type of personal contact.

 

[MJPeony]

BBM SBM

Honestly, I think that is part of the point-I don't think they want us to do anything with that information. I think they want us to share the sketches and keep the crime on people's minds, but that's it. They have asked for help identifying the video, audio, and sketch, but that's all they've asked for.

I think you’re right. And yet it’s still frustrating. The “we want the public’s help, we don’t really want the public’s help” can be demoralizing at times when I think about the genuine-hearted folks that have put so much thought into this crime trying to help. It’s hard for LE to have it both ways- big public pressers asking for tips, but then not wanting us to do anything with certain information and just saying “you’re wrong”. A challenging request I think. And I think they are seeing just how challenging given 2 and 1/2 yrs in with no arrest.

But of course what matters is not how I, Joe Public (or Josie Public as it were), feel about anything. What matters is that LE has the resources they need to solve this horrible crime. But how we all wish we could help.

MOO

 

[Trocroc9]

I just think it's interesting that CE and FSG both supposedly saw or heard people under the bridge right at the time of the murders in CE's case ( her photo timestamps help) or FSG right after murders and right before DG got to the trails. The other male witness, BH, while I'm not sure exactly what area he was at, he saw something he thought police should know.

Who is this other male witness you are referring to BH?

 

[mtnlites]

I think you’re right. And yet it’s still frustrating. The “we want the public’s help, we don’t really want the public’s help” can be demoralizing at times when I think about the genuine-hearted folks that have put so much thought into this crime trying to help. It’s hard for LE to have it both ways- big public pressers asking for tips, but then not wanting us to do anything with certain information and just saying “you’re wrong”. A challenging request I think. And I think they are seeing just how challenging given 2 and 1/2 yrs in with no arrest.

But of course what matters is not how I, Joe Public (or Josie Public as it were), feel about anything. What matters is that LE has the resources they need to solve this horrible crime. But how we all wish we could help.

MOO

It's a "we want the public's help, but only in this very specific way" kind of challenge. Which, you know, I get but I also realize that it's frustrating.

 

[MJPeony]

I agree I think he would take the road less travelled after committing this horrific crime. Stay close to the woods and get to his vehicle and get out. I just can’t imagine he would put himself in others view to be able to identify him. I don’t think he would want any type of personal contact.

I tend to agree... Unless he’d come with others and returned to others? If someone is covering for him with an alibi, or if someone hasn’t put 2 and 2 together for some reason, BG could have been there that day with others and had no need to escape.

This scenario would account for LE suddenly suspecting someone who was “hiding in plain sight” and their “change in strategy.” Someone who was accounted for as being on the trails that day. Who was with someone(s) else and rejoined them on the trails after they supposedly were taking a bathroom break... or something like that. He could have changed clothes at some point/shed or added clothing.

That scenario not really adding up for me, but interests me nonetheless. Just thinking out loud. Some theory around him being out in the open with other(s) that day on the trails. Hmm. Will have to think about that theory.

 

[Boxer]

We did used to feel that way till LE said none of the reenactments got it right, which put us back at the beginning. I just read a heavy.com article that stated the SC was posted at 2 PM and a female witness stated she was at the bridge shortly after that but didn't see anyone except another couple under the bridge. (Was that the girls I wonder?) So she didn't seemingly see BG. She went over the bridge and took pictures so where were the girls then?
It is certainly very strange that nobody even saw them except apparently one other woman, who also saw BG.
All very strange IMO.

Can you give me that Heavy.com link? Thanks

 

[Trocroc9]

I tend to agree... Unless he’d come with others and returned to others? If someone is covering for him with an alibi, or if someone hasn’t put 2 and 2 together for some reason, BG could have been there that day with others and had no need to escape.

This scenario would account for LE suddenly suspecting someone who was “hiding in plain sight” and their “change in strategy.” Someone who was accounted for as being on the trails that day. Who was with someone(s) else and rejoined them on the trails after they supposedly were taking a bathroom break... or something like that. He could have changed clothes at some point/shed or added clothing.

That scenario not really adding up for me, but interests me nonetheless. Just thinking out loud. Some theory around him being out in the open with other(s) that day on the trails. Hmm. Will have to think about that theory.

Maybe he was a “witness”.

 

[Boxer]

The crime scene tape stopping before the creek has always bothered me. I've always believed (and still do) that they were killed where they were found, but the tape placement seems odd.

True, forensics did not tape down to the creek on the south side.
Forensics also didn't tape from CS down to the creek on the north side.
Possibly they just marked areas of evidence with a length of tape or flag to minimize any more disturbance to the area.

 

[Boxer]

I think you’re right. And yet it’s still frustrating. The “we want the public’s help, we don’t really want the public’s help” can be demoralizing at times when I think about the genuine-hearted folks that have put so much thought into this crime trying to help. It’s hard for LE to have it both ways- big public pressers asking for tips, but then not wanting us to do anything with certain information and just saying “you’re wrong”. A challenging request I think. And I think they are seeing just how challenging given 2 and 1/2 yrs in with no arrest.

But of course what matters is not how I, Joe Public (or Josie Public as it were), feel about anything. What matters is that LE has the resources they need to solve this horrible crime. But how we all wish we could help.

MOO

MOO he was careful to say the re-enactments are "inaccurate," that means any detail not right and you have "inaccurate."

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

.

This scenario would account for LE suddenly suspecting someone who was “hiding in plain sight” and their “change in strategy.” Someone who was accounted for as being on the trails that day. Who was with someone(s) else and rejoined them on the trails after they supposedly were taking a bathroom break... or something like that. He could have changed clothes at some point/shed or added clothing.

I really don’t get too hung up on the phrase ‘hiding in plain sight’. Name any killer other then say the uni bomber that wasn’t hiding in plain sight. Unless the perp is held up in a cabin in the woods, he is likely going about his day to day normal routine.

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

She might have had a dog, and/or looked like she was suspicious already and would fight back. Maybe she had her phone in her hand.

Maybe the guy likes kids not aldults.

 

[tresir2012]

I just think it's interesting that CE and FSG both supposedly saw or heard people under the bridge right at the time of the murders in CE's case ( her photo timestamps help) or FSG right after murders and right before DG got to the trails. The other male witness, BH, while I'm not sure exactly what area he was at, he saw something he thought police should know.

We still don't know where the arguing "rumour" came from re the couple do we?

 

[tresir2012]

Tresir, I'm confused as to WHERE FSG saw BG at 2:47 and how do we know it was BG that he saw? Can you shed more light on this?

It probably should be 2.49 and is in the long timeline post I C/P from the media thread yesterday from the foreigner. Page 39 in the media thread if you want to find it quickly.

Same timeline says he was seen at FB at 3.02 also IIRC. Hence the 30 minutes recalled by MP every morning. It happened in less that 30 minutes.

 

[tresir2012]

You can figure out a person’s mitoDNA. Example: my dad’s paternal GM that is very long dead. She had several daughters and one son. My PGF. One of the daughters got married and had three kids, a daughter and two sons. I asked that daughter for her DNA, to figure out my paternal GGM’s mitogroup. (And my father’s father had the same group, too).

It is direct maternal line. So if we have mito DNA from the crime place and it is different from that of LG and AW, and we suspect someone of being the perp, we could check mito DNA from anyone on his direct maternal line. (People he may not ever know). As long as mitoDNA is not super prevalent in that area or has private mutations, and as long as the person is the bio child of his mom, it is a good way, but it may not fly in court.

Now, if we have zero index of suspicion, it becomes hard to sort things out.

TYVM for explaining how this works. This gives me hope they do have at least some DNA.

 

[tresir2012]

Who is this other male witness you are referring to BH?

I think it must be the eBay flyer/bullshorn bloke who was working in the area at the time across from the park.

Link here.

eBay seller packs Delphi murder suspect flyer in every package

It's a sunny June day in downtown Delphi, but a cold February one more than two years ago is on BH's mind.

"I was working right across from the place where it happened," H said.

He's talking about the murders of Libby German and Abby Williams.

In the days after the girls' bodies were discovered, H talked to Eyewitness News from the bridge where police believe the girls ran into their killer as they walked along the wooded trail.

(Witness name changed to initials)

 

[tresir2012]

Can you give me that Heavy.com link? Thanks

Sure, here it is.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

"The photo, which you can see above, was posted about 2 p.m. It was taken by Liberty German and shows Abigail Williams walking along the railroad bridge. Liberty posted it to her Snapchat account.

According to police and family members, the girls phones pinged in multiple locations but were shut off shortly after they were reported missing.

A woman who was at the bridge commented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” CME wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.”"

So the guy she saw could have been BG or FSG right? And the couple could have been the couple seen by FSG also. But neither CME or FSG saw or heard the girls.

(Witness name changed to initials)

 

[tresir2012]

I wonder how the witness times are so exact around the time of the murder. Like how did FSG know it was exactly 2:52? Did he have some sort of phone record, or was this somebody else's estimate?

Either way, if the bridge video was around 2:30, BG could have recrossed and been in the woods by 2:40 at the latest, IMO. Except we don't even know for certain that the 2:30 time is correct. We also don't know when the "couple arguing" got there, or who they were. I'm with @sunshineray, I'd like to know more about them.

It's possible that this person the witnesses saw wasn't even BG (maybe he was the basis for OBG sketch). IMO, it's possible BG was already off the trail and in the woods before anyone else got to the bridge. JMO

If BG re crossed the bridge, that could be when CME saw him? However, LE have always said the criminal activity began straight after BG video (at 2.30) so he had to have taken the girls at that point off the south end of the bridge IMO. Unless, as others have suggested, the criminal activity was the stalking itself. So where CME saw him becomes very important I believe.

He is also seen at Freedom Bridge at 3.02 so he got from the bridge at 2.30 to FB 32 minutes later, having abducted, murdered and hidden two teen athletic girls in the interim, while someone is actually on the bridge taking photos, seeing and hearing none of what is happening there across the creek.

Something is up with this timeline IMO.

 

[TL4S]

If BG re crossed the bridge, that could be when CME saw him? However, LE have always said the criminal activity began straight after BG video (at 2.30) so he had to have taken the girls at that point off the south end of the bridge IMO. Unless, as others have suggested, the criminal activity was the stalking itself. So where CME saw him becomes very important I believe.

He is also seen at Freedom Bridge at 3.02 so he got from the bridge at 2.30 to FB 32 minutes later, having abducted, murdered and hidden two teen athletic girls in the interim, while someone is actually on the bridge taking photos, seeing and hearing none of what is happening there across the creek.

Something is up with this timeline IMO.

I agree, something is wrong. @Cutiekitty has pointed out in the past that the SC photo of Abby could have been taken prior to 2:07. And while the FBI billboard listed 2:30 as the last seen time for BG (from the video), that has since been removed with no explanation. ISP still describes the girls arriving at the trail around 1pm, while KG says she has phone record to prove it was 1:38.

We don't know if the man the witnesses saw was even BG, but regardless, it makes me think. Is it possible that the 2:30 'last seen' FBI billboard time didn't come from the bridge video, but actually from the very last bit of audio LE has? That might give another 15 (+/-) min. to work with. Maybe the girls died closer to 2:30 than 3?