Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #501
In some ways, this case reminds me of Shauna Howe's murder. Shauna was an 11 yo in a small, Pennsylvanian town who was abducted and murdered walking home after a Halloween party. It was a tiny town that didn't have a lot of crime and it rocked the population to the core. Basically everyone in town became a suspect. Talk about a Peyton Place-secrets came out about the townspeople that nobody thought would see the light of day. LE took DNA samples from over 100 people in town. They released as much info as they could, but they had to hold back a lot because they were afraid it would hurt the trial (if there ever was one). Townspeople got really upset with LE because they thought LE should've released more. LE made the same comments with that case that they do with this one: we have a lot of pieces and are just waiting for that ONE tip, he's probably local, be aware of what your kids are doing, we need the public's help in identifying this sketch, etc. All pretty standard things for them to say. Later, though, they also said that they thought they might have been onto something earlier in the investigation so they wanted to start over.

Despite their work, the case went cold. When they were FINALLY able to solve it, about 12 years later, it wound up being three men that they'd looked at in that first week after her murder. Those men had been excluded early on because the DNA didn't match Ted and Jim/Tim O'brien weren't tested because they were incarcerated at the time of the crime so they had an alibi. As it turned out, they'd bonded out earlier that day and NOBODY working the case had been aware of that. The DNA test was done on them and there was a match. Ted, the third man, was also convicted.

So, at the end of the day, the detectives had actually solved the case in the very beginning. They'd just made the mistake of not following through with the alibi. You hear someone's in jail, you look at the records and see that they were there, that's a pretty good alibi. They'd just never seen the part about them bonding out later that same day...People had also identified Ted from the sketch early on, but his DNA hadn't matched so he was excluded. It didn't match because he hadn't participated in the SA, but he WAS a big part in the abduction.

That's where I think LE may be at now. I think they were onto something in the beginning, but something happened to make the cross that guy off
. A strong alibi, no DNA match, etc. I think they had a pretty good idea of what happened early on, but that theory was shot when it didn't fit the evidence. Perhaps they need to look at that evidence and that person again.

This is what I think happened too. I also think LE does know who BG is and they are working on getting the evidence they need (forensic , circumstantial, witness statements, etc...) in order to secure a conviction.

I do think they have DNA, but BG is able to justify or explain why his DNA would be at the scene. I do not think there was a SA. I also don’t think SA was the motivating factor (Not sure what was the motivator, but I think it was anger). People have questioned why they’d continue taking DNA samples if they know who BG is...well, if they have foreign DNA I’d think they’d want to determine whose it is in the event of a trial. Why give the defense the opportunity to introduce reasonable doubt. ID all male DNA and determine where those people were and why their DNA would be at the scene. I think LE is just being thorough - dotting every I and crossing every T to make sure BG is convicted.

I think an individual(s) is providing an alibi and they are doing it knowingly. I felt like the PC was mostly directed at that person.

All JMO. This could change at anytime, but for now this is what I’m thinking.
 
  • #502
Why did Libby decided to take a video of BG and not a photo as she had of Abby? Was he doing or saying something?
 
  • #503
The high turn over probably has a lot to do with economic opportunities that present themselves once training has been received. State LE pays ok, but federal and private sector pays a whole lot better. JMO

Might have a little to do with burnout too. It would be rough looking at what those investigators have to look at all day every day.
I agree, somewhere, someone has to say, we can't keep paying so much and then not benefitting in the long run. I just think it's fundamentally wrong for LE to have to pay such a price tag to be tech capable in protecting children and finding the perpetrators of crimes against them. The costs are hindering LE too much in protecting and serving. That's just insane to me. We need to provide our protectors with the means to protect and the people's funds to do so shouldn't be subject to gouging for profit. I think it's gotten to that point. Make this training more affordable. AJMO
 
  • #504
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Just a short clip of the Monticello fundraiser held yesterday for the Memorial Park for Abby and Libby.

So many people out there who care so much for these girls. It has really brought that community together in so many ways, as much as it has torn them apart in many ways.

I still think of them every day...

Will we finally see an arrest on thread #110? Hoping for justice!

JMO
 
  • #505
In some ways, this case reminds me of Shauna Howe's murder. Shauna was an 11 yo in a small, Pennsylvanian town who was abducted and murdered walking home after a Halloween party. It was a tiny town that didn't have a lot of crime and it rocked the population to the core. Basically everyone in town became a suspect. Talk about a Peyton Place-secrets came out about the townspeople that nobody thought would see the light of day. LE took DNA samples from over 100 people in town. They released as much info as they could, but they had to hold back a lot because they were afraid it would hurt the trial (if there ever was one). Townspeople got really upset with LE because they thought LE should've released more. LE made the same comments with that case that they do with this one: we have a lot of pieces and are just waiting for that ONE tip, he's probably local, be aware of what your kids are doing, we need the public's help in identifying this sketch, etc. All pretty standard things for them to say. Later, though, they also said that they thought they might have been onto something earlier in the investigation so they wanted to start over.

Despite their work, the case went cold. When they were FINALLY able to solve it, about 12 years later, it wound up being three men that they'd looked at in that first week after her murder. Those men had been excluded early on because the DNA didn't match Ted and Jim/Tim O'brien weren't tested because they were incarcerated at the time of the crime so they had an alibi. As it turned out, they'd bonded out earlier that day and NOBODY working the case had been aware of that. The DNA test was done on them and there was a match. Ted, the third man, was also convicted.

So, at the end of the day, the detectives had actually solved the case in the very beginning. They'd just made the mistake of not following through with the alibi. You hear someone's in jail, you look at the records and see that they were there, that's a pretty good alibi. They'd just never seen the part about them bonding out later that same day...People had also identified Ted from the sketch early on, but his DNA hadn't matched so he was excluded. It didn't match because he hadn't participated in the SA, but he WAS a big part in the abduction.

That's where I think LE may be at now. I think they were onto something in the beginning, but something happened to make the cross that guy off. A strong alibi, no DNA match, etc. I think they had a pretty good idea of what happened early on, but that theory was shot when it didn't fit the evidence. Perhaps they need to look at that evidence and that person again.
Very interesting case. It sounds eerily like the Delphi one. Going back to the early days would definitely mean looking at close ties/associations with the families. It's all very disturbing to think about but I'm sure LE is doing their best. Praying they are successful very soon.
 
  • #506
Why did Libby decided to take a video of BG and not a photo as she had of Abby? Was he doing or saying something?
I know nobody else really agrees but when I zoomed in on his face, using the ISP site's video of BG, I swear he's talking to himself.
 
  • #507
I know nobody else really agrees but when I zoomed in on his face, using the ISP site's video of BG, I swear he's talking to himself.
Or the girls, or an accomplice.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
  • #508
In some ways, this case reminds me of Shauna Howe's murder. Shauna was an 11 yo in a small, Pennsylvanian town who was abducted and murdered walking home after a Halloween party. It was a tiny town that didn't have a lot of crime and it rocked the population to the core. Basically everyone in town became a suspect. Talk about a Peyton Place-secrets came out about the townspeople that nobody thought would see the light of day. LE took DNA samples from over 100 people in town. They released as much info as they could, but they had to hold back a lot because they were afraid it would hurt the trial (if there ever was one). Townspeople got really upset with LE because they thought LE should've released more. LE made the same comments with that case that they do with this one: we have a lot of pieces and are just waiting for that ONE tip, he's probably local, be aware of what your kids are doing, we need the public's help in identifying this sketch, etc. All pretty standard things for them to say. Later, though, they also said that they thought they might have been onto something earlier in the investigation so they wanted to start over.

Despite their work, the case went cold. When they were FINALLY able to solve it, about 12 years later, it wound up being three men that they'd looked at in that first week after her murder. Those men had been excluded early on because the DNA didn't match Ted and Jim/Tim O'brien weren't tested because they were incarcerated at the time of the crime so they had an alibi. As it turned out, they'd bonded out earlier that day and NOBODY working the case had been aware of that. The DNA test was done on them and there was a match. Ted, the third man, was also convicted.

So, at the end of the day, the detectives had actually solved the case in the very beginning. They'd just made the mistake of not following through with the alibi. You hear someone's in jail, you look at the records and see that they were there, that's a pretty good alibi. They'd just never seen the part about them bonding out later that same day...People had also identified Ted from the sketch early on, but his DNA hadn't matched so he was excluded. It didn't match because he hadn't participated in the SA, but he WAS a big part in the abduction.

That's where I think LE may be at now. I think they were onto something in the beginning, but something happened to make the cross that guy off. A strong alibi, no DNA match, etc. I think they had a pretty good idea of what happened early on, but that theory was shot when it didn't fit the evidence. Perhaps they need to look at that evidence and that person again.

Agree 100%!!!
A lot of “Cold” cases are actually “solved” within the first few weeks. However, law enforcement doesn’t realize they have found the correct perpetrator. You can look into several high profile cases: The Green River Killer, BTK, Golden State Killer... etc Law Enforcement HAD these guys on their radar but for one reason or another they were crossed off the list. This is one of the MAIN reasons I believe that after a certain amount of time it should be demanded that ALL cases like this be looked over from the very beginning with “a new set of fresh eyes” as they say. Bring in someone new that doesn’t know the case. Let them look it over. I bet these cases would be solved MUCH faster.

My own personal opinion of course.
 
  • #509
Agree 100%!!!
A lot of “Cold” cases are actually “solved” within the first few weeks. However, law enforcement doesn’t realize they have found the correct perpetrator. You can look into several high profile cases: The Green River Killer, BTK, Golden State Killer... etc Law Enforcement HAD these guys on their radar but for one reason or another they were crossed off the list. This is one of the MAIN reasons I believe that after a certain amount of time it should be demanded that ALL cases like this be looked over from the very beginning with “a new set of fresh eyes” as they say. Bring in someone new that doesn’t know the case. Let them look it over. I bet these cases would be solved MUCH faster.

My own personal opinion of course.
They have probably already had contact with the killer, or his family.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
  • #510
Why did Libby decided to take a video of BG and not a photo as she had of Abby? Was he doing or saying something?

This is the most interesting point that has been made on these Delphi threads for months.
 
  • #511
Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

I know this link has been posted in the past, but if it's accurate reporting, it answers a couple of my questions.

Starting at 1:40:

BBM
"Police tell me Libby recorded the killer's voice on her cell phone, telling the girls to go "down the hill." Investigators say she hit record after he approached them near the Monon High Bridge."

IMO, the bridge video was separate from the audio, not one single string of recording.

And "near the Monon High Bridge" can be interpreted differently, but my take is it was not immediately off the south end of the bridge. But that's JMO

Either way, that little girl is a superstar in my book.
 
Last edited:
  • #512
Why did Libby decided to take a video of BG and not a photo as she had of Abby? Was he doing or saying something?
If Libby was trying to be covert in capturing him on film, and had her arm down or whatever, but couldn't see if she had him in the frame, than maybe video mode would give a lot better chance than a single photo?
 
  • #513
This is what I think happened too. I also think LE does know who BG is and they are working on getting the evidence they need (forensic , circumstantial, witness statements, etc...) in order to secure a conviction.

I do think they have DNA, but BG is able to justify or explain why his DNA would be at the scene. I do not think there was a SA. I also don’t think SA was the motivating factor (Not sure what was the motivator, but I think it was anger). People have questioned why they’d continue taking DNA samples if they know who BG is...well, if they have foreign DNA I’d think they’d want to determine whose it is in the event of a trial. Why give the defense the opportunity to introduce reasonable doubt. ID all male DNA and determine where those people were and why their DNA would be at the scene. I think LE is just being thorough - dotting every I and crossing every T to make sure BG is convicted.

I think an individual(s) is providing an alibi and they are doing it knowingly. I felt like the PC was mostly directed at that person.

All JMO. This could change at anytime, but for now this is what I’m thinking.

Motive

I Have never really thought SA and I Don’t know why. To SA two girls in such a short time frame seems unrealistic don’t ask me why. That is just what I think.

I am still of the opinion they were in the wrong place at the same time as the perpetrator who was having a bad day for personal reasons and flipped. Maybe at something they did or said. Who knows?

I quite simply sense Anger, Rage then fear from the perpetrator

Do I think they were shot with a Gun well no not really unless it was silenced

Do I think the mobile call to Libby’s phone spoked him from DG Yes I do.

Do I think he is tech savvy, depends what tech savvy is, savvy enough not to take the mobile with him. So Savvy enough.

I would like to put a different slant what would happen if the perpetrator was looking for a peaceful place to end his own life and disturbed by youthful fun loving people

Just an alternative thought no rhyme nor reason why other than it hasn't been suggested previously

MingyMoo
 
  • #514
This is the most interesting point that has been made on these Delphi threads for months.
Maybe she was already in video mode?
 
  • #515
This case is so flipping odd.

And here we sit, waiting for "some day."

That's just not right, imo.

I get the feeling that something along these lines is one of the things that had the families so upset after speaking with the Supt on 4/22/19

Does somebody key to the case have to die of old age or sickness or misadventure before a move is made, or what?

Do we have to wait for new prosecutors or new leaders in the state capital (or the nation's capital*)? I just don't get it. Sorry.

*Referring to how the Supt got his job, is what I am saying on that last part. I am reasonably certain that Supt. Carter is a nice man...not a criticism of his character at all.
I think that despite the thousands of tips they would probably receive, they need to release the info on the car seen at the CPS building. That’s if they know what the make/color is. I see no reason for them to withhold that information and could be the one tip they are so desperately seeking.
 
  • #516
I think that despite the thousands of tips they would probably receive, they need to release the info on the car seen at the CPS building. That’s if they know what the make/color is. I see no reason for them to withhold that information and could be the one tip they are so desperately seeking.
I think they may now have the info, because they appear to no longer be mentioning it. MOO.
 
  • #517
Isn't it possible that the FBI billboard's 2:30 last seen time wasn't based on the video or audio at all, but from a witness? (I realize this doesn't correlate with FSG's 2:52)

It's been stated by LE more than once that there is a witness (or were witnesses), and we know sketches were made based off these witnesses. So if LE thinks these sightings were after the murders, than the witnesses were the last to see BG. Maybe the murders happened before 2:30.

I know others will disagree, but if BG didn't spend a lot of time with the girls, and the girls walked at a normal pace down the trail and across the bridge (instead of dawdling), I think that's a possibility. JMO. Just trying to think of all possibilities...
 
  • #518
I know nobody else really agrees but when I zoomed in on his face, using the ISP site's video of BG, I swear he's talking to himself.
I agree with you. I just watched it after zooming in on his face and it does look like that - like he is having a foul mouthed grumble to himself or even singing to himself. Here's the link for posters to also have a zoom in.

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation
 
  • #519
Motive

I Have never really thought SA and I Don’t know why. To SA two girls in such a short time frame seems unrealistic don’t ask me why. That is just what I think.

I am still of the opinion they were in the wrong place at the same time as the perpetrator who was having a bad day for personal reasons and flipped. Maybe at something they did or said. Who knows?

I quite simply sense Anger, Rage then fear from the perpetrator

Do I think they were shot with a Gun well no not really unless it was silenced

Do I think the mobile call to Libby’s phone spoked him from DG Yes I do.

Do I think he is tech savvy, depends what tech savvy is, savvy enough not to take the mobile with him. So Savvy enough.

I would like to put a different slant what would happen if the perpetrator was looking for a peaceful place to end his own life and disturbed by youthful fun loving people

Just an alternative thought no rhyme nor reason why other than it hasn't been suggested previously

MingyMoo
I agree with what you said, except that he perhaps planned to end his life.
 
  • #520
Why did Libby decided to take a video of BG and not a photo as she had of Abby? Was he doing or saying something?
Because she thought he was acting weird, and she knew a video would be better than a photo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
124
Guests online
2,509
Total visitors
2,633

Forum statistics

Threads
632,815
Messages
18,632,118
Members
243,302
Latest member
Corgimomma
Back
Top