Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[somequestions]

Actually, one of the Criminal Mind TV show FBI writers was a frequent contributor to the Amanda Knox discussions. The big difference between real people explaining the criminal process, and TV, is real time distortion, plus TV has to have a happy ending.

Don't assume that online activity is anonymous. Stores and institutions can mount digital tracking devices at the door and use software to track your movements in and out of the floor space. Software accesses the ID number on your phone to track you - the beauty of Smart Technology.

In any case, it looks like the evidence that is available has not yet made a difference. For example, there must be DNA evidence as it was used to rule out the possibility that these murders are related to the Evansdale cousin murders. They look so similar, but DNA says no.

That means that the person who did this does not have DNA on file, but what about relatives? Have investigators compared the DNA to what is available through open ancestry databases?

I did not know DNA evidence was used to exclude this case from being connected to the murders of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook in Evansdale, Iowa. I have to admit I would have thought that this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case looked similar enough to possibly be connected.

 

[otto]

I did not know DNA evidence was used to exclude this case from being connected to the murders of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook in Evansdale, Iowa. I have to admit I would have thought that this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case looked similar enough to possibly be connected.

That was my first question when these two young girls were murdered. Investigators ruled out a connection. It will take me some time to find the link.

 

[PaulR]

Actually, one of the Criminal Mind TV show FBI writers was a frequent contributor to the Amanda Knox discussions. The big difference between real people explaining the criminal process, and TV, is real time distortion, plus TV has to have a happy ending.

And one of the writers (maybe the same one?) was an FBI profiler before going into writing. There's a big difference between what he can write for a ~42 minutes TV show, and what he talks on his various podcasts.

 

[otto]

Actually, I stand corrected. I thought there was a DNA ruling meaning that there is no connection between the murders. However : as far as I can find, DNA was not used to rule out a connection. I can't find it, so maybe it was something we assumed when they so quickly ruled it out. It looks like it is still an open question, maybe one that deserves more attention so many years later.

"Indiana State Police say similarities between the double-slaying of two teenage girls three weeks ago and the unsolved 2012 murder of two Evansdale, Iowa, girls are "coincidental" at this point, but investigators are "not closed" to the idea of a connection.
...

Sgt. John Perrine, a spokesman for Indiana State Police, said the similarities amount to the fact that in both cases two young girls were killed in a rural area, on a trail, on what happened to be the 13th day of the month.
...

"We don’t have any evidence that leads us to believe these two cases are connected," Perrine said. "A lot of people would hope we can solve both of them."

"To me, if it isn’t the same person then that means there are two people out there capable of doing this ... and they’re going to do it again," Collins said. "People should be scared either way."
...

Perrine added that investigators are "not closed" to the idea of a connection,"​

Evansdale, Indiana double-homicide links 'coincidental,' Indiana State Police say

 

[sunshineray]

Actually, one of the Criminal Mind TV show FBI writers was a frequent contributor to the Amanda Knox discussions. The big difference between real people explaining the criminal process, and TV, is real time distortion, plus TV has to have a happy ending.

Don't assume that online activity is anonymous. Stores and institutions can mount digital tracking devices at the door and use software to track your movements in and out of the floor space. Software accesses the ID number on your phone to track you - the beauty of Smart Technology.

In any case, it looks like the evidence that is available has not yet made a difference. For example, there must be DNA evidence as it was used to rule out the possibility that these murders are related to the Evansdale cousin murders. They look so similar, but DNA says no.

That means that the person who did this does not have DNA on file, but what about relatives? Have investigators compared the DNA to what is available through open ancestry databases?

I've always thought that since it does seem like the DNA LE does have is not in the LE system or ancestral databases, that LE may have started an on-the-sly collection and sending of their random and "clean" POI's DNA, numerous ones even over some time (Sheriff Leazenby did mention in December 2018 article that "we sent more evidence") to FBI for possible matches. Maybe one of those matched in familial way to BG? Just theorizing.

 

[otto]

I've always thought that since it does seem like the DNA LE does have is not in the LE system or ancestral databases, that LE may have started an on-the-sly collection and sending of their random and "clean" POI's DNA, numerous ones even over some time (Sheriff Leazenby did mention in December 2018 article that "we sent more evidence") to FBI for possible matches. Maybe one of those matched in familial way to BG? Just theorizing.

Actually, I could not find any links stating that DNA was used to rule out a connection between the Abby/Libby and Lyric/Elizabeth murders on trails on the 13th of the month years apart. It looks like police acknowledged a connection early on but did not make it a priority without evidence.

 

[sunshineray]

Actually, I could not find any links stating that DNA was used to rule out a connection between the Abby/Libby and Lyric/Elizabeth murders on trails on the 13th of the month years apart. It looks like police acknowledged a connection early on but did not make it a priority without evidence.

I just meant matching to BG random Delphi locals with no records but who were an interest to LE for whatever reason. I didn't mean to reference the other case, sorry for that confusion. It is interesting though that LE hasn't closed the book on the two cases being linked.

 

[otto]

Where's @afitzy when you need her! What if we compiled everything we know about the two situations.

For example, both on remote areas of popular trails. How far are the trails from home?

Both may have been lured digitally, but there is no trail. The suspect does seem to be disguised and over-dressed for the day, and he probably disguised his voice as well.

He probably parked at the cemetery. When Lyric and Elizabeth were lured and killed, they parked their bikes at a gate where they could walk along the water to a secluded former party spot - easy to park and hide a vehicle. Vehicle nearby, Lyric and Elizabeth were murdered at another former popular spot for children's camps and fishing/hunting. Abby and Libby were murdered at a popular fishing spot.

There are similarities beyond murders on the 13th.

 

[otto]

I just meant matching to BG random Delphi locals with no records but who were an interest to LE for whatever reason. I didn't mean to reference the other case, sorry for that confusion. It is interesting though that LE hasn't closed the book on the two cases being linked.

If there is DNA with Abby and Libby, I hope it has been compared to genealogy/ancestry sites.

It looks like there's still an open question about whether the 2 murders of 2 girls on the 13th years apart are connected. We would have to have our heads in paper bags to not discuss it as a possibility - since it has not been ruled out.

Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham were murdered by the same man years apart, but there was no connection even though everything else looked similar - until DNA results.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Actually, one of the Criminal Mind TV show FBI writers was a frequent contributor to the Amanda Knox discussions. The big difference between real people explaining the criminal process, and TV, is real time distortion, plus TV has to have a happy ending.

Don't assume that online activity is anonymous. Stores and institutions can mount digital tracking devices at the door and use software to track your movements in and out of the floor space. Software accesses the ID number on your phone to track you - the beauty of Smart Technology.

In any case, it looks like the evidence that is available has not yet made a difference. For example, there must be DNA evidence as it was used to rule out the possibility that these murders are related to the Evansdale cousin murders. They look so similar, but DNA says no.

That means that the person who did this does not have DNA on file, but what about relatives? Have investigators compared the DNA to what is available through open ancestry databases?

Bbm - There is definitely real time distortion and exaggeration of LE’s abilities within a short timeframe.

I totally agree...Online activity is not anonymous, but data obtained from SC, FB, Insta, etc... is owned by SC, FB, and Insta, etc... not the government and not LE. Loads of private entities collect data on us, but they are in the business to make money and not in the business of being an arm of LE. Actually, corporations like SC seem to be exactly the opposite. They do assist and I’m sure some do so more readily than others (if you read their law enforcement guidelines). I’m just not confident that they are all overly helpful - FB congressional hearings.

I DO think they’ve gotten BG’s DNA. It’s almost impossible for him to have not left DNA - he clearly wasn’t wearing a hazmat suit. We shed skin cells constantly so the question for me isn’t did he leave DNA it’s more was it collected by crime scene. I thought I read that they collected quite a bit.

After looking through everything they may have say 10 DNA samples that come back to no one and they are trying to figure out who they are. If they are from the immediate scene and a person gives their DNA, but says they’ve never been to the trail that could be the clue/lead they are looking for. Could be they suspect someone is BG, but they can explain why their DNA is there. Could also be that the sample is of poor quality and it’s good enough to rule people out, but not to rule them in. I really don’t know what to think about the DNA.

I seriously doubt LE or former LE would give away ALL of LE’s tactics on a TV show. That would be irresponsible just for the sake of entertainment.

This is all JMO. Sorry for such a long response.

 

[otto]

Morgan Harrington's mother said that there had to be another victim for him to be caught, and that was Hannah Graham.

 

[otto]

Bbm - There is definitely real time distortion and exaggeration of LE’s abilities within a short timeframe.

I totally agree...Online activity is not anonymous, but data obtained from SC, FB, Insta, etc... is owned by SC, FB, and Insta, etc... not the government and not LE. Loads of private entities collect data on us, but they are in the business to make money and not in the business of being an arm of LE. Actually, corporations like SC seem to be exactly the opposite. They do assist and I’m sure some do so more readily than others (if you read their law enforcement guidelines). I’m just not confident that they are all overly helpful - FB congressional hearings.

I DO think they’ve gotten BG’s DNA. It’s almost impossible for him to have not left DNA - he clearly wasn’t wearing a hazmat suit. We shed skin cells constantly so the question for me isn’t did he leave DNA it’s more was it collected by crime scene. I thought I read that they collected quite a bit.

After looking through everything they may have say 10 DNA samples that come back to no one and they are trying to figure out who they are. If they are from the immediate scene and a person gives their DNA, but says they’ve never been to the trail that could be the clue/lead they are looking for. Could be they suspect someone is BG, but they can explain why their DNA is there. Could also be that the sample is of poor quality and it’s good enough to rule people out, but not to rule them in. I really don’t know what to think about the DNA.

I seriously doubt LE or former LE would give away ALL of LE’s tactics on a TV show. That would be irresponsible just for the sake of entertainment.

This is all JMO. Sorry for such a long response.

We all agree that TV is designed to entertain, yet here we are.

 

[heartgoesout]

Otto, I see your name includes Verified Expert. What have you been verified for?

 

[otto]

Otto, I see your name includes Verified Expert. What have you been verified for?

Absolutely nothing. I've just been here so long they've given me a star - like emeritus without the status. Kidding. I'm a theoretical mathematician, industrial designer, educator, instructional designer, engineering and architecture instructor, software monkey, and Smart Tech researcher. ... master at none.

 

[acutename]

Where's @afitzy when you need her! What if we compiled everything we know about the two situations.

For example, both on remote areas of popular trails. How far are the trails from home?

Both may have been lured digitally, but there is no trail. The suspect does seem to be disguised and over-dressed for the day, and he probably disguised his voice as well.

He probably parked at the cemetery. When Lyric and Elizabeth were lured and killed, they parked their bikes at a gate where they could walk along the water to a secluded former party spot - easy to park and hide a vehicle. Vehicle nearby, Lyric and Elizabeth were murdered at another former popular spot for children's camps and fishing/hunting. Abby and Libby were murdered at a popular fishing spot.

There are similarities beyond murders on the 13th.

pretty sure this was discussed before- L & E killed in 2012, so murderer was potentially 5 years younger.... If he was 22 in 2017, then 17 in 2012.... If he was 18 in 2017, then 13 in 2012. If he was very young in 2012, he was smaller and could probably not drive or would have been without a license and his own car. How many possible suspects were in IA in 2012 and in IN in 2017? Not an infinite number, but if old enough to drive, more likely one person could travel between the two sites.

I am more curious about a person who kills two other people- Difficult and why? Had two sisters he did not like? Had a mother or girlfriend who went off with another woman? Just seems like a weird choice, IMO.

 

[cody22]

Absolutely nothing. I've just been here so long they're giving me a star - like emeritus without the status.

LOL !.....mooooooooo

 

[ACE422]

Someone else could very easily have been down the hill at the end of the bridge.

If one were to have planned such an atrocity with a partner, it would certainly be an ideal location to do so, especially for someone with intimate knowledge of the area.

Small towns are a curious culture. People talk about other people’s lives and become quite “nosey” at times about other people’s behavior. At the same time, there are often big secrets. Secrets that are fiercely protected, sometimes with intimidation or violence. The police think people will be shocked when the murderer is revealed. Someone knows something. Someone is protecting someone else...or they are protecting themself and/or their family. MOO

 

[heartgoesout]

Absolutely nothing. I've just been here so long they've given me a star - like emeritus without the status. Kidding. I'm a theoretical mathematician, industrial designer, educator, instructional designer, engineering and architecture instructor, software monkey, and Smart Tech researcher. ... master at none.

 

[JnRyan]

Morgan Harrington's mother said that there had to be another victim for him to be caught, and that was Hannah Graham.

Unfortunately, several of Jesse Matthew's co-workers saw a resemblance between the sketch and Mathew, but chose to make jokes about it instead of calling in a tip. I wonder how many in this case see a resemblance between the sketch and the killer but choose not to call it in. "Oh, it couldn't be my co-worker. He is too nice."

Then Hannah Graham was murdered.

 

[otto]

pretty sure this was discussed before- L & E killed in 2012, so murderer was potentially 5 years younger.... If he was 22 in 2017, then 17 in 2012.... If he was 18 in 2017, then 13 in 2012. If he was very young in 2012, he was smaller and could probably not drive or would have been without a license and his own car. How many possible suspects were in IA in 2012 and in IN in 2017? Not an infinite number, but if old enough to drive, more likely one person could travel between the two sites.

I am more curious about a person who kills two other people- Difficult and why? Had two sisters he did not like? Had a mother or girlfriend who went off with another woman? Just seems like a weird choice, IMO.

The thing about the Lyric abduction is that she was lured to a different park with her somewhat older female cousin a day or two before she took Elizabeth to the trail when their grandmother was not looking. Lyric took younger Elizabeth to the park trail near Elizabeth's house, even though she didn't live in the area. Elizabeth knew she was not supposed to go there, even though she was allowed to ride to visit a friend who lived near the park.

Lyric's parents called police a day or two before the abduction because Lyric was at a different park to meet a man through Lyric's cousin.

Maybe the man that abducted Abby and Libby was 31, and the man who abducted Lyric looked younger than 26. Lyric and Elizabeth were taken away in a vehicle. Their bikes and Elizabeth's purse were left behind at the isolated gate on the trail.

Is there's some sort of pig or corn industry that has employees in Iowa and Indiana?