Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Tippy Lynn]

Could he be referring to his first day of Rumspringa?

Well......there's a thought I hadn't thought of. Good thinking.

 

[almagata]

I was reading an article about mixed DNA samples. (Current developments in forensic interpretation of mixed DNA samples (Review))

The way I picture the results on these mixed samples displaying, is that for the 13 alleles that are compared in a criminal DNA test, the results show two results for each of the 13 alleles. The results from the victim are removed from the mixed sample results and then law enforcement can see the offenders DNA profile isolated. This method works fine if there is a single suspect but if there are multiple attackers or if there is DNA that is not relevant to the attack, it is much harder to isolate the unique alleles of each offender.

We suspect in the Delphi case, that law enforcement has some DNA even if it is touch DNA that is mixed with Abby or Libby's own DNA. We know that Kelsi's DNA was taken three times based on her social medial posts. So why would law enforcement take Kelsi's DNA when they already have Libbys? Ostensibly, it was taken multiple times to rule Kelsi out but maybe there is something more with these retests.

I have to wonder if it is possible that BG is related by blood to Libby. Perhaps one of the male German family members had a relationship years ago that produced a son that was unknown to the father. In that case, the DNA would be very similar to both Libby and Kelsi and would confuse the DNA lab techs. The DNA would also be similar to Derrick's and any other German family male. In this scenario, the offender might not even realize that he was DNA related to Libby.

 

[almagata]

deleted - duplicate post

 

[JnRyan]

I was reading an article about mixed DNA samples. (Current developments in forensic interpretation of mixed DNA samples (Review))

The way I picture the results on these mixed samples displaying, is that for the 13 alleles that are compared in a criminal DNA test, the results show two results for each of the 13 alleles. The results from the victim are removed from the mixed sample results and then law enforcement can see the offenders DNA profile isolated. This method works fine if there is a single suspect but if there are multiple attackers or if there is DNA that is not relevant to the attack, it is much harder to isolate the unique alleles of each offender.

We suspect in the Delphi case, that law enforcement has some DNA even if it is touch DNA that is mixed with Abby or Libby's own DNA. We know that Kelsi's DNA was taken three times based on her social medial posts. So why would law enforcement take Kelsi's DNA when they already have Libbys? Ostensibly, it was taken multiple times to rule Kelsi out but maybe there is something more with these retests.

I have to wonder if it is possible that BG is related by blood to Libby. Perhaps one of the male German family members had a relationship years ago that produced a son that was unknown to the father. In that case, the DNA would be very similar to both Libby and Kelsi and would confuse the DNA lab techs. The DNA would also be similar to Derrick's and any other German family male. In this scenario, the offender might not even realize that he was DNA related to Libby.

If I had to guess LE took Kelsi's DNA because she loaned one of them her hooded jacket that she usually kept in her car. It would have her DNA on it and would probably be needed so it could be eliminated by the lab.

 

[CCJD]

Could he be referring to his first day of Rumspringa?

The Amish community is at least somewhat on LE's radar.

“We also understand there is a small Amish community as well as a German Baptist community that doesn't necessarily follow electronic forms of media,” said Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocum. “This is just another way we can get the information in front of their eyeballs, maybe they saw something and can give us a call.”
Flyers, posters seek info in Delphi murders

 

[NameUser]

Did we ever get a ruling on discussing information from the Podcasts? there is some info in them that is usually banished to the basement, that I think some would like to discuss.

Please advise!

Thanks Mods!

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

The HLN podcast is so heartbreaking. Listening to LE, Abby and Libby’s friends, families, and others in the Delphi community talk about how the murders affected them personally makes an already immensely sad case that much more tragic.

 

[Ozoner]

Hi
Anybody else think that possibly DC knows who the BG is?

No. Local LE has stated that there's enough evidence to convict once they figure out who BG is. DC is just as clueless about BG's identity as anyone else.

 

[Sillybilly]

Did we ever get a ruling on discussing information from the Podcasts? there is some info in them that is usually banished to the basement, that I think some would like to discuss.

Please advise!

Thanks Mods!

Not 100% sure which podcast you are referring to, but Gray Hughes and Mike Murford have been authorized by Tricia, so Scene of the Crime is okay to discuss. As per Tricia's post on Pg 1 of this thread, please make sure to use initials.

 

[Tealgrove]

I CANNOT believe it's been 3 years since the murders of Abbey and Libby.

Please let today be the day!

 

[Charlot123]

I was reading an article about mixed DNA samples. (Current developments in forensic interpretation of mixed DNA samples (Review))

The way I picture the results on these mixed samples displaying, is that for the 13 alleles that are compared in a criminal DNA test, the results show two results for each of the 13 alleles. The results from the victim are removed from the mixed sample results and then law enforcement can see the offenders DNA profile isolated. This method works fine if there is a single suspect but if there are multiple attackers or if there is DNA that is not relevant to the attack, it is much harder to isolate the unique alleles of each offender.

We suspect in the Delphi case, that law enforcement has some DNA even if it is touch DNA that is mixed with Abby or Libby's own DNA. We know that Kelsi's DNA was taken three times based on her social medial posts. So why would law enforcement take Kelsi's DNA when they already have Libbys? Ostensibly, it was taken multiple times to rule Kelsi out but maybe there is something more with these retests.

I have to wonder if it is possible that BG is related by blood to Libby. Perhaps one of the male German family members had a relationship years ago that produced a son that was unknown to the father. In that case, the DNA would be very similar to both Libby and Kelsi and would confuse the DNA lab techs. The DNA would also be similar to Derrick's and any other German family male. In this scenario, the offender might not even realize that he was DNA related to Libby.

Interesting... thank you for the article.

Your version is very attractive. Another fact - the girls were wearing Kelsi's sweatshirts. So if touch DNA was on Abby, perhaps it was mixed with that of Kelsi? And Kelsi's DNA was all over the sweatshirt, of course. So to separate Kelsi's DNA from that of Abby and maybe the touch DNA better, several tests were run?

If the relative is German, they would probably need to phase Kelsi's and Libby's DNA against the father and the mother, to see the "foreign" pieces. That might need additional testing. I think the more plausible version would be certin degree of endogamy in Delphi as it is a small place where people did not migrate that much. That in general could make testing difficult, as many locals could be third cousins, fourth cousins, and how about double cousins?

 

[almagata]

If I had to guess LE took Kelsi's DNA because she loaned one of them her hooded jacket that she usually kept in her car. It would have her DNA on it and would probably be needed so it could be eliminated by the lab.

Yes, we know that Kelsi loaned her jacket that day and I can see taking a DNA sample from her to be able to rule out her DNA profile. What I don't understand is taking three samples. Three implies to me that they did not trust the results that they had gotten from the prior two tests.

 

[BNA]

I was reading an article about mixed DNA samples. (Current developments in forensic interpretation of mixed DNA samples (Review))

The way I picture the results on these mixed samples displaying, is that for the 13 alleles that are compared in a criminal DNA test, the results show two results for each of the 13 alleles. The results from the victim are removed from the mixed sample results and then law enforcement can see the offenders DNA profile isolated. This method works fine if there is a single suspect but if there are multiple attackers or if there is DNA that is not relevant to the attack, it is much harder to isolate the unique alleles of each offender.

We suspect in the Delphi case, that law enforcement has some DNA even if it is touch DNA that is mixed with Abby or Libby's own DNA. We know that Kelsi's DNA was taken three times based on her social medial posts. So why would law enforcement take Kelsi's DNA when they already have Libbys? Ostensibly, it was taken multiple times to rule Kelsi out but maybe there is something more with these retests.

I have to wonder if it is possible that BG is related by blood to Libby. Perhaps one of the male German family members had a relationship years ago that produced a son that was unknown to the father. In that case, the DNA would be very similar to both Libby and Kelsi and would confuse the DNA lab techs. The DNA would also be similar to Derrick's and any other German family male. In this scenario, the offender might not even realize that he was DNA related to Libby.

What is the source for KG giving 3 samples? Sorry if already asked and answered.

 

[Falling Down]

JMOO but I'm thinking BG had a gun, as if he'd whipped a knife out I'd imagine the girls would have been able to turn on their heels and run (certainly faster than the bulky fella on the bridge could have done).
Also, this would explain how he'd have been able to gesture "down the hill" and control them both to some extent.
I believe he was a visitor to the place, had probably walked that bridge and played in the surrounding areas as a kid (so knew where to take them etc).
My worry would be, why was he packing in the first place ? he'll not have known the girls were going to be there but I guess the laws over there on gun carrying vary from place to place (he may have had a license to carry a concealed weapon etc).
Question - I haven't had the time to go over the whole case but why do you think he was complacent in the fact that he didn't take the phone off the girl so he could a) delete his pic b) destroy the phone to conceal evidence or c) take the phone with him etc ? Seems a major mistake for a double killer to make.
Oh and on my first viewing of the pic of BG I honestly thought that was just his hair (helmet head hairstyles are normally those of us with thick hair that have had a style that has grown out / been left etc).
I'd imagine that he'll have totally changed his appearance by now, he could also be 100lbs lighter and looks nothing like he did 3 years ago (I think he looks to be 30-40 years old).

Just going off of personal experience, yes physical appearance can change drastically over even short periods of time, say months. I've seen cases here on WS where perps' appearances change a lot. I've seen here in Indiana the ravages of meth first-hand, a user will be much lighter in weight, sometimes, than when they quit or take a break from using. We're talking 100#+ weight swings.

JMO

 

[margarita25]

I wonder what BG was doing at this moment, three years ago today. Day before the Crime.

Where was he? What was going on in his life at the time? Was he making plans to kill someone tomorrow?

 

[tresir2012]

Not 100% sure which podcast you are referring to, but Gray Hughes and Mike Murford have been authorized by Tricia, so Scene of the Crime is okay to discuss. As per Tricia's post on Pg 1 of this thread, please make sure to use initials.

Underwear is mentioned in the podcast. Can we now discuss it?

 

[almagata]

What is the source for KG giving 3 samples? Sorry if already asked and answered.

I'll have to go back and find the video where Kelsi was interviewed and post the link.

 

[YoIci]

"Major changes are underway at the place near where Abby Williams and Libby German were found dead."

$260K renovation underway to turn Delphi's Monon High Bridge into pedestrian trail

The reporter also says he will ask Indiana State Police's Superintendent for updated answers to questions about the case for another article.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

A new article today....rehashes everything we already know and I really haven't mentioned much below that hasn't already been discussed. I have bolded some of the things that caught my eye. My commentary is in red.

Sorry, it got a bit long....either grab a coffee and read away, or just scroll and roll!

FEBRUARY 12, 2020
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

"(We) thought we were going to get the clues that we needed and be done with this in four or five days," ISP Detective Jerry Holeman told RTV6 in 2019. "We realized that this is a totally different type of investigation.”

LE alluding to this over and over again leads me to believe that there is a big piece of this puzzle that we the public are all missing. I don't think it involves any of the stuff that has been rumored on social media, I think it ties back to LE originally mentioning that there could be more than one person involved. JMO

[........]

But despite all of the evidence released to the public, investigators have always been open about the fact that they are holding some of it close to their vests with the goal of having information that only the killer would know when they finally arrest him.

There must be a reason why they are staying so tight-lipped about COD and whether or not SA took place. I think that this ties back to Ives statement about how the crime scene evidence was 'somewhat odd and physically strange'. (EPISODE 3 Scene of the Crime Podcast - around 8 minutes in.) ‎Scene of the Crime: Delphi on Apple Podcasts

[.........]

"When we decided that, through the information we received, that we were going to release the second sketch I don’t believe the individual knew we were going to do that. So, it was really, really important. I think he was probably there and/or watching, simply because he thought we were on the wrong path," Carter said when the second sketch was released.

I am confident that their strategy changed based on the info they received, and that it was sometime before February 2019 (no sketch shown at last year's February presser is what clinches that for me personally.) In order for Carter to say that he doesn't believe the individual knew they were going to release that second sketch, they must have some inkling of whom it is, otherwise making that pretty bold statement doesn't really make sense. They had to have determined that NBG had some sort of a reaction in order to say that. JMO

In addition, how else would they know that 'he thought they were on the wrong path?' Granted, the 1st sketch becoming 'secondary' has given most of us a big punch in the gut as many of us have thought they must have been looking at/for the wrong person this entire time, but perhaps things just aren't what they seem? Could be that they knew this sketch was there the entire time and who it was, but the pieces didn't fit until they received the 'new information.'

I have a theory that the killer has been playing sort of a game of cat and mouse with LE from day 1. I think that he has at some point in time has offered assistance with the investigation (not in investigative way) and through this tactic tried to find out 'what they knew.' It may have been what they meant when Carter said back in May 2019 that they were 'onto something early on.'

With the anniversary approaching tomorrow and no announcement of a Press Conference I am not discouraged. I am hopeful. I believe and hope that it means that they are very close to making an arrest and that they know whose tracks they are following and no longer are in need of a massive infusion of tips from the public as it seems that is what they have asked for in the last several pressers.

JMO, thoughts and theories.

I hope that today is the day.

 

[Falling Down]

A new article today....rehashes everything we already know and I really haven't mentioned much below that hasn't already been discussed. I have bolded some of the things that caught my eye. My commentary is in red.

Sorry, it got a bit long....either grab a coffee and read away, or just scroll and roll!

FEBRUARY 12, 2020
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

"(We) thought we were going to get the clues that we needed and be done with this in four or five days," ISP Detective Jerry Holeman told RTV6 in 2019. "We realized that this is a totally different type of investigation.”

LE alluding to this over and over again leads me to believe that there is a big piece of this puzzle that we the public are all missing. I don't think it involves any of the stuff that has been rumored on social media, I think it ties back to LE originally mentioning that there could be more than one person involved. JMO

[........]

But despite all of the evidence released to the public, investigators have always been open about the fact that they are holding some of it close to their vests with the goal of having information that only the killer would know when they finally arrest him.

There must be a reason why they are staying so tight-lipped about COD and whether or not SA took place. I think that this ties back to Ives statement about how the crime scene evidence was 'somewhat odd and physically strange'. (EPISODE 3 Scene of the Crime Podcast - around 8 minutes in.) ‎Scene of the Crime: Delphi on Apple Podcasts

[.........]

"When we decided that, through the information we received, that we were going to release the second sketch I don’t believe the individual knew we were going to do that. So, it was really, really important. I think he was probably there and/or watching, simply because he thought we were on the wrong path," Carter said when the second sketch was released.

I am confident that their strategy changed based on the info they received, and that it was sometime before February 2019 (no sketch shown at last year's February presser is what clinches that for me personally.) In order for Carter to say that he doesn't believe the individual knew they were going to release that second sketch, they must have some inkling of whom it is, otherwise making that pretty bold statement doesn't really make sense. They had to have determined that NBG had some sort of a reaction in order to say that. JMO

In addition, how else would they know that 'he thought they were on the wrong path?' Granted, the 1st sketch becoming 'secondary' has given most of us a big punch in the gut as many of us have thought they must have been looking at/for the wrong person this entire time, but perhaps things just aren't what they seem? Could be that they knew this sketch was there the entire time and who it was, but the pieces didn't fit until they received the 'new information.'

I have a theory that the killer has been playing sort of a game of cat and mouse with LE from day 1. I think that he has at some point in time has offered assistance with the investigation (not in investigative way) and through this tactic tried to find out 'what they knew.' It may have been what they meant when Carter said back in May 2019 that they were 'onto something early on.'

With the anniversary approaching tomorrow and no announcement of a Press Conference I am not discouraged. I am hopeful. I believe and hope that it means that they are very close to making an arrest and that they know whose tracks they are following and no longer are in need of a massive infusion of tips from the public as it seems that is what they have asked for in the last several pressers.

JMO, thoughts and theories.

I hope that today is the day.

Great post.

May take on the possibilities regarding LE's tack for the last year or so is there is a strong possibility BG has been in contact with LE, in what ways and forms are anybody's guess. I also think that if there has been contact, LE may very well be keeping that close to the vest, as well.

On my end, I think that if there is a cat-and-mouse scenario, or has been further back during the investigation, LE don't have a clue as to BG's identity, but they may have been in contact, which explains the 2nd sketch (which is actually the first sketch from the investigation, far as I know), and yes they did seek to rattle BG's cage. I have faith in much of what LE has said since early last year, I don't like how they went about the investigation during the first year or so, though.

Lots of questions on my end, but I think the April PC last year was more fruitful than a lot of us may realize.

JMO