Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Laura60]

I have gone back and forth on this thinking he was not local to Delphi and then he had to be local, to now back to not being local. Maybe familiar with the area, but not living there. It's hard to believe that he could be living in Delphi this whole time with the small town and no one recognize him with the photos, video and voice that we have. I do find it odd that the family is asking questions of LE in the podcast. LE seems to say the crime scene was odd at times. I think everything about this is odd. I think it's odd that for there to be so much evidence at the scene, in a small town that we haven't solved it. But I also find it odd that they called off the search that night.

I don’t think it would have made a diffference,as they were apparently already deceased,but it would have been better if all searchers were better organised. I still think the creek itself played a pivotal role

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Until recently, I didn’t know much about the Iowa murders, but I did a bit of reading up on that case after they kept getting mentioned in relation to Delphi.
I don’t have anything of substance to add, other than how striking the similarities are between the two cases. I know LE said they don’t believe there is a connection between the two crimes, but does anyone know of similar murders that have occurred in the Midwest between the the time of the Iowa murders and Delphi?

The most striking similarity to me between the two cases is in both cases LE chose early on to release absolutely no information and years later both sit unsolved. And I fear that’s how it will remain. The longer you wait to release information to try and get help from the public, the less chance of it being helpful. Maybe too late now.

 

[Falling Down]

I don’t think it would have made a diffference,as they were apparently already deceased,but it would have been better if all searchers were better organised. I still think the creek itself played a pivotal role

I try to put myself in the shoes of the searchers that night. It took a while to get the search going, by then it would have been pitch black dark along that main trail, around the bridge, on the private parties, etc. They would have had to use caution, and in some cases extreme caution, in traversing the terrain in those conditions, despite the foliage and much of the scrub not being present due to the time of year.

There was zero indication where the girls could be at that point. So the search centered around the bridge and a little downstream towards Delphi, not upstream towards where they were found the next day. Folks were even searching in town and out in the country at houses they might have gone to. There was little organization to the search I think largely because searchers really didn't know where to go beyond where Libby had posted the images to SC shortly after 2PM.

Those images were distributed among searchers
via their phones, which is where the "7h" designation on the images came from. A young searcher had grabbed the images from SC to put on his phone roughly 7 hours after the images had been uploaded. That searcher was interviewed at the VFD in town where the search HQ was located, and the interview aired on a Indy TV station at either 10PM or 11PM, or both, I don't remember which and unfortunately the video was pulled a long time ago.

All the searchers knew about the girls' whereabouts was they'd made it to the bridge.

 

[sunshineray]

So, we can assume till the cows come home.
What I see, the girls are dead, the relatives are interviewing the police (weird!), lots of podcasts, money for the new park, sensationalsized crime.
The superintendent is politically astute and very obstinate. All I can say. I also feel that there could be a better detective, even from his own team.
I don't expect this case to be solved, seeing the way it is going. I am drawn to it because it is so strange, but I am hopeless.

Once again - heard DC being interviewed by KG (or at least, she asked him some questions) and thought, weirdness abound. Her own dad has been neither seen nor heard. I am not in any way criticizing him. It probably has to be so. But I have to.say - with two family members like this, the situation when DC is in the same podcast with the family, looks odd.
I view it as DC's mistake.

They all did those Crime Con things also right? The family and LE all on one stage together answering questions.

 

[Charlot123]

They all did those Crime Con things also right? The family and LE all on one stage together answering questions.

Yes, and of course it is DC's choice, but each time I see him with them, I want to ask, "dude, has the murder case been solved? No? Then too early for preening on the scene".

<modsnip>

 

[Charlot123]

Keep in mind that likely Abby & Libby would have stayed together over any other options: controlling one was likely controlling both.

JMHO YMMV

Snipped by me.

But then, the man should have known them well! Known they were inseparable friends, known their personalities. He could not leave one alive, it would have been a witness, but to predict their reaction, he had to know them! How? Where from? Did he have a kid in the same class?

 

[Charlot123]

Think I've been over-foccusing on this case. After listening to the latest podcasts I can't in my head separate the voice of Carter and the voice saying 'down the hill'.

There are simply voices like that in Indiana. Hoarse. Holeman has such a voice, too. Plus, I don't know how much the recording on an iPhone that is probably in a pocket(?) distorts the voice. Real BG might sound somewhat differently.

 

[TandraJones]

Can anyone link some videos of the interactions between Carter and the family members? I'm curious about it now, ty

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Can anyone link some videos of the interactions between Carter and the family members? I'm curious about it now, ty

I don't know of any videos but the recent podcast "Scene of the Crime" (which was very well done, by the way) had some discussions between Carter and Libby's sister as I recall.

 

[Ozoner]

Snipped by me.

But then, the man should have known them well! Known they were inseparable friends, known their personalities. He could not leave one alive, it would have been a witness, but to predict their reaction, he had to know them! How? Where from? Did he have a kid in the same class?

Zero evidence BG knew the girls. Zero.

 

[holtzmann]

I can't believe it's been ten months since the sketch was released... we were so hopeful that something big was coming.

I still see the search being called off as a matter of debate; my two cents — a search will always put the safety of its participants as its top priority. LE has to be careful that volunteers are not injured on their watch. It was pitch black in a wooded area around a creek that night — a recipe for somebody getting tripped up, falling, or worse. I will never consider it strange that the police halted the search until morning. MOO.

 

[IceIce9]

I wish someone with vast experience who is not from Delphi would offer fresh eyes on this case because I truly believe that at a minimum is what it will take to solve this case and bring closure. does anyone know if the John Walsh special on this case has aired because i cannot find it? I wish Mark Fuhrman or someone like him would step up and investigate further otherwise I would think BG will never be held accountable ugh

If I were a family member of one of the girls I would have lost patience with LE and hired a private detective long before now.

 

[What if...]

I can't believe it's been ten months since the sketch was released... we were so hopeful that something big was coming.

I still see the search being called off as a matter of debate; my two cents — a search will always put the safety of its participants as its top priority. LE has to be careful that volunteers are not injured on their watch. It was pitch black in a wooded area around a creek that night — a recipe for somebody getting tripped up, falling, or worse. I will never consider it strange that the police halted the search until morning. MOO.

I somewhat agree with you on this. Had it ever been stated whether or not a police presence was left on the scene that night? In an official capacity? I imagine there may have been some off duty that stayed on with the unofficial search that continued afterwards, but I do wonder if any on duty uniformed officers maintained any type of presence.
Not sure the thought takes me anywhere specific, but I believe the answer would provide some additional insight to LE’s thinking that evening.

 

[IceIce9]

Zero evidence BG knew the girls. Zero.

I think it is quite likely BG knew the girls, as Delphi is a such a small town, many people are related, many people know each other, and he could have known them or known of them.

 

[What if...]

If I were a family member of one of the girls I would have lost patience with LE and hired a private detective long before now.

I probably would have too at this point, but that’s my opinion as someone on the outside looking in. Private detectives often times do produce really good results, but sometimes they can really throw an investigation off course. For me, it would come down to how much faith I had in the detectives leading the case. In this situation, I would probably seek out a detective with LE background - one that could move the case forward without hindering the investigative strategies of LE.

Actually, as I sit here thinking about it, I honestly can’t say what I would do. In all actuality, if it were one of my children that had been murdered in this fashion, I would probably have very little input as I would probably still be sitting in a mental health ward somewhere.

 

[Cryptic]

I have gone back and forth on this thinking he was not local to Delphi and then he had to be local, to now back to not being local. Maybe familiar with the area, but not living there.

It's hard to believe that he could be living in Delphi this whole time with the small town and no one recognize him with the photos, video and voice that we have.

Though I share your concerns, I think the following could still indicate a local:

- The final description of the killer is jumbled and represents a large age range.
- The voice is not distinct for the area. Neither is the killer's ethnicity.
- Delphi is small (2,300), but not extremely small. The county has a population of 20,000. If one considers an individual from say, the Delphi's quadrant of the county as "local", the number of locals grows to say, 5,000- perhaps more as the Delphi area could be the more densely populated quadrant.
- 5,000 is still small, but the sketch, photos and possibility of blended features could represent the majority of adult males in that population.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I can't believe it's been ten months since the sketch was released... we were so hopeful that something big was coming.

I still see the search being called off as a matter of debate; my two cents — a search will always put the safety of its participants as its top priority. LE has to be careful that volunteers are not injured on their watch. It was pitch black in a wooded area around a creek that night — a recipe for somebody getting tripped up, falling, or worse. I will never consider it strange that the police halted the search until morning. MOO.

I pretty much agree with you. Plus, the fact is there were people...friends, family, etc...who remained there all night searching as best they could.
LE’s decision to not aid in those efforts whatever their reasoning was not their finest hour for sure. The thing that bothers me the most about LE stopping their search was when they said the girls were not in any danger. We all know after the fact that the girls were beyond help at that point but at the time one of the main thoughts was that the girls were hurt or lost but under that thought they called the search off even though the girls were lightly dressed and temperatures were dropping. I think that puts them in danger.

 

[Charlot123]

Zero evidence BG knew the girls. Zero.

I would say, zero evidence they knew him. He might have known them, or about them. He had to factor in their fierce loyalty to one another. Either way. Even an SK, although a non-local SK risks less if one runs away.

But think of this. If the family says, one of the girls could have run away but did not abandon the friend, they might have some proof to it in the audio. A SK not knowing the girls takes his risk...but one could run away, yell, scream, set up Delphi on the chase for him, make the day spoiled. Either way, be a witness. So either he knows how to abduct a kill a group -and these are not Lyric and Elizabeth, children... these are athletic teenagers, and he does limp, to me, at least - so he has been trained in this thing; or, he knows that neither of the girls will run for her life. And this, to me, is the most tricky point, we can not predict human behavior. It is emotional. Logically, it would have been one better if one girl ran away, because another was doomed anyhow.

And how does one know what emotion would prevail? Why not plain old fear?

 

[Charlot123]

Zero evidence BG knew the girls. Zero.

I would say, zero evidence they knew him. He might have known them, or about them. He had to factor in their fierce loyalty to one another. Either way. Even an SK, although a non-local SK risks less if one runs away.

But think of this. If the family says, one of the girls could have run away but did not abandon the friend, they might have some proof to it in the audio. A SK not knowing the girls takes his risk...but one could run away, yell, scream, set up Delphi on the chase for him, make the day spoiled. Either way, be a witness. So either he knows how to abduct a kill a group -and these are not Lyric and Elizabeth, mere children... these are athletic teenagers, and he does limp, to me, at least - so he has been trained in this thing; or, he knows that neither of the girls will run for her life. And this, to me, is the most tricky point, because IRL, we can not predict human behavior. It is emotional. (Logically, it would have been better if one girl ran away, because another was doomed anyhow).

And how does one know what emotion would prevail? Why not plain old fear?

If I thought that some major international cartel with hired assassins operated in Delphi, I’d blame it on them. But I doubt, because the money for this is not in Delphi, or at least doesn’t seem so. However the killing is too well-organized, everyone hints at someone local or familiar with the locality and yet no one knows the person; from very thin hints I can guess there are sadistic elements (typical for a SK), and yet they probably can’t link them to similar MO in other places, and on top of it, the person knows how to leave no DNA! How? Or the DNA was there, but can be easily explained (I don’t think so, for many reasons). And I can’t believe he is young from the video or the audio, and yet older people don’t know that much about DNA, and also, it was pre-GK case age. (GK’s case was published when? 2018?).

And nothing leaks out, and it is the strangest thing. DC doesn’t talk...well, usually the people talk. Here, nada. Fear.

If it were a random SK from the Packers, people would scream about the details out of fear. Here, it is as if they are scared that someone will come for their child if they talk.

How can we reconstruct it all?

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

Snipped by me for focus.

But think of this. If the family says, one of the girls could have run away but did not abandon the friend, they might have some proof to it in the audio. A SK not knowing the girls takes his risk...but one could run away, yell, scream, set up Delphi on the chase for him, make the day spoiled. Either way, be a witness. So either he knows how to abduct a kill a group -and these are not Lyric and Elizabeth, children... these are athletic teenagers, and he does limp, to me, at least - so he has been trained in this thing; or, he knows that neither of the girls will run for her life.

I think this is where the theory of two people comes in. To me, it seems fairly likely that two people were involved. I would think that unless one of the girls was somehow incapacitated, she would have ran when her friend was being attacked. Or at least screamed. The family says they were loyal to one another, and I have no doubt that was the case, but at a certain point I do believe self preservation instincts would kick in, especially knowing there was nothing she could do for her friend unless she called/ran for help. So IMO, I would not be surprised if one girl was either knocked unconscious while the other was attacked or there was two people involved—one who held one of the girls back while the other was attacked. It just doesn’t make sense to me any other way. MOO.