Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[KAYTOM]

Snipped by me for focus.



I think this is where the theory of two people comes in. To me, it seems fairly likely that two people were involved. I would think that unless one of the girls was somehow incapacitated, she would have ran when her friend was being attacked. Or at least screamed. The family says they were loyal to one another, and I have no doubt that was the case, but at a certain point I do believe self preservation instincts would kick in, especially knowing there was nothing she could do for her friend unless she called/ran for help. So IMO, I would not be surprised if one girl was either knocked unconscious while the other was attacked or there was two people involved—one who held one of the girls back while the other was attacked. It just doesn’t make sense to me any other way. MOO.

I haven't been following this closely as of late, but I'd think that all the BG needed to abduct 2 people is a gun. Look at the Jacob Wetterling case. The perpetrator stopped three boys riding bikes by pointing a gun at them. Once the fear of being shot sets in, the people freeze, follow instructions ect. He could have used a ruse too, like BTK did when he ordered the family members to tie each other up in the basement under the pretense that it was just going to be a robbery.

The other thing to think about is the mental state of the perp. Some are compulsive, probably suffer from wishful thinking and take incredible risks to carry out there crimes. Look at the Faye Swetlick case. The poor girl vanished from her own neighborhood and somehow missed being seen by all the neighbors and any security cameras.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I haven't been following this closely as of late, but I'd think that all the BG needed to abduct 2 people is a gun. Look at the Jacob Wetterling case. The perpetrator stopped three boys riding bikes by pointing a gun at them. Once the fear of being shot sets in, the people freeze, follow instructions ect. He could have used a ruse too, like BTK did when he ordered the family members to tie each other up in the basement under the pretense that it was just going to be a robbery.

The other thing to think about is the mental state of the perp. Some are compulsive, probably suffer from wishful thinking and take incredible risks to carry out there crimes. Look at the Faye Swetlick case. The poor girl vanished from her own neighborhood and somehow missed being seen by all the neighbors and any security cameras.

True. It’s definitely possible a gun was involved to control the girls. The mixture of shock and fear from having a gun pointed at you when just a few minutes before you were enjoying time with a friend, well, that would be enough to stop anyone in their tracks.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

I can't believe it's been ten months since the sketch was released... we were so hopeful that something big was coming.

I still see the search being called off as a matter of debate; my two cents — a search will always put the safety of its participants as its top priority. LE has to be careful that volunteers are not injured on their watch. It was pitch black in a wooded area around a creek that night — a recipe for somebody getting tripped up, falling, or worse. I will never consider it strange that the police halted the search until morning. MOO.

I keep going back to that one commentator on HLN (retired LE or atty, can't remember) who said after the press conference where the sketch was released that if nothing came of it in a few weeks, she'd take the press conference as a complete hail mary. Well, here we are.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I pretty much agree with you. Plus, the fact is there were people...friends, family, etc...who remained there all night searching as best they could.
LE’s decision to not aid in those efforts whatever their reasoning was not their finest hour for sure. The thing that bothers me the most about LE stopping their search was when they said the girls were not in any danger. We all know after the fact that the girls were beyond help at that point but at the time one of the main thoughts was that the girls were hurt or lost but under that thought they called the search off even though the girls were lightly dressed and temperatures were dropping. I think that puts them in danger.

I don’t think it’s terribly “out there” to suspend ground searches at night. But my question is, why not do an aerial search? Call in a helicopter from state police?

I know at that point they didn’t suspect foul play, but if they were concerned about the safety of the searchers in the woods at night with the temp dropping, wouldn’t that make finding the girls more urgent as well? Is it too complicated to call in a helicopter from the state police to help? It just seems so bizarre that they called it a night for safety reasons, all the while knowing the girls were still out there and possibly injured.

 

[Falling Down]

I can't believe it's been ten months since the sketch was released... we were so hopeful that something big was coming.

I still see the search being called off as a matter of debate; my two cents — a search will always put the safety of its participants as its top priority. LE has to be careful that volunteers are not injured on their watch. It was pitch black in a wooded area around a creek that night — a recipe for somebody getting tripped up, falling, or worse. I will never consider it strange that the police halted the search until morning. MOO.

Even experienced and trained searchers are in danger in those conditions.

 

[Falling Down]

I somewhat agree with you on this. Had it ever been stated whether or not a police presence was left on the scene that night? In an official capacity? I imagine there may have been some off duty that stayed on with the unofficial search that continued afterwards, but I do wonder if any on duty uniformed officers maintained any type of presence.
Not sure the thought takes me anywhere specific, but I believe the answer would provide some additional insight to LE’s thinking that evening.

I don't know if there were any LE in the general area overnight. Was there any need? They were under the impression the girls were not in danger.

An Amber Alert related to a murder in Gary that evening kept a lot of LE busy, so some resources in NW Indiana were being expended on that, too. I'd imagine ISP was stretched a little thin in that region that night.

JMO

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I don't know if there were any LE in the general area overnight. Was there any need? They were under the impression the girls were not in danger.

An Amber Alert related to a murder in Gary that evening kept a lot of LE busy, so some resources in NW Indiana were being expended on that, too. I'd imagine ISP was stretched a little thin in that region that night.

JMO

I mean, they may not have thought they were in danger in terms of a violent attack by another person, but doesn’t it seem kind of strange for them to leave when they thought the girls may have been injured? Let’s say one or both of them fell and had internal injuries—their lives would still have been in danger.

 

[What if...]

I would say, zero evidence they knew him. He might have known them, or about them. He had to factor in their fierce loyalty to one another. Either way. Even an SK, although a non-local SK risks less if one runs away.

But think of this. If the family says, one of the girls could have run away but did not abandon the friend, they might have some proof to it in the audio. A SK not knowing the girls takes his risk...but one could run away, yell, scream, set up Delphi on the chase for him, make the day spoiled. Either way, be a witness. So either he knows how to abduct a kill a group -and these are not Lyric and Elizabeth, mere children... these are athletic teenagers, and he does limp, to me, at least - so he has been trained in this thing; or, he knows that neither of the girls will run for her life. And this, to me, is the most tricky point, because IRL, we can not predict human behavior. It is emotional. (Logically, it would have been better if one girl ran away, because another was doomed anyhow).

And how does one know what emotion would prevail? Why not plain old fear?

If I thought that some major international cartel with hired assassins operated in Delphi, I’d blame it on them. But I doubt, because the money for this is not in Delphi, or at least doesn’t seem so. However the killing is too well-organized, everyone hints at someone local or familiar with the locality and yet no one knows the person; from very thin hints I can guess there are sadistic elements (typical for a SK), and yet they probably can’t link them to similar MO in other places, and on top of it, the person knows how to leave no DNA! How? Or the DNA was there, but can be easily explained (I don’t think so, for many reasons). And I can’t believe he is young from the video or the audio, and yet older people don’t know that much about DNA, and also, it was pre-GK case age. (GK’s case was published when? 2018?).

And nothing leaks out, and it is the strangest thing. DC doesn’t talk...well, usually the people talk. Here, nada. Fear.

If it were a random SK from the Packers, people would scream about the details out of fear. Here, it is as if they are scared that someone will come for their child if they talk.

How can we reconstruct it all?

Or the people of Delphi really just have no clue. Which would probably be the case if it’s a semi-local or non-local random killer. JMO

 

[Ozoner]

Snipped by me for focus.



I think this is where the theory of two people comes in. To me, it seems fairly likely that two people were involved. I would think that unless one of the girls was somehow incapacitated, she would have ran when her friend was being attacked. Or at least screamed. The family says they were loyal to one another, and I have no doubt that was the case, but at a certain point I do believe self preservation instincts would kick in, especially knowing there was nothing she could do for her friend unless she called/ran for help. So IMO, I would not be surprised if one girl was either knocked unconscious while the other was attacked or there was two people involved—one who held one of the girls back while the other was attacked. It just doesn’t make sense to me any other way. MOO.

Generally speaking, fear makes most people cooperate with an armed criminal. People tell themselves that they'll be OK if they cooperate. Very few people run away. Very few people fight back.

 

[IceIce9]

I don't know if there were any LE in the general area overnight. Was there any need? They were under the impression the girls were not in danger.

An Amber Alert related to a murder in Gary that evening kept a lot of LE busy, so some resources in NW Indiana were being expended on that, too. I'd imagine ISP was stretched a little thin in that region that night.

JMO

The amber alert in Gary might have kept ISP busy but should not have affected local Delphi LE or Carroll County.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don’t think it would be terribly hard to control a 13 and 14 year old that have been surprised by someone presumably with a weapon of some sort. My own opinion is he didn’t control them very long. I think they made a run for it trying to get across the creek away from the guy. He caught them and killed them in a rage. That explains how they were controlled(they weren’t really), why they are on the opposite side of the creek, why it was all over so quickly. Of course there’s plenty other questions with no answers. Just my thoughts.

 

[Fizzle]

I have no doubt that one man could have controlled both girls. He likely had a gun and/or one of the girls was incapacitated right away. He didn't have to be young or in perfect shape or have an accomplice, in my opinion. Based on limited knowledge, people tend to be compliant in this type of situation (e.g., gun in your face), at least at first. I can't imagine the shock and fear... I'd bet that they were trying to assess the situation and were in disbelief that this was actually happening. They might have not known instantly that this guy was going to murder them. They might have thought he was going to rob them or something and they could have been trying to stay calm so that he stayed calm and just let them go?

 

[gregjrichards]

I understand the case is going to be featured on the Dr Oz show tomorrow. If anyone is able to watch or record it can you please advise if there is any new information given. I’m not in the U.S so can’t watch it. Thank you in advance.

 

[JnRyan]

I don’t think it would be terribly hard to control a 13 and 14 year old that have been surprised by someone presumably with a weapon of some sort. My own opinion is he didn’t control them very long. I think they made a run for it trying to get across the creek away from the guy. He caught them and killed them in a rage. That explains how they were controlled(they weren’t really), why they are on the opposite side of the creek, why it was all over so quickly. Of course there’s plenty other questions with no answers. Just my thoughts.

I've thought about this and thought it is a very likely scenario that he had to chase the girls across the creek. Where I have a problem with it is the possibility the girls would likely be screaming. While I don't believe it is likely anyone would be alarmed by the girls screaming as they might think they were just playing, someone still might have heard them. In one of Anthony Greeno's YouTube video they had a woman scream two or three times down near the creek crossing and they could hear her up on the trail. No where have I read where any person on the trail that day heard screaming.

 

[SkylarSid]

I understand the case is going to be featured on the Dr Oz show tomorrow. If anyone is able to watch or record it can you please advise if there is any new information given. I’m not in the U.S so can’t watch it. Thank you in advance.

Thanks for telling us. I set it up to record. You might be able to get it through the Fox site after it airs?

 

[JenniD]

Family of Delphi murder victims to appear on Dr. Oz Show

 

[JenniD]

As I listened to the Dr Oz trailer and heard Libby’s grandmother talk about the first photo being that of an older man it occurred to me that since I had not followed this case until last April’s PC that my perception of the still photo is different from others. I had not seen the first sketch so when I look at the still photo I don’t see any older man. Guess it shows how much we were influenced by the first sketch

 

[JenniD]

Dbm

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

Family of Delphi murder victims to appear on Dr. Oz Show

Thanks for posting this.

Looks like they’re still operating under the belief that BG is connected to Delphi.

Also, does anyone get the sense the families are beginning to get just a bit frustrated with LE’s handling of the case? I’m basing this on BP’s comment about the sketch and Libby’s mom’s appearance on Fox News this most recent anniversary. Maybe they’ve always been frustrated, but I don’t recall them being vocal about their frustrations in previous interviews.

 

[JDough]

True Crime: What Happened to the Girls on the Bridge?