Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[ashleyk07]

Maybe Tulsa and north? We've been to Tulsa 2 times for a week each time.

I live in the Edmond area but grew up near the Texas border. Even that far South we used “Guys” all the time. The further North you go the less of the drawl you hear though.

 

[Charlot123]

No DIRECT shipyard connection to IN. However, the one Navy facility you might be thinking of is Crane IN and the primary command there, but not the only command, is Naval Surface Warfare Center - Crane Division. And they are a subordinate command of Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA), the same command the shipyards used to come under. They develop future weapons systems while shipyards work on currently used systems, but there is a crossing of personnel between the two.

I simply wonder if there is a system that would allow rotation of workers in Indiana? Whether future or currently used? Something where workers would be staying and working for 3-4 months, and then going back home? This is a good chance for the workers to know the state, especially if they are hiking. Because the guy could be anything, including military or technical personnel.

ETA: I googled shipyards in Illinois and found a large one, on the border with Indiana. Don’t know what it is, but geographically, could suit as well. (Checking other states, too. Very interesting. Interesting history of Minnesota shipyards in WWII, unrelated to Delphi).

 

[Charlot123]

clipped quote

DTH:
Can you put like a percentage on how much of the story you feel you understand now?
DC:
Umm, I hadn’t thought about that before.
[Pause]
You know, that’s a tough question. That’s a tough question.

We know a lot about before and after, but there’s a lot about the middle we don’t know. So, I would say two-thirds and you put a third in the middle. It makes the beginning and the end. It makes sense.

The way I interpret it, DC knows what happened between BG and the girls on the bridge (from the audio), then the girls were abducted (persuaded) to get in the car and driven away (to the shack?); in the meantime, DG’s call interrupted the recording, so the details of the murders DC don’t know (maybe doesn’t know all the participants either). He guessed how the girls were brought back under the bridge and, as one of early newspapers said, “dumped” at what is now called the CS.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

More from the same:

Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders

DC:
Ya know, that’s a good question. I don’t know.
It would be speculative; nobody knows right now. I don’t know. Gosh, I hope we can ask him one day, and I hope he’ll tell us and then be free.

What does “be free” mean? Unburden his soul? Or, like I think, choose not to go through the process?

 

[cujenn81]

I don’t think we know exactly what LE considers the “initial engagement” but it could be Libby capturing the suspect by video. LE have consistently said they’re missing one piece of the puzzle, indeed what occurred prior to the “initial engagement” with the (as yet) unidentified killer might be information in the tip which they hope to receive, especially if it connects with other evidence they’re now aware of.

I figured the missing piece was whatever happened to the girls between the video ending and the bodies being found. Like Carter said — they know a lot about the before and after but not the middle.

But then again... LE could have easily put those pieces together just by looking at the activity on Libby’s phone prior to the murders and then the evidence collected at the crime scene. So, I guess I don’t really know. The missing piece could very well be what may have occurred before the initial engagement.

 

[Andreee]

dbm

 

[Memphis2020]

clipped quote



The way I interpret it, DC knows what happened between BG and the girls on the bridge (from the audio), then the girls were abducted (persuaded) to get in the car and driven away (to the shack?); in the meantime, DG’s call interrupted the recording, so the details of the murders DC don’t know (maybe doesn’t know all the participants either). He guessed how the girls were brought back under the bridge and, as one of early newspapers said, “dumped” at what is now called the CS.

MOO

What car? Y'all don't think they were killed on that property? Really? Lots of hiding places on a farm surrounded by woods.

 

[Memphis2020]

That place was crawling with cops and volunteers. I don't understand or believe that they were there overnight. That close to the bridge? However, there are a lot of trails in proximity and it seems like a lot of area was open access. I always go back to fence lines in my mind...Not sure why

 

[stattlich1]

One of the few things LE has consistently said, never backtracked on, and never felt needed to be clarified, is the girls were killed where they were found.

I too, see no reason to not believe this. So, the killer(s) get the girls in the car, drive 10 minutes or so to the cemetery and force them down the hill to where their bodies were found.

Who knows, right? It's all speculation.

I have read of the little traveled road that passes Delphi Cemetery, and that when one is parked at the rear thereof, the vehicle can not be seen from that road.

It provides rather easy access to the very remote CS area.

It also solves the ease of escape issue, the ability to drive right out of there without being seen by anyone on the trails.

Say the video of BG is taken, then the phone is pocketed, but left on. The recording tells the story of abduction, but may also be silent. Maybe the girls were quickly gagged in the car. Then, they get out of the car at the cemetery, in to the woods, and 'guys' 'down the hill' is said at that spot, and NOT at the end of the bridge.

Then there is the notion of the dogs. Search and rescue dogs. Surely they would hit on the girls scent at the end of that bridge. They either lost that scent at the bottom of that hill on that driveway, or they lost it at the creek. Maybe this explains the answer of why the searchers didn't find the girls that night, didn't think to cross the creek, because they knew the girls scent disappeared on that driveway?

This is why I've asked, is there definitive proof they ever crossed that creek?

Further, if a dog was there, and followed a scent to the creek, does one not think surely a trained searcher would have crossed?

All speculation.

 

[Yemelyan]

I too, see no reason to not believe this. So, the killer(s) get the girls in the car, drive 10 minutes or so to the cemetery and force them down the hill to where their bodies were found.

Who knows, right? It's all speculation.

I have read of the little traveled road that passes Delphi Cemetery, and that when one is parked at the rear thereof, the vehicle can not be seen from that road.

It provides rather easy access to the very remote CS area.

It also solves the ease of escape issue, the ability to drive right out of there without being seen by anyone on the trails.

Say the video of BG is taken, then the phone is pocketed, but left on. The recording tells the story of abduction, but may also be silent. Maybe the girls were quickly gagged in the car. Then, they get out of the car at the cemetery, in to the woods, and 'guys' 'down the hill' is said at that spot, and NOT at the end of the bridge.

Then there is the notion of the dogs. Search and rescue dogs. Surely they would hit on the girls scent at the end of that bridge. They either lost that scent at the bottom of that hill on that driveway, or they lost it at the creek. Maybe this explains the answer of why the searchers didn't find the girls that night, didn't think to cross the creek, because they knew the girls scent disappeared on that driveway?

This is why I've asked, is there definitive proof they ever crossed that creek?

Further, if a dog was there, and followed a scent to the creek, does one not think surely a trained searcher would have crossed?

All speculation.

Once they were in a car, in your speculation, they could have been taken anywhere. Potentially even to a murder/disposal site where they would've been much more hard to find (or, to a place that was much easier to find, if display was what the offender had in mind). So why do you think, to that particular place where they were killed and ultimately found? The abduction site where the victim is taken is almost always more random (being wrapped up in opportunity) than the murder or disposal site, which can be quite planned out.

 

[stattlich1]

Once they were in a car, in your speculation, they could have been taken anywhere. Potentially even to a murder/disposal site where they would've been much more hard to find (or, to a place that was much easier to find, if display was what the offender had in mind). So why do you think, to that particular place where they were killed and ultimately found? The abduction site where the victim is taken is almost always more random (being wrapped up in opportunity) than the murder or disposal site, which can be quite planned out.

I get it. It's all speculation.

The actual murder site could have been prepared in advance. It may have simply been familiar to the murderer. The killer may not have had any desire to cross a creek to commit the crime. Maybe simply access to the site from that cemetery provided ease of escape, unseen. Possibly he wanted the girls to be found, eventually.

In light of the crime being unsolved, and for me personally, in terms of the statement that the youtube videos all got it wrong, I began to speculate on what alternative scenarios may have transpired. Speculate, being the key word.

For example, I've heard the question, 'why did nobody notice the wet pants' on the killer? Well, maybe because he was gone from the murder scene and never even crossed that creek. Maybe he never backtracked to the trails after the crime.

Alternative theories, for me, often revolve around two premises.

One, the girls were targeted in some way, one or the other or both of them, and the killer was aware of their visit to the bridge that day, or at minimum suspected such. The murder being revenge, or some other reason, say, to cover up other nefarious crimes of the killer.

Two, the girls were victims of a killer who had been laying in wait at that bridge site, for a victim, any victim, and the girls were at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

In either case, it seems to me, the killer(s) was/were somewhat familiar with the territory there.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I too, see no reason to not believe this. So, the killer(s) get the girls in the car, drive 10 minutes or so to the cemetery and force them down the hill to where their bodies were found.

Who knows, right? It's all speculation.

I have read of the little traveled road that passes Delphi Cemetery, and that when one is parked at the rear thereof, the vehicle can not be seen from that road.

It provides rather easy access to the very remote CS area.

It also solves the ease of escape issue, the ability to drive right out of there without being seen by anyone on the trails.

Say the video of BG is taken, then the phone is pocketed, but left on. The recording tells the story of abduction, but may also be silent. Maybe the girls were quickly gagged in the car. Then, they get out of the car at the cemetery, in to the woods, and 'guys' 'down the hill' is said at that spot, and NOT at the end of the bridge.

Then there is the notion of the dogs. Search and rescue dogs. Surely they would hit on the girls scent at the end of that bridge. They either lost that scent at the bottom of that hill on that driveway, or they lost it at the creek. Maybe this explains the answer of why the searchers didn't find the girls that night, didn't think to cross the creek, because they knew the girls scent disappeared on that driveway?

This is why I've asked, is there definitive proof they ever crossed that creek?

Further, if a dog was there, and followed a scent to the creek, does one not think surely a trained searcher would have crossed?

All speculation.

All we’ve got is speculation, no doubt about that. I think the only proof we have they crossed the creek is 1) LE stated at some point that they crossed the creek. One of their rare moments of clarity. Don’t ask me to cite it, because I can’t but I remember it because up until that moment I couldn’t imagine how they got to the other side of the creek. I thought the killer must have walked them back across the bridge, and was very surprised when LE said that they had gone through the creek. 2) One of Libby’s shoes was found right before their bodies were spotted, near the bank of the creek. I believe it was on the side opposite where their bodies were found.
If I remember correctly, the search dogs didn’t arrive until the second day, the day they found them and the girls had been found before the dogs were ever really out there searching. Somebody please correct that if I’m remembering wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

All we’ve got is speculation, no doubt about that. I think the only proof we have they crossed the creek is 1) LE stated at some point that they crossed the creek. One of their rare moments of clarity. Don’t ask me to cite it, because I can’t but I remember it because up until that moment I couldn’t imagine how they got to the other side of the creek. I thought the killer must have walked them back across the bridge, and was very surprised when LE said that they had gone through the creek. 2) One of Libby’s shoes was found right before their bodies were spotted, near the bank of the creek. I believe it was on the side opposite where their bodies were found.
If I remember correctly, the search dogs didn’t arrive until the second day, the day they found them and the girls had been found before the dogs were ever really out there searching. Somebody please correct that if I’m remembering wrong.

Yes during one of LEs interviews they stated the girls crossed the creek but it’s been so long since that’s been debated, I no longer recall which interview. LE also knows the murders occurred very soon after Libby captured the killer on video.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[Charlot123]

.

Once they were in a car, in your speculation, they could have been taken anywhere. Potentially even to a murder/disposal site where they would've been much more hard to find (or, to a place that was much easier to find, if display was what the offender had in mind). So why do you think, to that particular place where they were killed and ultimately found? The abduction site where the victim is taken is almost always more random (being wrapped up in opportunity) than the murder or disposal site, which can be quite planned out.

I think they were killed elsewhere, and then, as one of the first articles said, “dumped” at RL’s place. “Dumped” is a very odd word. MOO impression, LE have not offered us official version yet, anyhow.

I hope we shall find out.

Keep in mind, as long as there is no official version of the events, we are at liberty to imagine how it was. And LE says one thing, that the person is somehow connected to Delphi. If so, and we are not following any possible versions, any scenarios, we might oversee someone’s “shack” nearby. LE searched someone’s property at the beginning, right? Why, if they were so sure that everything happened down the hill on RL’s property? Why the search at Bicycle road?

 

[Charlot123]

What car? Y'all don't think they were killed on that property? Really? Lots of hiding places on a farm surrounded by woods.

We don’t know if the killer intended to hide them. Maybe the opposite, to send a message? Who knows? We don’t have any official description of the CS.

 

[Charlot123]

Every question you have posed here, I too have posed in my own mind.

Were the girls actually murdered where they were found? Maybe not.
Were they abducted, taken somewhere, and returned after dark, or in the wee hours of the morning, to the crime scene?
Did more than one thing occur that day, something on the bridge, maybe something else, below the bridge, maybe 'down the hill' is a completely different 'down the hill' than that hill at the end of that bridge?

And then the report of others being there that day? And nary a sound heard? Nothing. Not a gunshot. Not a shout. Not a scream. Nada. Nothing.
Could it be, because the girls went willingly somewhere, with someone they knew?
Was there a car at the bottom of the hill, on that driveway, prepared to depart the scene? Nobody ever reported such. Crazy ain't it? Nobody knows the REAL truth.

Except the killer(s)

And again, there appears to be reference to some kind of separation of some unknown to us, events.

All speculation. What else is there, but....a few facts, and much speculation.

Very good questions.
One more.

Is BG on the bridge even related to the killings, or maybe he is a random passerby? I don’t know anymore.

 

[MistyWaters]

.


I think they were killed elsewhere, and then, as one of the first articles said, “dumped” at RL’s place. “Dumped” is a very odd word. MOO impression, LE have not offered us official version yet, anyhow.

I hope we shall find out.

Keep in mind, as long as there is no official version of the events, we are at liberty to imagine how it was. And LE says one thing, that the person is somehow connected to Delphi. If so, and we are not following any possible versions, any scenarios, we might oversee someone’s “shack” nearby. LE searched someone’s property at the beginning, right? Why, if they were so sure that everything happened down the hill on RL’s property? Why the search at Bicycle road?

Maybe because LE was looking for evidence a suspect had camped out in outbuildings prior to the murders which connected to the initial theory the suspect either hitchhiked or walked along the highway leaving Delphi that same day?

I don’t recall any media reports containing an utterly cold and thoughtless quote by LE indicating the bodies were “dumped” at RLs place. Do you have a link?

 

[sunshineray]

Every question you have posed here, I too have posed in my own mind.

Were the girls actually murdered where they were found? Maybe not.
Were they abducted, taken somewhere, and returned after dark, or in the wee hours of the morning, to the crime scene?
Did more than one thing occur that day, something on the bridge, maybe something else, below the bridge, maybe 'down the hill' is a completely different 'down the hill' than that hill at the end of that bridge?

And then the report of others being there that day? And nary a sound heard? Nothing. Not a gunshot. Not a shout. Not a scream. Nada. Nothing.
Could it be, because the girls went willingly somewhere, with someone they knew?
Was there a car at the bottom of the hill, on that driveway, prepared to depart the scene? Nobody ever reported such. Crazy ain't it? Nobody knows the REAL truth.

Except the killer(s)

And again, there appears to be reference to some kind of separation of some unknown to us, events.

All speculation. What else is there, but....a few facts, and much speculation.

I don't think the girls were ever taken off site and brought back. Like another poster mentions doing that while people are searching is way too risky. I think the girls may have been concealed in some way, enough to not be visible with a flashlight at night. Searchers were looking for colorful clothes or other human tones and probably not focusing much on ground cover.

 

[sunshineray]

clipped quote



The way I interpret it, DC knows what happened between BG and the girls on the bridge (from the audio), then the girls were abducted (persuaded) to get in the car and driven away (to the shack?); in the meantime, DG’s call interrupted the recording, so the details of the murders DC don’t know (maybe doesn’t know all the participants either). He guessed how the girls were brought back under the bridge and, as one of early newspapers said, “dumped” at what is now called the CS.

MOO

How do you think he dumped their bodies at the crime scene? what was his approach, though the water? Thru RL's property? I just don't see how or why, with people milling all about searching, he would chance it. Why not just drop the bodies off in another wooded area well away from the search?

 

[carbuff]

I do not think he is a local. The voice sample is so small that if I were an investigator in this case and someone called in a tip saying they could identify someone from that short of a recording I would be skeptical.

My opinion is that he is not local, with local being defined as Delphi or the surrounding counties. I also think he is not young. I think he is over 50.

In my opinion, that is probably why it is taking so long to find this guy. Everyone is looking in the wrong place based on false information. I know we have to let it all work out and see what comes of the case, but I would be surprised if the killer in this case ends up being a young guy who lives in the local area.

I meant "local" as in "that part of the midwest," in relation to accents and states, not "local" in relation to the crime. Sorry, should have phrased that more clearly.