Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Tricia]

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[Yemelyan]

IMO I think the change of direction came after cleaning up and listening to the phone audio and realizing there was more then 1 male present.

Just trying to understand your theory...so at the April 2019 press conference, when they released the "change of direction" sketch and the new "guys..." part of the audio, you're thinking that "guys" and "down the hill" are said by two different males? Why then would they have stressed "this is one person speaking" in the press conference? What would be the benefit to misrepresenting that piece of information?

Or is your theory that "guys...down the hill" was one person talking but somewhere in the unreleased audio the public hasn't heard is a second male voice? And they are keeping that part a secret for now?

 

[Charlot123]

I can not believe this case has gone ice cold. Particularly since the innocents went to the trouble of videotaping and audio recording their murderer.

It is unbelievably ugly.

The alleged conversation between Jeshua (Jesus) and Pontius Pilates from Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita" comes to mind. Jeshua says that he considers cowardice one of the worst human vices. No, says Pontius Pilates - it is the worst human vice.

 

[Number8]

All of this is MOO...

I think this was BG’s first kill. My guess is that he was probably planning it for a long time, fantasizing about it and waiting for his opportunity. He’s an organized killer, but he likes to take risks. In the Scene of the Crime podcast, it’s mentioned that the Delphi Trails are a very popular spot for young people, and lots of teens go there to hang out. I think he knew that, and went there that day hoping he would catch a young girl (or 2) on their own. I’m sure he was excited to do something so brazen in the middle of the afternoon. He chose high profile victims who would be reported missing almost immediately. He brought tools (it’s clear to me there’s a gun in his pocket which would be the easiest way to coerce two victims) and IMO there are other items on his body. I’m convinced that he is a hunter/fisher, and has explored these trails extensively.

However, despite all his planning, he was sloppy, and left behind some form of DNA/prints, which makes me think it was his first time. LE have been very clear that there is a distinct “signature” (Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online).

I think this is a serial, and he will do it again. JMO - he’s had a significant cooling off period because of the publicity of the case, which poses a threat to him (increased awareness and fear in the area) but also allows him to relive his act. I do *not* think this is a cold case. I think LE is so overwhelmed with tips (literally thousands - renewed when they released the 2nd sketch) that it takes an extensive amount of time to investigate every single one. Unfortunately, he may not be caught until there’s more victims.

IMO the best chance of catching him before he acts again:
(1) investigating previous criminal activity in Delphi or surrounding communities. He didn’t just start with this, there was definitely something leading up to it. Peeping tom, sexual assault or arson incidents, etc.
(2) luring him into reaching out to them and revealing info - a guy like this will definitely be following the investigation (as LE stated in their press conference). He thrives on risk and he may even insert himself into the investigation, comment on news articles or forums (like Israel Keyes supposedly did) or contact LE.
(3) releasing more details which would trigger someone’s memory about their husband, son, brother, etc...and call in a tip.

Like others, he believes he is invincible and it will be his downfall.

 

[Charlot123]

you have to have a reason to hold someone. you have to have an order to collect DNA. they should get an order and swab everyone in town.

find the relative if there is one.

it is my understanding that many SK's follow and learn from other notorious SK's which means he may never pick a place he is connected to to do a killing, or like many others, he plays the county game, or state line game, in an effort to stymy LE from connecting his crimes.

obviously something about the crime scene says this is a local person. how else would they be able to ascertain this?

for me , a possible communication may have happened. the thing for me though is that SK's are liars and may say
just about anything..like when Shannan Gilbert's killer called her sister and told her Shannen was in a house in
Brooklyn ( or something)..

what is it about the crime scene would tell them this is a local resident committing these crimes?

I wish we knew because Delphi is a small town and that is very myopic in focus.

mOO

I think that if the perp is known but not from Delphi per se, one might be in a difficult spot.

Statistically, the chance of NPE is +\~ 2%.

Applying the data to Delphi, we have about 60 people who might be NPE and most don’t know about it. Or, might be guessing.

Dragnet might just generate depression, shock and divorces, and the perp is probably long gone. Such a thing may be only voluntary, and refusal does not imply guilt. MOO

 

[Kimmer]

Just trying to understand your theory...so at the April 2019 press conference, when they released the "change of direction" sketch and the new "guys..." part of the audio, you're thinking that "guys" and "down the hill" are said by two different males? Why then would they have stressed "this is one person speaking" in the press conference? What would be the benefit to misrepresenting that piece of information?

Or is your theory that "guys...down the hill" was one person talking but somewhere in the unreleased audio the public hasn't heard is a second male voice? And they are keeping that part a secret for now?

Yes the second one, I think that it is possible that LE had the tape cleaned up, and was able to hear that there was more than 1 male on the recording and we have not been told that but we have been given both sketches and the "guys down the hill audio".

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes the second one, I think that it is possible that LE had the tape cleaned up, and was able to hear that there was more than 1 male on the recording and we have not been told that but we have been given both sketches and the "guys down the hill audio".

If BG didn't spit in the video, then he might have screamed something (one word perhaps) to a person down at the creek, while turning his head to his left side for seconds. IMO

 

[sandy_80]

didn't paul holes say on a podcast that ( DNA will not solve this case ) ? and that it was very complicated
if he did...then who knows better ?
and if its not usable then how were they ruling ppl out ? or were they at all

 

[wary]

didn't paul holes say on a podcast that ( DNA will not solve this case ) ? and that it was very complicated
if he did...then who knows better ?
and if its not usable then how were they ruling ppl out ? or were they at all

Do you remember how long ago he said it? The genetic genealogy techniques are amazingly recent.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

All of this is MOO...

I think this was BG’s first kill. My guess is that he was probably planning it for a long time, fantasizing about it and waiting for his opportunity. He’s an organized killer, but he likes to take risks. In the Scene of the Crime podcast, it’s mentioned that the Delphi Trails are a very popular spot for young people, and lots of teens go there to hang out. I think he knew that, and went there that day hoping he would catch a young girl (or 2) on their own. I’m sure he was excited to do something so brazen in the middle of the afternoon. He chose high profile victims who would be reported missing almost immediately. He brought tools (it’s clear to me there’s a gun in his pocket which would be the easiest way to coerce two victims) and IMO there are other items on his body. I’m convinced that he is a hunter/fisher, and has explored these trails extensively.

However, despite all his planning, he was sloppy, and left behind some form of DNA/prints, which makes me think it was his first time. LE have been very clear that there is a distinct “signature” (Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online).

I think this is a serial, and he will do it again. JMO - he’s had a significant cooling off period because of the publicity of the case, which poses a threat to him (increased awareness and fear in the area) but also allows him to relive his act. I do *not* think this is a cold case. I think LE is so overwhelmed with tips (literally thousands - renewed when they released the 2nd sketch) that it takes an extensive amount of time to investigate every single one. Unfortunately, he may not be caught until there’s more victims.

IMO the best chance of catching him before he acts again:
(1) investigating previous criminal activity in Delphi or surrounding communities. He didn’t just start with this, there was definitely something leading up to it. Peeping tom, sexual assault or arson incidents, etc.
(2) luring him into reaching out to them and revealing info - a guy like this will definitely be following the investigation (as LE stated in their press conference). He thrives on risk and he may even insert himself into the investigation, comment on news articles or forums (like Israel Keyes supposedly did) or contact LE.
(3) releasing more details which would trigger someone’s memory about their husband, son, brother, etc...and call in a tip.

Like others, he believes he is invincible and it will be his downfall.

Your number 3, releasing more information, is the big key I think. Why, after almost four years LE is so reluctant to do that is really puzzling.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yes the second one, I think that it is possible that LE had the tape cleaned up, and was able to hear that there was more than 1 male on the recording and we have not been told that but we have been given both sketches and the "guys down the hill audio".

That’s possible, and would perhaps explain the new sketch.
Two of the most discouraging statements by LE since the 2019 press conference were made during a couple of those quick little interviews Carter and other senior investigators gave out so freely for awhile. I can’t remember who said what but one statement was that they had narrowed it down to a “couple dozen” POIs. That’s a lot of folks. The second was a statement that LE did not really know if other people were involved that day(That’s probably not a good paraphrasing of what he said, but that’s the gist of it). After hearing these, I realized they were a long way from solving things.

 

[sandy_80]

Do you remember how long ago he said it? The genetic genealogy techniques are amazingly recent.

??
he is the one who started all this genealogy thing ...and the podcast i think was this year or late last year

 

[Justice101]

That makes me wonder what they could release from the crime scene that would be useful to the general public?

probably nothing.. unless it is very unique... like overabundance of ropes or a complex knot used for example.. otherwise, I have no clue what would help spur the general public onto help.

 

[wary]

??
he is the one who started all this genealogy thing ...and the podcast i think was this year or late last year

Thanks! Joke’s on me—that was sure a dumb thing for me to say.

But another possibility is: LE and ex-LE, I assume, lie a lot, for strategic reasons. I just read through a missing person case where LE kept saying that they didn’t have any reason to believe that foul play was involved, when in fact, they knew there’d been foul play, they knew who did it, and exactly why. And that happens over and over.

So, it’s possible, likely, I think, that they simply don’t want to spell out exactly what they have.

 

[sandy_80]

the podcast is scene of the crime I think that covered the case for its first season and featured holes...I think hes a stable on the podcast.. cause he appears on season 2

 

[Charlot123]

didn't paul holes say on a podcast that ( DNA will not solve this case ) ? and that it was very complicated
if he did...then who knows better ?
and if its not usable then how were they ruling ppl out ? or were they at all

What if the fact of the complicated DNA is exactly why the girls were killed?

What if the person has everything, history, life, everything, but he is not who his life story says he is? In spy novels I read about moles, but IRL, I bet, there are different kinds of people living under others’ names.

What if that was the secret that the girls inadvertently found out?

MOO - at this point in time, the story and the lack of activity are so shocking, that any theory goes.

 

[Charlot123]

Thanks! Joke’s on me—that was sure a dumb thing for me to say.

But another possibility is: LE and ex-LE, I assume, lie a lot, for strategic reasons. I just read through a missing person case where LE kept saying that they didn’t have any reason to believe that foul play was involved, when in fact, they knew there’d been foul play, they knew who did it, and exactly why. And that happens over and over.

So, it’s possible, likely, I think, that they simply don’t want to spell out exactly what they have.

Something is rotten in the town of Delphi.

This is not the only case that cries, catch the killer. One wonders if ISP is that bad, if DC doesn’t fit as its head, or there is a bigger corruption net that is impossible to lift.

 

[minazoe]

I think they should stop the anniversary PC and just keep a close eye on the crime area..He may not like the lack of attention.. maybe they have to find a way to provoke him. maybe even lie...see who tries to skip town....see who wanders into the park...

so far nothing has managed to flush him out . or maybe even better non-LE could hold some kind of event at the exact location and see if he attends.

I know these things have been tried. they may have a POI, but cannot make the case.

they need to keep trying. perhaps even releasing false details of the murders, that would likely enrage him. They need to try every trick in the book!

mOO

 

[Charlot123]

I think they should stop the anniversary PC and just keep a close eye on the crime area..He may not like the lack of attention.. maybe they have to find a way to provoke him. maybe even lie...see who tries to skip town....see who wanders into the park...

so far nothing has managed to flush him out . or maybe even better non-LE could hold some kind of event at the exact location and see if he attends.

I know these things have been tried. they may have a POI, but cannot make the case.

they need to keep trying. perhaps even releasing false details of the murders, that would likely enrage him. They need to try every trick in the book!

mOO

Respectfully disagree. The perp is cold, smart, internally distanced, logical. He is scared, but his way of thinking is, “they don’t have enough proof, and unless they do, I am safe”. So he behaves the way he used to. He will be able to self-destruct when he understands that the situation changes, but before it happens, he doesn’t change. MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

Do you remember how long ago he said it? The genetic genealogy techniques are amazingly recent.

No need to feel bad about asking this (re: your other post), I figured you were just asking for a source for the original poster's comment which I think is totally reasonable.

I don't think I've personally seen/heard criminalist Paul Holes say the words "DNA won't solve this" but he did definitely say the Delphi investigators are facing "a tough investigation." That quote comes from this:

‘They Have A Tough Investigation Ahead:' Paul Holes On The Delphi Murders

The big takeaway from this is that at CrimeCon, ISP Sgt. Jerry Holeman (the lead investigator in the Delphi investigation) consulted with Holes and shared some information with him that was not shared with the public at large. Since Holes is known for the use of genetic genealogy, people are assuming that strategy was discussed. We know for sure from some other comments by Holes that they discussed part of the unreleased audio.

This information comes from the podcast co-hosted by Holes, The Murder Squad. It's episode 36, The Freeway Phantom, from 2019. About 40 minutes into the episode, the hosts begin to discuss the Delphi case and Holes explains why some information is always held back in murder cases. However, he says that after investigators shared with him some of the held back information, it's his opinion that there IS information on the unreleased portion of the Delphi audio that could help identify the killer.