Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Yemelyan]

The biggest problem is, there are plenty of copycat cases. I wanted to post one link to a string of cases near a city in Europe (huge time gaps between the killings, attacking couples, certain day of the week, some PM activity, no sexual actions whatsoever but likely, sexual motivation), but i am afraid that even this could be the trigger for somebody. But the ones who can read between the lines....Delphi make me wonder if the killer was copying that European case. The psychological portrait of that alleged killer is interesting.

Bolded by me....

Perhaps an academic question, but how do we know there are plenty of copycat cases? Can we always distinguish copy cats (especially if unapprehended) from a situation where these serial murders are similar just because sexually motivated murderers exhibit predictable patterns of behavior re: fetish/signature development, victimology, etc?

 

[minazoe]

SBBM....

The meaning of salacious is: having or conveying undue or inappropriate interest in sexual matters. Pornographic. Obscene.

Is that really what you meant to say about two young girls? I'm hoping maybe you meant "sensational"....

But in any case, think back to Carter's righteous anger saying "two LITTLE girls" and "NOT how you left them" and you'll see why releasing salacious details will probably never happen. It's a conservative place and it looks like authorities are sensitive about what happened given their ages.

Terrible idea, by the way.

oh yes, perhaps sensational is a better word, but sadly in our world sometimes we need to get the attention of the public ..and perhaps some details would be helpful in creating energy and outrage over these two beautiful girls. This is how any news agency or media sell stories and put pressure on the public and LE to solve cases like this and get murderers off the streets or trails

conservative or not the public should be informed and the public should be outraged.
so while it would be wrong to exploit the girls it would be still be effective to use some information to drive
exposure and interest in the case to a higher level and keep it in the media.

To imply I meant otherwise is simply wrong, it's not that simple and of course it is delicate in all ways as they are children...other children who could be this man's next victims should come first. mOO

 

[news buff]

oh yes, perhaps sensational is a better word, but sadly in our world sometimes we need to get the attention of the public ..and perhaps some details would be helpful in creating energy and outrage over these two beautiful girls. This is how any news agency or media sell stories and put pressure on the public and LE to solve cases like this and get murderers off the streets or trails

conservative or not the public should be informed and the public should be outraged.
so while it would be wrong to exploit the girls it would be still be effective to use some information to drive
exposure and interest in the case to a higher level and keep it in the media.

To imply I meant otherwise is simply wrong, it's not that simple and of course it is delicate in all ways as they are children...other children who could be this man's next victims should come first. mOO

There are enough creepy forums on the internet who are interested in sensational details and exploitation. Perhaps some fresh ideas are needed but respect for these children is of utmost importance.

 

[Yemelyan]

oh yes, perhaps sensational is a better word, but sadly in our world sometimes we need to get the attention of the public ..and perhaps some details would be helpful in creating energy and outrage over these two beautiful girls. This is how any news agency or media sell stories and put pressure on the public and LE to solve cases like this and get murderers off the streets or trails

conservative or not the public should be informed and the public should be outraged.
so while it would be wrong to exploit the girls it would be still be effective to use some information to drive
exposure and interest in the case to a higher level and keep it in the media.

To imply I meant otherwise is simply wrong, it's not that simple and of course it is delicate in all ways as they are children...other children who could be this man's next victims should come first. mOO

Bolded by me....no one is implying you meant otherwise, salacious is the word you chose to use. There's only one way to interpret that as it has a sexual meaning.

But, given their young ages and the victim-friendly nature of this board, I'm glad to hear that maybe you chose the wrong word.

We the public may not be seeing the progress that we wish (doesn't mean it's not taking place behind the scenes), but IMO this case has a lot more traction in the media and a lot more attention from LE than many or even most murder cases.

Anything that might specifically help reveal his identity should be in the mix of LE discussion for release. But I don't think the public needs to hear any new detail just in order to create outrage. JMO

 

[minazoe]

respectfully I disagree, the case is COLD. no-one is giving up the murderer.

And there is no disrespect to the girls or the memory of the girls. I am highly offended by your post, as it seems you still seem to take my meaning in a wrong direction.

Tell the public what happened to them. Release something ..NEW INFO..grab a headline. Renew interest.

Most folks here in Chicago for instance have never heard of the murders, unless they watch Dr. Phil or or Court TV.

it's just not enough. mOO

 

[Matthoughton]

I think the problem with giving out more details is every time they release more on the case, they generate hundreds of new tips. Super fast for them to check what’s real or what isn’t. I’m also assuming they’re expecting whoever to be in touch with LE or him to talk about it at length to people and they’re hoping he’ll slip up. Mainly I assume it’s so they can clear tips efficiently.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think the problem with giving out more details is every time they release more on the case, they generate hundreds of new tips. Super fast for them to check what’s real or what isn’t. I’m also assuming they’re expecting whoever to be in touch with LE or him to talk about it at length to people and they’re hoping he’ll slip up. Mainly I assume it’s so they can clear tips efficiently.

Bingo. This poster gets it.

 

[Matthoughton]

Hmm maybe Netflix/Unsolved mysteries/Crimestoppers if you have that in the USA. It’s just that there’s not much... set in stone detail. And LE still have to keep cards relatively close to there chest to be able to efficiently clear the tips, Although I think they’d mainly be people saying “that’s my neighbour/boss/cousin” and that’s hard to check without expending manpower. Sounds like LE thinks he’s stayed local though so not sure how helpful that would even be. I’m strongly in the opinion SOMEONE knows who that is though.

 

[TTF14]

of course it is delicate in all ways as they are children...other children who could be this man's next victims should come first. mOO

RSBM.

I totally agree. Obviously, everyone wants the memories of Abby and Libby to be respected, but they are unfortunately never coming back and I believe what is of UTMOST importance, even more than the dignity of Abby and Libby (sad to say), is catching this monster to make sure no other young girls are murdered.

 

[MistyWaters]

Possibilities, why no arrest has occurred -

- someone knows who the killer is but is withholding the information from LE.

- nobody has been able to connect a suspect to time, location, or other suspicious behaviour because nobody knows who the killer is.

- or even if LE crossed paths with the killer, he didn’t leave enough evidence to support an arrest or prove he guilty.

- other possibilities why these murders remain unsolved despite 40,000 or more tips and a $230k reward? I can think of any.

Regardless, if LE were to release details of exactly what happened to the girls, how would that suddenly prompt somebody almost four years later to identify the killer? I can’t imagine anybody coming forward - “oh now I remember so-and-so talking about killing those two girls just like that but I guess I must’ve forgotten to send in a tip”.

It’s already been mentioned here several times - once LE release information to the general public everybody is aware if it. So then it becomes impossible for LE to differentiate between somebody who really does know something or was directly involved - and others who are inclined toward providing malicious tips or false confessions. The way I see it, more information released can also be counterproductive to solving this case.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

I think the withholding of info in order to make a case (that is never coming because it's ice cold) , stick, is not working.

the case is COLD

to me it seems like they can release some new aspect of the case without revealing everything, unless they have nothing, or only one thing. or yes maybe it's all so disturbing that they don't out of respect for the family.

maybe thats the story...

at the same time a brutal killer is wandering around thinking whatever he did he's gonna do it again.

and again.

mOO

 

[minazoe]

Possibilities, why no arrest has occurred -

- someone knows who the killer is but is withholding the information from LE.

- nobody has been able to connect a suspect to time, location, or other suspicious behaviour because nobody knows who the killer is.

- or even if LE crossed paths with the killer, he didn’t leave enough evidence to support an arrest or prove he guilty.

- other possibilities why these murders remain unsolved despite 40,000 or more tips and a $230k reward? I can think of any.

Regardless, if LE were to release details of exactly what happened to the girls, how would that suddenly prompt somebody almost four years later to identify the killer? I can’t imagine anybody coming forward - “oh now I remember so-and-so talking about killing those two girls just like that but I guess I must’ve forgotten to send in a tip”.

It’s already been mentioned here several times - once LE release information to the general public everybody is aware if it. So then it becomes impossible for LE to differentiate between somebody who really does know something or was directly involved - and others who are inclined toward providing malicious tips or false confessions. The way I see it, more information released can also be counterproductive to solving this case.

JMO

releasing new info creates new news stories, after the debacle of two sketches, hats, no hats etc..they need new stories. this puts the girls on mainstream television again. This generates leads. Saying the leads are no good or BS or they wouldn't be able to trust a confession is not a good reason in my opinion. mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

LE in this case had over 42,000 tips as of 2019. 42,000!! Realistically, if they had no holdback information to vet these tips against, they would never be able to investigate all of them. They have to have some kind of investigative strategy to yes, know which ones are BS.

Look at the murderer Oba Chandler in Florida. There were 4,000 tips in that case and the right one - with his identity - was submitted twice and LE never found it. It's only through the persistence of the woman who recognized his handwriting (who was his neighbor) that he was finally investigated. That was with 4,000 tips - not 42,000.

The Delphi case is likely similar. Somewhere in the 42,000+ tips is something with a thread that leads to his identity. It's probably from his neighbor, coworker, family member - someone who knows him. It's likely not from someone several states away watching Dr Phil and comparing facebook profiles to the sketches. JMO

They only get one shot to prosecute this offender, which they said they've kept in mind from the beginning. It can take a really long time to develop probable cause and build a case that can be prosecuted successfully. We all wish there was some slam dunk piece of information that ties his identity to the crime and there was an easy way to get it but it's likely it's just way more complicated than that.

 

[JnRyan]

Possibilities, why no arrest has occurred -

- someone knows who the killer is but is withholding the information from LE.

- nobody has been able to connect a suspect to time, location, or other suspicious behaviour because nobody knows who the killer is.

- or even if LE crossed paths with the killer, he didn’t leave enough evidence to support an arrest or prove he guilty.

- other possibilities why these murders remain unsolved despite 40,000 or more tips and a $230k reward? I can think of any.

Regardless, if LE were to release details of exactly what happened to the girls, how would that suddenly prompt somebody almost four years later to identify the killer? I can’t imagine anybody coming forward - “oh now I remember so-and-so talking about killing those two girls just like that but I guess I must’ve forgotten to send in a tip”.

It’s already been mentioned here several times - once LE release information to the general public everybody is aware if it. So then it becomes impossible for LE to differentiate between somebody who really does know something or was directly involved - and others who are inclined toward providing malicious tips or false confessions. The way I see it, more information released can also be counterproductive to solving this case.

JMO

This is really a subset of your first one, but I keep thinking back to the murder of Morgan Harrington in Charlottesville VA in 2009.

Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia

From DNA found on Morgan’s shirt, LE was able to connect the murder to an attempted rape in Fairfax VA in 2005. There was a sketch from that case and LE publicized it. Morgan’s killer was a cab driver in Charlottesville and his co-workers teased him about he looked like the sketch but none of them called in a tip. No one made the connection that Jesse Matthew was probably driving his cab that night. 5 years later Morgan’s killer, Jesse Mathew, abducted, raped and murdered UVA student Hannah Graham in Charlottesville.

Somewhere in Indiana there might be co-workers, customers and/or acquaintances that might be having what they consider harmless fun making jokes about someone who looks like the sketch and that someone might be the killer.

I seriously doubt this killer has told anyone and after almost 4 years no one probably has any recollection of where he was on 13 February 2017. I wouldn’t doubt, though, that somewhere someone looks at the sketch or sketches and says to themself, ‘’That looks a bit like _______. Hmmm, close but not close enough and besides _______ lives here and not in Delphi.”

 

[Peppery]

I think the withholding of info in order to make a case (that is never coming because it's ice cold) , stick, is not working.

the case is COLD

to me it seems like they can release some new aspect of the case without revealing everything, unless they have nothing, or only one thing. or yes maybe it's all so disturbing that they don't out of respect for the family.

maybe thats the story...

at the same time a brutal killer is wandering around thinking whatever he did he's gonna do it again.

and again.

mOO

I agree. I think releasing more of the video or audio would help spark new interest in the case. Im fairly confident they have a few more seconds of him walking or another few words he spoke that might not identify him, but would put this case back in the news spotlight. Nothing that disrespects Abby and Libby obviously, but the best way to respect and honor their memories would be to put this guy away forever, making sure no one else is victimized by him.

I would also be SHOCKED if he ever comes forward or tells anyone details. Possibly he's involved in child or dark web sites where he shared something, but none of those people are likely to come forward either. I highly doubt he ever confesses or pleads guilty or gives any additional info. He doesn't have a conscience. So far we dont have any evidence absolutely connecting him to any other crime or proof he wants recognition.
Maybe that will happen in the future, if he kills again or something changes. We dont know if he's communicated with LE or tried to taunt them. I think that was the goal of the April 2019 PC but it doesn't seem to have worked. IMO

 

[Justice101]

fp;;pwomb

 

[Peppery]

This is really a subset of your first one, but I keep thinking back to the murder of Morgan Harrington in Charlottesville VA in 2009.

Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia

From DNA found on Morgan’s shirt, LE was able to connect the murder to an attempted rape in Fairfax VA in 2005. There was a sketch from that case and LE publicized it. Morgan’s killer was a cab driver in Charlottesville and his co-workers teased him about he looked like the sketch but none of them called in a tip. No one made the connection that Jesse Matthew was probably driving his cab that night. 5 years later Morgan’s killer, Jesse Mathew, abducted, raped and murdered UVA student Hannah Graham in Charlottesville.

Somewhere in Indiana there might be co-workers, customers and/or acquaintances that might be having what they consider harmless fun making jokes about someone who looks like the sketch and that someone might be the killer.

I seriously doubt this killer has told anyone and after almost 4 years no one probably has any recollection of where he was on 13 February 2017. I wouldn’t doubt, though, that somewhere someone looks at the sketch or sketches and says to themself, ‘’That looks a bit like _______. Hmmm, close but not close enough and besides _______ lives here and not in Delphi.”

That one always shocks me when I see the sketch the rape victim helped create and his picture at the time. Its hard to believe not a single person thought...maybe...and called LE just in case.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is really a subset of your first one, but I keep thinking back to the murder of Morgan Harrington in Charlottesville VA in 2009.

Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia

From DNA found on Morgan’s shirt, LE was able to connect the murder to an attempted rape in Fairfax VA in 2005. There was a sketch from that case and LE publicized it. Morgan’s killer was a cab driver in Charlottesville and his co-workers teased him about he looked like the sketch but none of them called in a tip. No one made the connection that Jesse Matthew was probably driving his cab that night. 5 years later Morgan’s killer, Jesse Mathew, abducted, raped and murdered UVA student Hannah Graham in Charlottesville.

Somewhere in Indiana there might be co-workers, customers and/or acquaintances that might be having what they consider harmless fun making jokes about someone who looks like the sketch and that someone might be the killer.

I seriously doubt this killer has told anyone and after almost 4 years no one probably has any recollection of where he was on 13 February 2017. I wouldn’t doubt, though, that somewhere someone looks at the sketch or sketches and says to themself, ‘’That looks a bit like _______. Hmmm, close but not close enough and besides _______ lives here and not in Delphi.”

I agree, and the suspect may bear a strong resemblance to the sketch or the sketch might not accurately depict the facial appearance of suspect at all. Until an arrest and conviction occur, who’s to say.

Just my thoughts - the first sketch wasn’t released until 5 months following the murders, reportedly as tips were beginning to dwindle. But if LE had strong confidence in any witnesses who claimed to have sighted the murderer that day, why didn’t they release a sketch within those first few days as it was quite evident the face of the man on the bridge in the photo was quite blurry, plus looking downward?

Is the release of more evidence required - or has the heavy emphasis on both sketches at different times led potential tipsters astray, if the potential suspect didn’t bear any similarity?

 

[margarita25]

Some random thoughts:

I wish I had something new to contribute. I have zilch. Kudos to all of you who are keeping these threads and discussions going.

I am firmly in the camp there is only one killer, jmo. But then again who knows anything, right?

I cleaned out a closet and have several old computers, devices, that don’t work for whatever reason. On some of them, I have all kinds of sleuthing and files and messages, those which couldn’t be posted here within TOS. I was thinking to myself, how in cold case investigations, when the detectives revisit the case years later, often the perp is somewhere in their early notes. I wonder if anyone here has ever come across the real perp. It would be interesting to know if he turns out to be someone that somebody did indeed take a look at, or if it is someone that nobody has ever came across. I think about how in UIDs, sometimes the victim is someone not ever known previously or appearing on someone’s radar.

Additionally, wrt the discussion about the perp specifically being interested in or targeting pairs: this so something I’ve said before (again nothing new to contribute)- obviously, if there is a dual homicide of two young girls, it requires a comparison to this case, as it is somewhat unique. However, I learned that there are actually other dual homicides over the years, 70’s, 80’s, etc., and in those cases, the perp was not specifically targeting pairs; rather they were victims of opportunity. So, again imo, I don’t think a dual homicide is necessarily a unique MO or interest of the perp, and that if there are other victims, they could be single victims.

 

[Yemelyan]

Additionally, wrt the discussion about the perp specifically being interested in or targeting pairs: this so something I’ve said before (again nothing new to contribute)- obviously, if there is a dual homicide of two young girls, it requires a comparison to this case, as it is somewhat unique. However, I learned that there are actually other dual homicides over the years, 70, 80s, etc., and in those cases, the perp was not specifically targeting pairs; rather they were victims of opportunity. So, again imo, I don’t think a dual homicide is necessarily a unique interest of the perp, and that if there are other victims, they could be single victims.

Respectfully snipped to just this part - absolutely agreed. Thinking that two victims was a necessary part of the crime, based on what is publicly known right now - that's way too narrow of a focus considering how opportunistic these offenders are.