Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Skully]

The only thing I would say about Abby having a phone, is this; why didn't her mother try calling her that day if she had a phone. We know Libby's dad was calling her when they didn't show up. So if Libby did have a phone, she must not have had it that day, or it would have been called to see where they were. So she may or may not have had a phone and if she did, maybe she didn't have it with her and her mom knew that.

 

[Skully]

People have speculated that they were meeting someone, I don't think that. If they were uploading pictures to the Instagram account or Snap Chat, then someone would know they were there if they were following them on the account. That is one way the perp could have know there whereabouts, but LE would have pulled the texts and it would have been there on the phone, a record of communications with the perp. So I don't think they were meeting anyone, I just think he may or may not have know where they were that day. It could have been random in the sense he just happened to be there, or he knew them and figured out where they were because of pics. But I could be wrong, I don't know what condition the phone was in when LE got it. But if the perp knew he had texted or she had texted, that phone would not have been left behind. Also if he is viewing her account, HE KNOWS THERE IS A PHONE.

 

[bigdata]

From all i read re: girls, my thoughts are that they are smart beyond their years..with that said, why would they comply w/“guys..”command with no pushback?..or at least none on released recording..if person unknown to them? IMO, there are different degrees of “knowing someone” from an early teen perspective..those you know well enough to speak w/ or reply to and those who there is familiarity re: seen around before, know face etc, but degree of that relationship never got to the level of communication..IMO they had two options as things got strange on bridge, comply or in some manner flee or make commotion..doesn’t the choice they took indicate some level of familiarity? jmoo

 

[Skully]

I think BG did it before
I think BG looks like the first sketch
BG had a gun to control them
I think BG has a limp or something wrong with the leg or hip
I think LE knows who he is or figured it out - later
I think the second sketch is the possibility that there were 2 guys but they don't know who he is.
I think that when they say that the 2nd sketch guy may look younger, they have an "idea" who he is, but can't prove anything. Can't prove anything with either one of them or they would have an arrest by now. Duh!
So is there DNA? Maybe, but it is not enough to get a full profile.
I only hear one voice, but there could be another voice; but I don't hear that
I think only Libby had a phone with her that day
I still think the potential crime scene had to be checked out before they or he went there.
If there was one guy, I think he passed them coming up from it and turned around.
If there were two guys, then one was at the potential crime scene waiting and the other was boxing them in at the other end.
I don't think the girls were meeting anyone.
I know BG didn't know Libby had a phone, couldn't risk not taking it if he did.
I don't know if it was planned, but if there were 2 guys, it was planned, like an ambush.
Then you have to ask yourself why? Most killings like this are one person doing the killings, not two. Most serial killers work alone.
None of this helps to solve it. And it is just my thoughts about the crime.

 

[Yemelyan]

I know BG didn't know Libby had a phone, couldn't risk not taking it if he did.

Snipped to address this part.

I don't think we can take this assumption as a known fact.

We really have no idea what type of thinking was in the offender's mind at the time. Not all offenders will make perfectly logical decisions.

We don't exactly know how Libby recorded him. At least one reporter said she may have filmed in selfie mode, or perhaps holding the camera by her waist. So I think there's a possibility that he may not have realized he was captured on video and audio.

We know the phone was found "in the vicinity" of the girls' bodies but not exactly what that means. Perhaps it was scattered during a struggle at the crime scene and he looked for it but couldn't find it, perhaps he tried to destroy it completely but failed.

He could have believed cell phones can be tracked even if they are off and left it for that reason.

There are too many unknowns here to state exactly what he would have done about the phone IMO.

 

[Peppery]

Looking at a map, the rail bridge continues for quite a distance over land on the south side. Does anyone know when you can safely get to the ground?

 

[girlfriday]

Some things that give me pause:

AW appears to be wearing her same clothes and having a near identical hairstyle as she's seen pictured in on the day prior (Feb 12/17).

There weren't any witnesses that saw the girls on the trails on Feb 13/17, other than KG dropping them off (as confirmed by MP & BP, in a recent interview, when asked).

Why wasn't the Snapchat photo of AW used by LE (not on the FBI website, etc.)?

These are just my personal thoughts and questions.

Edit: typo

 

[Yemelyan]

Looking at a map, the rail bridge continues for quite a distance over land on the south side. Does anyone know when you can safely get to the ground?

The poster @Awsi Dooger can probably answer this. I remember seeing a photo of the bridge that he took of it going over land at that end. In the particular photos I saw, the bridge was still too high at that vantage point to be safely accessed from the ground by simply dropping down but since he was there in person he might be able to tell you at what distance from the end it could be.

 

[Skully]

BG's head is down when the photo is taken, we can see that. So it is entirely possible he didn't know she had the phone. And when he is recorded on her phone, I think it is in her pocket or someplace on her body hidden because at that point she knows they are in trouble, but she can't dial 911. If she could there would be a recording of some of this for LE, they would have known what was happening sooner. Of course she may not have thought of it, out of fear, you just don't think stuff. It doesn't matter at this point, they got the phone, they have the video, so really it is a mute point.

 

[Yemelyan]

Some things that give me pause:

AW appears to be wearing her same clothes and having a near identical hairstyle as she's seen pictured in on the day prior (Feb 12/17).

There weren't any witnesses that saw the girls on the trails on Feb 13/17, other than KG dropping them off (as confirmed by MP & BP, in a recent interview, when asked).

Why wasn't the Snapchat photo of AW used by LE (not on the FBI website, etc.)?

These are just my personal thoughts and questions.

Edit: typo

I don't follow. What are you trying to say, that the girls were never really on the trails on February 13th and were actually killed a different day?

 

[Yemelyan]

BG's head is down when the photo is taken, we can see that. So it is entirely possible he didn't know she had the phone. And when he is recorded on her phone, I think it is in her pocket or someplace on her body hidden because at that point she knows they are in trouble, but she can't dial 911. If she could there would be a recording of some of this for LE, they would have known what was happening sooner. Of course she may not have thought of it, out of fear, you just don't think stuff. It doesn't matter at this point, they got the phone, they have the video, so really it is a mute point.

Yes, it is a moot point for us (the public) because we don't know what else was and was not at the crime scene. For investigators who have processed the scene and have seen the video with their own eyes, it may be perfectly obvious why the phone was left behind. I hope one day we know.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

People have speculated that they were meeting someone, I don't think that. If they were uploading pictures to the Instagram account or Snap Chat, then someone would know they were there if they were following them on the account. That is one way the perp could have know there whereabouts, but LE would have pulled the texts and it would have been there on the phone, a record of communications with the perp. So I don't think they were meeting anyone, I just think he may or may not have know where they were that day. It could have been random in the sense he just happened to be there, or he knew them and figured out where they were because of pics. But I could be wrong, I don't know what condition the phone was in when LE got it. But if the perp knew he had texted or she had texted, that phone would not have been left behind. Also if he is viewing her account, HE KNOWS THERE IS A PHONE.

What do you make of Sgt. Holman saying none of us sleuths have the story right of how this incident occurred? All I can think of different is if the girls followed BG to see what he was doing and he then ambushed them. Can you or anyone else think of any other possible scenario that is the opposite of what we all discuss all the time?

 

[Skully]

What do you make of Sgt. Holman saying none of us sleuths have the story right of how this incident occurred? All I can think of different is if the girls followed BG to see what he was doing and he then ambushed them. Can you or anyone else think of any other possible scenario that is the opposite of what we all discuss all the time?

I only have the same information that you all do. Just from what I see, it looks like 2 girls were on a bridge, 1 or 2 guys forced them to a place and killed them. I can't think of another way this went down. We have pictures that Libby uploaded, we have voice recordings that LE released, and we have a crime scene. So unless they were killed somewhere else, and I don't believe that, only because that makes no sense to me, but it is possible but not probable, and put there, I just don't think it happened another way. But once again, you don't know what they found at the scene, was there something there that didn't belong? Was there an indication that there wasn't enough blood to say they were killed there? You know when a body has been moved, there are "clues" forensic clues that tell you that.

 

[minazoe]

you guys really cleared up for me the issue I was having with the girls "lingering" at the end of the bridge, as though waiting for someone. It never occurred to me that they were waiting for BG to clear the bridge. that kind of changes my perspective. mOO

 

[bigdata]

Some things that give me pause:

AW appears to be wearing her same clothes and having a near identical hairstyle as she's seen pictured in on the day prior (Feb 12/17).

There weren't any witnesses that saw the girls on the trails on Feb 13/17, other than KG dropping them off (as confirmed by MP & BP, in a recent interview, when asked).

Why wasn't the Snapchat photo of AW used by LE (not on the FBI website, etc.)?

These are just my personal thoughts and questions.

Edit: typo

Curious why AW’s appearance is cause for concern, please expand.

 

[minazoe]

In news this morning a guy with a pedo website was arrested after flying to Virginia to pick up a twelve year old girl and fly her back to LA. He actually put a wig on this child and had her pretend to be disabled in order to get her on the plane.

he secretly groomed the girl for months on social media. shows the lengths these sick men will go to indulge themselves.

mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I only have the same information that you all do. Just from what I see, it looks like 2 girls were on a bridge, 1 or 2 guys forced them to a place and killed them. I can't think of another way this went down. We have pictures that Libby uploaded, we have voice recordings that LE released, and we have a crime scene. So unless they were killed somewhere else, and I don't believe that, only because that makes no sense to me, but it is possible but not probable, and put there, I just don't think it happened another way. But once again, you don't know what they found at the scene, was there something there that didn't belong? Was there an indication that there wasn't enough blood to say they were killed there? You know when a body has been moved, there are "clues" forensic clues that tell you that.

The idea that the girls were killed somewhere else and moved comes up over and over again on this board. The last time it was discussed at length was just a few weeks ago on pages 38-40 of this very thread (posts #759-791 or so) if you want to see what was discussed.

 

[somequestions]

Great question!

The sequence that took place has probably been a topic of almost 100 of these threads and it’s still a puzzler.

ETA - I’ve had many different thoughts as time passes but here’s another one that’s a little different. -
BG appears from what looks like nowhere at the far end of the bridge and starts walking along it toward the girls who are midway taking photos, idle chatting etc. The bridge is too narrow to safely pass, especially by a stranger, so the girls backtrack off the bridge and BG walks on by, heading toward the trail system. They think that’s the last they’ll see of him. The girls once again go back onto the bridge and proceed to take more photos.

But soon again he appears at the entrance to the bridge and he’s begun to formulate a plan because he knows he’ll cause them to walk right to the end in order to allow him to pass by. They do exactly that, walk off the bridge, even though they didn’t intend to walk the full length. The “girl talk” and mention of him pertains to annoyance rather than fear.

So they wait for him to keep on walking on by, exiting off the bridge back to wherever he came from but that’s not what happens. When he says the word “guys” it’s his way of getting their attention considering both the girls were probably ignoring him. This is only my speculation.

I think until we have more information anything is possible. However, one thing I thought was kind of strange was that from the information about the audio, it was said that Abby and Libby were talking about things that girls talk about. So they were not concerned about the man on the bridge at that point?

Does this mean that Libby turned on her audio/video before they were even aware of this man on the bridge? Then in the course of their conversation they realize this man is walking towards them on the Monon High Bridge so Libby films him because she thinks it is strange he is walking towards them as if he is going to try to pass them while they are all still walking in the same direction on the bridge?

So she gets off and while waiting for Abby who the killer is gaining on, turns around and quickly get a video shot before putting her phone in her pocket and waiting for Abby?

So maybe this explains the 26 minute gap between the 2:07 pm photo of Abby and the information that the video/audio of the suspect began at 2:33 pm. The police are omitting the time on the audio recording where the girls talked about girl stuff?

So this case leaves you with a lot of questions that are probably not going to be answered until it is solved.

 

[Skully]

I thought I read or heard that LE was pretty certain that they were killed where they were found. But as many know, how much blood at the scene, fluids, (I don't want to be too graphic) but you know. Also you are laying let's say on your back, the blood pools to that area, so you can see the darken tissue. If someone moves the body, they can tell, don't ask me how, because I am not an M.E. But they know.

 

[MistyWaters]

What do you make of Sgt. Holman saying none of us sleuths have the story right of how this incident occurred? All I can think of different is if the girls followed BG to see what he was doing and he then ambushed them. Can you or anyone else think of any other possible scenario that is the opposite of what we all discuss all the time?

I think what he’s saying is this real life case is not going to be solved through amateur youtube re-enactments with regard to their possible actions and movements prior to the murders. Apparently some of these videos used real people acting out the murders, very disgusting IMO.