Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[JnRyan]

Usable fingerprints from an outside crime scene where victims were exposed to overnight winter temps is interesting. I've read lifting fingerprints from skin and fabrics is possible but difficult and it's nearly impossible with organic materials such as leaves or branches etc.

No other audio capturing the killer's voice except those 4 words is unfortunate to hear. With no more audio I would think trying to match it to any suspect couldn't be very accurately done.

LE doesn't factually know the route the Delphi killer took leaving an the outdoor crime scene. I'm guessing there was too much ground cover, fallen leaves to track a man's path and killer didn't leave any trail of blood because he didn't get much on his person?

Stilling executing search warrants 4 years later stumps me but good as to what the heck they could be telling a judge they're looking for or why they think they have a probable cause of finding it. I'd really love to hear what everyone thinks about this one

Thanks for all this info, very thought provoking in many areas!

Fingerprints have me baffled, too. And to add to that, if LE does have them are they full or partial - that is, not enough for an identifiable match? I don't know how complete a print they can get off one of the victims unless it is some smooth area such as smooth leather, vinyl or plastic.

As far as LE knowing the route, I can't recall if LE brought out dogs. Of course, I'm not a SAR expert so I don't if it is possible to track from a scene without giving the dog an article from the person they want tracked. (Given all the personnel - searchers, LE, crime scene techs, medical examiner - in the area going to and from the crime scene I imagine the dog would be unable to discern one scent from another without some article from the person to be tracked.) With all the ground cover from fallen leaves I doubt LE could find shoe prints from the crime scene to track the killer's path out. (I imagine they MIGHT have shoe prints on the creek bank which could reveal a shoe type and size. Assuming they could discern them from LE and searchers in the area.) Having tracked a mortally wounded large animal (deer) multiple times the blood trail is minimal, sometimes even if the animal is not running. So without a serious injury to the killer, I can't see a blood trail being a strong possibility.

Probably cause justification to a judge? If person identified in a tip throws away something like straw, cup or other possible DNA source and it matches the crime DNA then that might be cause for a warrant to get a sample direct from the person. Another might be from preliminary shoe print match, like on the ground around the suspects place of work. I don't know how much weight a judge would allow for information from someone who claimed to hear an admission or bragging about the murder from another person.

 

[Yemelyan]

Fingerprints have me baffled, too. And to add to that, if LE does have them are they full or partial - that is, not enough for an identifiable match? I don't know how complete a print they can get off one of the victims unless it is some smooth area such as smooth leather, vinyl or plastic.

As far as LE knowing the route, I can't recall if LE brought out dogs. Of course, I'm not a SAR expert so I don't if it is possible to track from a scene without giving the dog an article from the person they want tracked. (Given all the personnel - searchers, LE, crime scene techs, medical examiner - in the area going to and from the crime scene I imagine the dog would be unable to discern one scent from another without some article from the person to be tracked.) With all the ground cover from fallen leaves I doubt LE could find shoe prints from the crime scene to track the killer's path out. (I imagine they MIGHT have shoe prints on the creek bank which could reveal a shoe type and size. Assuming they could discern them from LE and searchers in the area.) Having tracked a mortally wounded large animal (deer) multiple times the blood trail is minimal, sometimes even if the animal is not running. So without a serious injury to the killer, I can't see a blood trail being a strong possibility.

Probably cause justification to a judge? If person identified in a tip throws away something like straw, cup or other possible DNA source and it matches the crime DNA then that might be cause for a warrant to get a sample direct from the person. Another might be from preliminary shoe print match, like on the ground around the suspects place of work. I don't know how much weight a judge would allow for information from someone who claimed to hear an admission or bragging about the murder from another person.

Leazenby clearly states in this latest interview that canine units were not used.

They had a canine unit en route to the scene (from Missouri) but when the girls were found LE made the decision to call them off. Leazenby states that one of his regrets in this case is that they didn't use the canine unit to search for the track the assailant took out of the area.

I'm no expert in canine tracking but this suggests to me that LE believes they might have been able to get a scent trail on the killer. Does this mean he left some possession behind? Worth thinking about.

The revelation that they are still actively pursuing warrants was probably the most interesting part of the interviews to me.

 

[Yemelyan]

Not to be flippant, but I don't think anybody has ever suggested that the killings were "straightforward", or that there wasn't an "order" of events (after all, two different murders were committed). I think most people simply assume that one murder happened first, and the other murder happened second. Is there any way you could be a little less vague with your speculation? I'd be interested to hear your theory. TIA and JMO

Obviously I don't want to suggest graphic scenarios of what happened to these victims. But I'll give you an example of "straightforward" and "not straightforward." IMO

A straightforward scene would be one where two victims were each shot with the same caliber weapon and the shootings took place one immediately after the other with no other injuries.

A not straightforward scene would be something like the JonBenet Ramsey case. She had a garotte around her neck but (if I recall correctly, I don't really follow the case closely) that wasn't the injury that killed her. Her actual cause of death was a blow to the head. So coming upon that scene, the investigator would not even know the exact order of injuries/true COD until after the autopsy. The scene looks different than what actually happened.

Now, the fact in this "not straightforward" example that there's two potentially fatal injuries should give investigators pause. Now they have to figure out a theory of the crime. And there's many possibilities. In our example, you'd ask....is the garotte just staging to cover up a different type of crime? Is the garotte a signature of the killer (it was part of his fantasy that he psychologically needed to do but potentially occurred after the victim was dead or dying)? Did the offender want to kill by strangulation but found it's actually harder to strangle someone than you think and resorted to another method? This is the "order of things" I'm referring to.

Why does it matter? LE in the Delphi case has said many times that they are not going to release the cause of death as it's something only the killer will know. They plan to use this information in interrogation.

 

[Skibunny]

I have been following this case since the beginning, and I was thinking of another cold case recently solved up here in Canada. Christine Jessop was murdered in 1984,and through genetic genealogy was solved October 2020. This is a really complex case with many twists and turns. But what really gets me angry is it may have been solved at the time if the police had focused on the limited number of people who knew Christine was going to be home alone after being dropped off by the school bus. The murderer's wife was best friends with Christine's mother, and he knew the plan that day was to let Christine get off the school bus by herself, and that neither her mother or older brother would be home.

Anyhow, I wonder if for the Delphi murders someone overheard one of the relatives of the girls taking on their cell phone about the plans to drive the girls to the hiking trail that afternoon, and arrange for them to be picked up. Is it possible the perp overheard the plans, and knew immediately who the girls were, as one might know in a small town? Also he may have then lay in wait to watch the girls get driven to the trail, and then wait to make sure the adult driving the car drove back past the perp with no girls in the vehicle.

So simply who was present when the plans were discussed? Were other kids invited, asked their parents/step parents/ but couldn't get rides? How many adults were asked to drive various teens around that day? How many overheard their conversations? Coworkers?
The perfect timing of this horrific crime, combined with a really remote spot makes me think this was premeditated, from knowledge received about the girls plans. The perp may have only had a few minutes to make his decision to act, jump in his vehicle and head to the trail.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[K9Enzo]

I haven't checked in on this case in sometime. I follow the Down The Hill podcast and the recent short episode reminded me of this horrific case.

I still go back to there being no school that day and wonder if there's a connection. I don't remember if school was called off that day, or before. Otherwise, I believe the girls would have been in school that day, as normal. Their trip to the park was random that day. IMO

Was the bad guy always going to be in park that day? Was he there to enjoy a walk, the mild weather and came upon these girls and acted? Did he happen to just stop that day to stretch his legs, on a lunch break, passing through town? Or was he there hunting for victims? Was he taking his chances that young girls might be at the park and knew school was out?

I have watched that short video of the guy walking on the bridge so many times. I have passed so many people on a hiking/walking paths over the years and he does not look out of place to me, even with the jeans.

The way he was walking with his hands in his pockets, always made me think he was trying to appear disarming, casual.

@#$% this guy....

IMO

 

[cujenn81]

I've been compiling a list of details about different serial killers (comparing their history, intelligence, methods, victims, etc.) to compare and contrast. Here are some interesting tidbits I've compiled so far --

Hillside Strangler - Kenneth Bianchi
(killed some of his victims with his older cousin Angelo Buono)

Adopted
Above-average intelligence
Suffered from petite mal seizures as a child which resulted in involuntary urination problems (which caused him a great deal of humiliation)
Troubled from an early age
Impersonated LE to lure victims
4 of his 10 victims were killed in pairs (ages of first pair were 12 & 14)
Hated women (even as a young child)
Worked as a former security guard (blue collar job)

Ted Bundy

Illegitimate child (who may have been fathered by his biological grandfather)
Harbored resentment towards his mother for lying about his parentage
Rejection of his ex-girlfriend also bred resentment for women
Grandfather (who he grew up believing was his father) was violent and abusive
Charismatic; well-liked in school
Feigned injury/disability or impersonated LE to lure victims
Bludgeoned or strangled victims
Explored surroundings to locate safe sites to seize and dispose of victims
Took photos of some of his victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Returned to the scene of some victims
Suspected of killing an 8-year-old girl when he was 14

Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins

Illegitimate child
Physically abused by his mother's numerous boyfriends
Below-average intelligence
Bullied at a young age
Sexually exploited as a teenager
Intense hatred of people (especially women)
Worked as a mechanic (blue collar job)
Stabbed, tortured, and raped his victims
Majority of victims were young men and women hitchhikers

Israel Keyes

Raised off the grid by Fundamentalist Christian parents (who later lived among the Amish)
Above-average intelligence
Well-respected within his community
Military history
Strangled victims (which consisted of men and women, young and old)
Targeted strangers in remote locations
Killed far from home and never in the same place twice
Sexually assaulted female victims
Frequently committed arson and bank robbery crimes
Organized and methodical killer
Possessive of victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Handyman / Construction Worker (blue collar job)

Richard Marc Evonitz

Above-average intelligence
Had feelings of inadequacy and inferiority
Emotionally and physically abused by father
Parents were involved in public affairs
Father drowned his dog in front of him when he was a child and attempted to drown him in the bathtub when he was six
Mother married a convicted murderer and rapist in prison after his parents divorced
Military history
Married two women who were much younger, naïve, and dependent upon him
Fulfilled his sexual fantasies while married and murders stopped
Stalked victims prior to their murder
History of exposing himself and masturbating in public
Sexually assaulted victims
Strangled girls and young women
Drowned some of his victims in the bathtub before disposing of their bodies in a river
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Equipment Salesman (blue collar job)

The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway

Below-average intelligence
Domineering mother who belittled and embarrassed him
Described as friendly but strange by those who knew him
Stabbed a 6-year-old boy when he was 16
Military history
Married three times (demanded sex from them several times a day and often wanted to have sex in public or in the woods)
Sexually assaulted and strangled victims (sometimes with ligatures)
Victims were female and ranged in age of 15-38
Painter (blue collar job)
Frequently sought out prostitutes
Insatiable sexual appetite
Fanatically religious
Returned to crime scenes and engaged in necrophilia (later buried victims to resist this urge)
Purposefully contaminated sites with gum, cigarettes, and written materials belonging to others
Transported two of his victims across state lines to confuse LE

Richard Ramirez

Abusive father
Dropped out of high school in the 9th grade
Suffered a severe head injury at the age of six (which resulted in temporal lobe epilepsy, aggressivity, and hypersexuality)
Older Green Beret cousin showed him pictures of his victims (people he had killed) in Vietnam when he was an adolescent and was present when said cousin shot and killed his wife during a domestic dispute (with the blood splattering on Ramirez's face)
Brother-in-law was a Peeping Tom who regularly took him on his exploits
Diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder
Burglarized homes
Sexually assaulted female victims and killed men and women in a variety of ways (shooting, stabbing, beating)
Left pentagrams / satanic imagery at some of his crime scenes
Mutilated victims post-mortem

Tool Box Killers - Lawrence Bittaker & Roy Norris

LB

Unwanted child placed in an orphanage and later adopted as an infant
Above-average intelligence
Placed in juvenile facility during adolescence after he stole a car, committed a hit and run, and evaded arrest
Adoptive parents disowned him post-juvey
Diagnosed as a borderline psychopath and a highly manipulative individual unable to acknowledge the consequences of his actions
Skilled machinist (blue collar job)

RN

Illegitimate child
Mother was a drug addict
Repeatedly placed in foster care as child
Frequently neglected in foster homes and denied insufficient food and/or clothing
Sexually abused while in the care of a foster family
Military history
Diagnosed with severe schizoid personality
Electrician (blue collar job)

Discovered a shared interest in sexual violence in jail
Regularly discussed plans to assault and murder teenage girls once freed
Sexually assaulted victims
Taunted, strangled, tortured, and mutilated victims while recording the audio of their screams

 

[Yemelyan]

@K9Enzo It was a day off built into the official school calendar, not a spontaneous day off. However, by all accounts from the family the decision to go to the high bridge was a relatively spontaneous decision (the original plan was to go shopping after BP wrapped up her work for the day).

 

[minazoe]

on RR,

Richard Ramirez was also a pedophile who kidnapped children from their homes and raped them.

mOO

 

[minazoe]

@K9Enzo It was a day off built into the official school calendar, not a spontaneous day off. However, by all accounts from the family the decision to go to the high bridge was a relatively spontaneous decision (the original plan was to go shopping after BP wrapped up her work for the day).

I don't know why but I seem to have a memory that the girls had discussed going to the High Bridge up to a week before and possibly on Facebook, and that it was just that they hadn't actually asked anyone about permission or getting a ride until
just before...

this is how I remember it..is that wrong? anyone else remember? I could be bonkers....mOO

 

[somequestions]

There is one section of the new part 10 "4 years later" HLN Down the Hill Podcast that I thought was sort of confusing. In it, they stated that the only audio they have of the killer is the audio that has been released so far. Does this mean that the words, "Guys, down the hill" is all they have as audio from the killer?

But then how did the girls get across the creek? I think he would have to give them a command. Maybe they mean that Libby had already dropped her phone before they got to the creek? But then others say the crime was captured on the audio so this is hard to understand, especially since the crime probably took place on the other side of the creek, on the land of the property owner.

I wondered if you can see the cemetery from where the crime scene is located? If a person is walking in a forest without a path to follow I think it can be very difficult to keep a sense of direction. This is why I think following a trail or the shore of a creek would be smartest to find your way out of an unfamiliar area if you cannot go directly there in a straight line.

 

[Yemelyan]

There is one section of the new part 10 "4 years later" HLN Down the Hill Podcast that I thought was sort of confusing. In it, they stated that the only audio they have of the killer is the audio that has been released so far. Does this mean that the words, "Guys, down the hill" is all they have as audio from the killer?

But then how did the girls get across the creek? I think he would have to give them a command. Maybe they mean that Libby had already dropped her phone before they got to the creek? But then others say the crime was captured on the audio so this is hard to understand, especially since the crime probably took place on the other side of the creek, on the land of the property owner.

I wondered if you can see the cemetery from where the crime scene is located? If a person is walking in a forest without a path to follow I think it can be very difficult to keep a sense of direction. This is why I think following a trail or the shore of a creek would be smartest to find your way out of an unfamiliar area if you cannot go directly there in a straight line.

My take on it from Leazenby's interview is "guys..down the hill" are the only audible words that they were able to isolate from the killer, possibly not the only words he uttered, but the only ones in which you can actually hear his voice over whatever else is going on. IMO LE probably did a lot of work on the audio to get it to the point where it is.

I have never heard that the murders were recorded - just criminal activity about to happen. Seems based on this latest interview that the criminal activity would be abduction.

I think the reveal that this is all the audio they have at least gets people to stop complaining that they won't release the rest of it. There is nothing else. It doesn't really change anything about the creek. He could have ordered them across, he could have chased them as they ran - nothing about that piece of it was known to us anyway.

 

[mom2chloe]

Leazenby clearly states in this latest interview that canine units were not used.

They had a canine unit en route to the scene (from Missouri) but when the girls were found LE made the decision to call them off. Leazenby states that one of his regrets in this case is that they didn't use the canine unit to search for the track the assailant took out of the area.

I'm no expert in canine tracking but this suggests to me that LE believes they might have been able to get a scent trail on the killer. Does this mean he left some possession behind? Worth thinking about.

The revelation that they are still actively pursuing warrants was probably the most interesting part of the interviews to me.

Since we know the ISP and FBI were immediately brought in why were the dogs not used despite the discovery of the bodies? This was IMO a major screw up by someone.

 

[mom2chloe]

I don't know why but I seem to have a memory that the girls had discussed going to the High Bridge up to a week before and possibly on Facebook, and that it was just that they hadn't actually asked anyone about permission or getting a ride until
just before...

this is how I remember it..is that wrong? anyone else remember? I could be bonkers....mOO

Although I don’t specifically recall that the girls had discussed it previously it is IMO reasonable to assume that the girls may have looked forward to the day off from school and if the weather was nice they likely did discuss what they wanted to do for the day. I admire that they wanted to spend some time outdoors on a beautiful winter day.

 

[Boxer]

My take on it from Leazenby's interview is "guys..down the hill" are the only audible words that they were able to isolate from the killer, possibly not the only words he uttered, but the only ones in which you can actually hear his voice over whatever else is going on. IMO LE probably did a lot of work on the audio to get it to the point where it is.

I have never heard that the murders were recorded - just criminal activity about to happen. Seems based on this latest interview that the criminal activity would be abduction.

I think the reveal that this is all the audio they have at least gets people to stop complaining that they won't release the rest of it. There is nothing else. It doesn't really change anything about the creek. He could have ordered them across, he could have chased them as they ran - nothing about that piece of it was known to us anyway.

MOO sound of walking in leaves covered the rest.

 

[Charlot123]

Obviously I don't want to suggest graphic scenarios of what happened to these victims. But I'll give you an example of "straightforward" and "not straightforward." IMO

A straightforward scene would be one where two victims were each shot with the same caliber weapon and the shootings took place one immediately after the other with no other injuries.

A not straightforward scene would be something like the JonBenet Ramsey case. She had a garotte around her neck but (if I recall correctly, I don't really follow the case closely) that wasn't the injury that killed her. Her actual cause of death was a blow to the head. So coming upon that scene, the investigator would not even know the exact order of injuries/true COD until after the autopsy. The scene looks different than what actually happened.

Now, the fact in this "not straightforward" example that there's two potentially fatal injuries should give investigators pause. Now they have to figure out a theory of the crime. And there's many possibilities. In our example, you'd ask....is the garotte just staging to cover up a different type of crime? Is the garotte a signature of the killer (it was part of his fantasy that he psychologically needed to do but potentially occurred after the victim was dead or dying)? Did the offender want to kill by strangulation but found it's actually harder to strangle someone than you think and resorted to another method? This is the "order of things" I'm referring to.

Why does it matter? LE in the Delphi case has said many times that they are not going to release the cause of death as it's something only the killer will know. They plan to use this information in interrogation.

A blow to the head. A stone. Or a brick. Lying in place, or even brought by the killer. He is not going to take it back to his escape route.

Possible source of a partial print?

 

[Jax49]

From 2017:

A source familiar with the investigation described the full cell phone recording as "the stuff of nightmares."

Citizen Sleuths Spring Into Action in Indiana Murder Mystery as Reward Reaches $50G

bbm

 

[somequestions]

My take on it from Leazenby's interview is "guys..down the hill" are the only audible words that they were able to isolate from the killer, possibly not the only words he uttered, but the only ones in which you can actually hear his voice over whatever else is going on. IMO LE probably did a lot of work on the audio to get it to the point where it is.

I have never heard that the murders were recorded - just criminal activity about to happen. Seems based on this latest interview that the criminal activity would be abduction.

I think the reveal that this is all the audio they have at least gets people to stop complaining that they won't release the rest of it. There is nothing else. It doesn't really change anything about the creek. He could have ordered them across, he could have chased them as they ran - nothing about that piece of it was known to us anyway.

I looked at the case as this man ordering the girls to go down the hill. Then he marches them along the shoreline of the creek. At some point, probably where the shoreline ends, they all stop and he orders them across the creek. This is how I would have looked for the crime scene if I went to the Monon High Bridge trail. That is why I thought maybe his command to cross the creek might have been on the audio. It seemed like that may have been a decision stopping point, deciding to cross that cold creek water.

I agree that LE has never said the murders were recorded. I think I have thought that based on thinking that Libby had her phone with her the entire time, but maybe not now after listening to part 10 of the HLN Down the Hill podcast.

Maybe the girls were being chased, but it is surprising they did not get away from him. The man in the video does not look to be in the best physical shape. But in my opinion the face of the man in the video does not look anything like the second sketch either. I do not know what to think. Maybe someday when this case is solved and everything is made public, we will find out what actually happened and how the crime actually transpired that day.

 

[somequestions]

From 2017:

A source familiar with the investigation described the full cell phone recording as "the stuff of nightmares."

Citizen Sleuths Spring Into Action in Indiana Murder Mystery as Reward Reaches $50G

bbm

Yes, I remember reading something from that same source about the cell phone full recording being described that way. That is why I thought Liberty German had her phone with her the entire time. But I do not know anymore after listening to part 10 of the HLN Down the Hill Podcast.

Since we do not know how the crime happened, it is hard to even guess anymore.

 

[Yemelyan]

From 2017:

A source familiar with the investigation described the full cell phone recording as "the stuff of nightmares."

Citizen Sleuths Spring Into Action in Indiana Murder Mystery as Reward Reaches $50G

bbm

There's "stuff of nightmares" like the graphic Toolbox murders recording, and then the other end of the spectrum is "stuff of nightmares" that is not graphic but amounts to knowing you heard the last moments before someone suspects they will be killed. I think either one could haunt you, in different ways, of course.

Based on Leazenby's comments (and to a lesser extent, Kim Riley's), I think it must be closer to the latter.

It's awful to contemplate, either way.