Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

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  • #801
Someone asked earlier about a place where the girls might be taken. Whenever someone mentions Carter's "shack", I think about this one.

This first pic is a cabin located just on the other side of the snowbird's property line. The sandbar on the left is located on RL's property, so anyone who spent time down at the creek probably knew about the cabin. I haven't heard anything about it except that it's there.

The second pic shows the entire area: top left arrow points to the cemetery, the next one clock-wise is RL's place, middle right is the cabin, bottom middle is the snowbird's home and the one on the far left is the end of the bridge. As many times as I looked at this pic, I never saw a "path" until the other day. In my mind, I can imagine them escaping the cabin, crossing the creek at the sandbar, hiding/running along the treeline and ending up being caught where they were found.
View attachment 285071 View attachment 285072


It’s too bad there’s not some way to highlight the information that’s just been confirmed and clarified in the Carroll County Comet Q & A otherwise we’re stuck in time with never-changing theories even though LE has been asked to provide the public with additional information. There’s absolutely no indication the girls either went or were taken anywhere other than where they were later found.

post #475
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129
“It has been stated in a press conference that "it was all over by 3:30 on Feb. 13." This statement was based on what information? Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Has it been determined that the girls were killed where they were found? Based on information known, yes.
 
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  • #802
OPEN--well, at the visitations, they were Open..
not sure of the funerals as I cant remember but I am searching my notes

Link please regarding open visitation :)
 
  • #803
DBM double quote
 
  • #804
I have no idea why LE in this case chose to use the terminology "they are two different people." It would have been much less confusing to say, the sketches are two totally different recollections of an event (the event being, seeing someone who in retrospect was suspicious). Once you stop thinking of each sketch as a verified "person," and more "someone's memory of a fleeting moment in time," it becomes easier to understand.

Think about how composite sketches are created. We know the "young" sketch was created from the memory of a woman who "saw something she felt needed to be reported" and it was drawn just a couple of days after the murders. The trooper who drew this sketch told us his process. He sits down with a witness and asks them to look at a bunch of different chins. Then the witness selects the one that supposedly best matches the memory of what they saw. Then the witness looks at different sets of lips and chooses. Then noses. And so on. This is how a composite - a matching together of different parts - is created.

Recent research has shown that we should perhaps question if this piecemeal approach is really the way that the human brain sees and remembers faces. Human memory, especially under stress or if you didn't realize a moment was significant, can be faulty too. But no matter - a composite is only as accurate as a witness's memory of a face.

Compare that to a surveillance photograph of a POI in a hypothetical crime. Let's say, one taken from a camera at an ATM. It's not a memory. It's a physical recording of a real person's face at one moment in time, exactly the way it really looks. Would you not say that, all things being equal (face covering the same, etc) that the photograph is more accurate than any composite sketch of the same POI? Ask yourself why it's more accurate. Because nothing about a photograph is made up based on imperfect recall.

This is why Carter has said that a sketch is not a photograph. It's not a real, verified person who exists, like the surveillance image is. It's just a collection of facial features recalled by a witness, perhaps not that accurately. Carter knows that the person, when found, is unlikely to resemble either sketch to a great extent. That's why he said that the killer may look like a combination of the two sketches.

Even if the two sets of witnesses (a single woman for the young sketch, two or more witnesses for the old sketch) were describing their memories of the same person, they are remembering different aspects just based on what they noticed at the time or could recall later. This is what BP was getting at in the HLN show - witness 1 may have remembered a young person compared to her own experience/viewpoint and the group of witnesses that contributed to sketch 2 described a different memory based on their viewpoint/experience.

Clearly LE have decided based on evidence that one memory is more accurate than the other. Because the memories of two sets of witnesses created two very different looking recollections, one became secondary. Because the sketches aren't real people, this doesn't mean anyone was cleared.

So what is the point of a composite sketch if it's not a "real" person? The hope is that there may be one or two recalled features that are accurate enough where they would stand out to someone who actually knows the person well and can identify them - not just based on resemblance to the sketch though, but by the totality of their behavior. This potential witness may see the sketch and think, it doesn't look exactly like Bob, but the nose does look like his, and he was off work that day, and shaved his beard and hair the next time we saw him, and he knows those trails, and so on.

This is why LE in this case keep asking people not to do side by side comparisons. They know this person is not going to be found by strangers going through old Delphi yearbooks. Sketches work when someone who really knows the subject can put together the resemblance plus behavior.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation but I hope it helps someone understand who gets this far.

No, I do get this part. Thank you for taking time to entertain my confusion and for your lengthy response!

What I'm trying to figure out is whether he meant one is BG and one is NOT the person on the video but is a different person suspected to be associated.
 
  • #805
It’s too bad there’s not some way to highlight the information that’s just been confirmed and clarified in the Carroll County Comet Q & A otherwise we’re stuck in time with never-changing theories even though LE has been asked to provide the public with additional information. There’s absolutely no indication the girls either went or were taken anywhere other than where they were later found.

post #475
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129
“It has been stated in a press conference that "it was all over by 3:30 on Feb. 13." This statement was based on what information? Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Has it been determined that the girls were killed where they were found? Based on information known, yes.
I'd like to completely disregard all the theories except for the one true one but you know how that is. So much of the stuff has been contradicted that I'm to the point of wondering if LE aren't just tossing stuff out to see if they can get a response out of BG.

Now comes the 'found in a culvert'... where did that come from? We know they weren't found in a culvert (don't we?).
 
  • #806
Link please regarding open visitation :)

I found this link on thread 38:

“The visitation that was open to the public was supposed to be from 4-8 p.m. But the sheer number of people who came stretched the viewing two additional hours. A lantern release that was scheduled for 8 p.m. started after 10 p.m.

Music played while weeping mourners – many of them teenagers – filed past the white, open caskets of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, and talked with their family members on the floor of the school gymnasium.”

Memorial for teen girls lasts nearly seven hours
 
  • #807
I'd like to completely disregard all the theories except for the one true one but you know how that is. So much of the stuff has been contradicted that I'm to the point of wondering if LE aren't just tossing stuff out to see if they can get a response out of BG.

Now comes the 'found in a culvert'... where did that come from? We know they weren't found in a culvert (don't we?).

What have you noticed LE has said indicating they believe the girls were taken to some sort of shack to support your theory? To the contrary, this is not the first time LE has confirmed they believe the girls were killed where they were found. It gets confusing to WS members who are newer to the case if we all just go our own way, ignoring the few facts that are known.

On the topic of the culvert -
Does anyone know, was it LE who stated the bodies were found in a culvert or is this speculation by somebody not directly connected to the investigation? Was it stated (as fact) again just recently? It was talked about last year at this time, connected to a DTH podcast. I do recall LE confirming the distance away from the river where the girls were found but that’s about it. If it is fact based, is this why LE stated none of the youtube re-creation videos are correct, nor the news, something like that (my wording).

Post #1108 Feb 26,2020
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120
 
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  • #808
But for example the comment regarding “victims of circumstances and opportunity” it appears to me the intention is to quell speculation about the girls doing something that directly resulted in their deaths. I’m sure those sorts of rumours must be very hurtful to the families.

I know for me, and I would sure hope everyone else here, most people don't mean it like that. I would never blame it on the girls. When we discussed things like a possible creep befriending them online under a guise, that would absolutely been the creep's fault, not theirs. The discussion simply helps to try to narrow down who did this rather than point fingers at anyone but that person.
 
  • #809
.
 
  • #810
I’ve followed this case from day one. Having 28 years in military and federal law enforcement, I sometimes (much to my chagrin), get drawn into a case that I become pretty well obsessed with it. Although I’ve followed along on every one of these threads, I hardly ever post, unless it’s one particular issue that I really do obsess over in these cases. Because LE is so tight-lipped about this case, there is so much we don’t know about the facts, to include the motivation, method, and means of the assailant(s).

<modsnip: Not victim friendly>

TB: “we don’t believe there is an on-going threat to the community.” How the hell could that be if they don’t know who the killer is that just murdered two young ladies? That could be disastrous and completely irresponsible to make a statement of that nature if they don’t have a solid understanding of who committed this crime - full stop people. Is any law enforcement official going to make a statement like that so early on if they believe there is a killer on the loose in their town?

People say Serial Killer. Well why hasn’t there been even a shred of evidence that there are other murders within that region that fits this profile?
Or any since? I don’t believe a serial killer with this type of modus operandi would be able to contain himself for four years without doing it again - and surely word would leak out if it did.

I think they know, but need further evidence to make this an air tight case for the prosecution. That’s why all the secrecy and willingness to withhold information from the public.

This is just my opinion only, and of course it’s just speculation as well as everyone else’s. I just felt I needed to put this out there, since it seems no one has addressed it. I have more thoughts, but feel free to tear my speculation to shreds.
 
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  • #811
Has anyone read the newspaper article on Sheriff Leazenby's responses to the the questions? I found one article, but it is behind a pay wall.
 
  • #812
I’ve followed this case from day one. Having 28 years in military and federal law enforcement, I sometimes (much to my chagrin), get drawn into a case that I become pretty well obsessed with it. Although I’ve followed along on every one of these threads, I hardly ever post, unless it’s one particular issue that I really do obsess over in these cases. Because LE is so tight-lipped about this case, there is so much we don’t know about the facts, to include the motivation, method, and means of the assailant(s).

<modsnip: Not victim friendly>

TB: “we don’t believe there is an on-going threat to the community.” How the hell could that be if they don’t know who the killer is that just murdered two young ladies? That could be disastrous and completely irresponsible to make a statement of that nature if they don’t have a solid understanding of who committed this crime - full stop people. Is any law enforcement official going to make a statement like that so early on if they believe there is a killer on the loose in their town?

People say Serial Killer. Well why hasn’t there been even a shred of evidence that there are other murders within that region that fits this profile?
Or any since? I don’t believe a serial killer with this type of modus operandi would be able to contain himself for four years without doing it again - and surely word would leak out if it did.

I think they know, but need further evidence to make this an air tight case for the prosecution. That’s why all the secrecy and willingness to withhold information from the public.

This is just my opinion only, and of course it’s just speculation as well as everyone else’s. I just felt I needed to put this out there, since it seems no one has addressed it. I have more thoughts, but feel free to tear my speculation to shreds.

First Thank you for your service. I too work with LE and I deal with cold cases and MP & UID cases. <modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped> It just may have been the path they were going down, but I am not sure only because the trip to the park that day, was spur of the moment, for one. I also think the crime itself takes a certain kind of person to do this. But you are right there are so many things we don't know and I am happy they are keeping it close to the vest.
 
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  • #813
Has anyone read the newspaper article on Sheriff Leazenby's responses to the the questions? I found one article, but it is behind a pay wall.

I think it was transcribed a few pages back but not sure you see it.
 
  • #814
A panel discusses who killed the girls

The information about the eyewitness surprised me. I didn’t know there was any public information about an encounter with BG. Surprised that was released.
 
  • #815
First Thank you for your service. I too work with LE and I deal with cold cases and MP & UID cases. <modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped> It just may have been the path they were going down, but I am not sure only because the trip to the park that day, was spur of the moment, for one. I also think the crime itself takes a certain kind of person to do this. But you are right there are so many things we don't know and I am happy they are keeping it close to the vest.

At this juncture, we don't know much as fact. The spur of the moment decision may have been just that, or may not.

You have experience, I've read your posts, and appreciate them greatly! We just don't know what happened that day. Sure, we have wee clues, but we don't even know what end of the bridge BG entered upon. We don't know what the CS looked like. We don't know much at all.

People do crazy stuff. For stupid reasons. We either have a serial killer here, or a budding serial killer, or what? If not a serial killer, then what do we have? Somebody that was out for a one and done murder of two girls? Somebody that had no motive? Somebody that didn't know these girls, he just was having a bad day? Somebody that wasn't offended, or upset, or angry at them, or had something to hide? He just went and did two brutal murders, and that's that?

Take this case, that happened near me. Over $40. When you mix some gang stuff, some meth, some bikers, and who knows what else, it can get real crazy, real quick.

More charges filed against Carroll County suspects in slayings of Taneytown man and witnesses
 
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  • #816
I have to say that I believe that LE knows who did it. DC is so sure about "you want to know what we know, and one day you will". I think DC knows that this will happen. It is only a matter of time. Just as a poster said, they are just waiting for the case to be air tight. At that point, charges and a case will come. I believe!
 
  • #817
They know who did it (imo) but apparently don’t have enough evidence to convict. I wonder why. He must not have raped them. And probably has a “solid” but fake alibi. Maybe a family member who’s swearing on his life that the perp was with him at the time.

4 years has passed. What could change to result in a clean conviction? Not looking good.
 
  • #818
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

When LE stated early on to know what your kids are doing online was that in reference to an early on suspected perp or witness and not the girls for obvious reasons? IMO

I wish we knew more.
 
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  • #819
Also I wish Indiana residents would reach out to their Senators, Representatives and Governor and demand DNA laws to find perps and prosecute them. I’m kind of old but for Pete’s sake get with the times. There is no excuse. These murders matter and when will we experience similar? MOO
 
  • #820
When LE stated early on to know what your kids are doing online was that in reference to an early on suspected perp or witness and not the girls for obvious reasons? IMO

I wish we knew more.
Wish we did too.

Have pondered the same question.
 
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