Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[JudgeJudi]

Article updated on March 2, 2017

Fake news or the unauthorised release of info?

“COPS have recovered DNA evidence from the crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Now police say they have recovered DNA evidence and have asked the lab to fast-track the vital clue. "We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece of information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]."

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything. It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw, or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault."

https://www.thesun.ie/news/629607/s...eving-grandfather-pays-heartbreaking-tribute/

 

[MistyWaters]

There's been a number of posts on this subject. This is an extract from an excellent post by @cujenn81 in the Media, Maps, Timelines thread (p.45 #896):

Scene of the Crime: Delphi — Missing
Episode 2

"LE immediately looks into the girls social media accounts. Anna then discovers Abby has a male friend online that she doesn't know. She didn’t even know that Abby had a FB account because Abby had blocked her, as she'd been forbidden from having an account. The only electronic device Abby had was a Kindle Fire tablet. She got the tablet two months earlier on Christmas, and Anna didn’t know the password. Despite all of this, LE is fairly certain the girls hadn't planned to meet anyone on the trails that day and they didn’t find anything suspicious on SM or on any of the electronics."

Thanks for finding that, I think we all agree no meetup was planned, not that LE know of anyway.

But were the murders entirely random or did the killer somehow learn the two were at the bridge that afternoon through SM, either directly or indirectly? That’s wide open because until such time as a suspect is arrested and tried, the looming question is how did it happen he was at that lonely, rotting bridge on a February day with killing people on his mind, the exact same time as the girls during their short afternoon outing?

It’s been mentioned here before - Christine Jessop - a very cold case of the murder of a young girl from the 80s recently solved in Canada through DNA genealogy. The perp is dead, never a suspect, however it’s now believed the perp learned the child was going to be home alone through overhearing a phone conversation between his wife and the child’s mother. That’s an example of how a predator can seek out an opportunity to make a deliberate attack appear random.

ETA - I continue to believe IF indeed the killer is from the local Delphi area and IF indeed he’s on the younger end of the age spectrum, the odds increase for there to have been some type of connection, even if it wasn’t a personal one.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think it is way more likely that the DNA they have is some innocent person who happened to brush up against them at the grocery store two days before than the killer’s.
It’s only use will be after an arrest to try and match it with the person in custody as a way to try to put them at the scene of the crime. The defense will then say it came from an innocent encounter at the grocery store.

 

[swedeheart]

Has anyone in Europe figured out how to watch the HLN special? I've tried everything I can think of. It's a shame they wouldn't want such a show to be shown to the whole world, especially since we are still searching for a monster 4 years later, but here we are.

TIA.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I have never thought that they had any case, the whole investigation seemed random and a mess from the start.. they don't have experience for such a case , but surely they wouldn't tell you they are desperate , the info they keep guarding might give them some confidence that some day BG will get drunk and blurt something somewhere.

At this point I think they aren’t releasing anything just to hide the fact that the case is so messed up.
If they luck up and get an arrest, they can release it all and no one will care how much it was messed up because everyone will just be so happy there was an arrest.
Just my thoughts.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it is way more likely that the DNA they have is some innocent person who happened to brush up against them at the grocery store two days before than the killer’s.
It’s only use will be after an arrest to try and match it with the person in custody as a way to try to put them at the scene of the crime. The defense will then say it came from an innocent encounter at the grocery store.

I agree. Over time much has been learned about touch/transfer DNA, so if that’s all they have it’s very weak evidence.

How DNA Transfer Nearly Convicted an Innocent Man of Murder

 

[StarryStarryNight]

They stated that the 2/22/17 bomb threat was unrelated to the homicide investigation. IMO, they made the statement to eliminate public confusion. ISP did not evacuate the plant after the bomb threat, but rather went in and searched.

Carroll Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said police remained at the scene until shortly after 4 p.m. helping Indiana Packers management and other law enforcement search the plant. The search turned up nothing, Leazenby said.

"I think somebody must've thought we had a bunch of downtime," Leazenby said in jest as police activity at the plant wound down.

He clarified that the activity was unrelated to law enforcement's ongoing investigation into the murder of two teenage Delphi girls.

UPDATED: Police: Bomb threat called in to Indiana Packers in Delphi

That same day 2/22/17, a news reporter released a photo of boots being taken in for analysis. The report did NOT state they were from the plant search, but since it happened the same day, it needed to be clarified.

https://twitter.com/AlexisMcAdamsTV/status/834521628419710989

jmo

This is bizarre to me. The sheriff is seemingly laughing it up about this bomb scare, states it’s unrelated to the murders, but never says they traced who called it in. Never says it was a 15 year old prankster from Kokomo or an ex-con or whatever. Never says the person responsible were given a strict talking to or charged with anything and led away in handcuffs.
Why? If they know who did it, why not say it...even if it was a stupid teenage prank.
If they don’t know who did it, how do they know it’s not related?
And why can’t you behave professionally and appropriately and convey the seriousness of this happening on the day of a press conference about a double homicide in your small town?

 

[Beachlife926]

I completed my Wikipedia edit history rabbit hole and submitted information that could be of importance to the tip line.

It’s my first tip submitted so don’t know if this was always the auto response or it’s changed since the HLN episode aired:
“....Due to the large volume of tips received, we cannot acknowledge receipt of every piece of information.....”

 

[MistyWaters]

Article updated on March 2, 2017

Fake news or the unauthorised release of info?

“COPS have recovered DNA evidence from the crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Now police say they have recovered DNA evidence and have asked the lab to fast-track the vital clue. "We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece of information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]."

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything. It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw, or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault."

https://www.thesun.ie/news/629607/snapchat-murder-cops-fast-track-dna-evidence-found-in-libby

Article updated on March 2, 2017

Fake news or the unauthorised release of info?

“COPS have recovered DNA evidence from the crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

Now police say they have recovered DNA evidence and have asked the lab to fast-track the vital clue. "We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece of information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]."

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything. It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw, or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault."

[URL]https://www.thesun.ie/news/629607/snapchat-murder-cops-fast-track-dna-evidence-found-in-libby-german-and-abigail-williams-case-as-grieving-grandfather-pays-heartbreaking-tribute/

-german-and-abigail-williams-case-as-grieving-grandfather-pays-heartbreaking-tribute/[/URL]

IIRC this clarification followed that original interview.

Sheriff clarifies reports of DNA evidence
“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby clarified his on-air comments from a Thursday interview during a Fox59 report, noting he didn't intend to confirm or deny that investigators collected DNA evidence in the double homicide investigation of Abby Williams and Liberty German.

During the interview, Fox 59 anchors asked Leazenby about DNA, and the TV station's report said investigators acquired DNA evidence during the investigation of the case. However, Leazenby said he was speaking about physical evidence in general and not about DNA evidence in particular.”

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Has anyone in Europe figured out how to watch the HLN special? I've tried everything I can think of. It's a shame they wouldn't want such a show to be shown to the whole world, especially since we are still searching for a monster 4 years later, but here we are.

TIA.

I'm in UK and can't find anywhere at all. So disappointing because the families would want it online and available to the whole world, so the world knows their story.

Is it going to be on YT at some point??

 

[Seattle1]

Has anyone in Europe figured out how to watch the HLN special? I've tried everything I can think of. It's a shame they wouldn't want such a show to be shown to the whole world, especially since we are still searching for a monster 4 years later, but here we are.

TIA.

The two-part special is still being broadcast on HLN but I think it will eventually be featured on HLN's YT so I'd keep checking:

In this Weekend Express special report, Susan Hendricks gives you everything you need to know before watching the all-new two-night HLN Investigation "Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders" which premieres tonight (Sunday, February 14) at 10 p.m. Eastern Time and 7 p.m. Pacific.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Wasn't there also a joint police press conference on the Delphi murders on the same day, February 22, 2017, as the bomb threat call? That seems a bit odd.

 

[Tealgrove]

Anna Williams is Abby's mother.

Thank you.

 

[ReadySet]

Fascinating article.

If they do have DNA from BG, he could have left both "innocent" transfer DNA, and DNA from the crime, right?

Didn't one of the investigators at one time say there were "several" or "half a dozen" suspects, or something to that effect?

So the problem could be distinguishing between transfer DNA and DNA left during the crime. They have to have corroborating evidence to back up the DNA.

I agree. Over time much has been learned about touch/transfer DNA, so if that’s all they have it’s very weak evidence.

How DNA Transfer Nearly Convicted an Innocent Man of Murder

 

[Yemelyan]

The Carroll County Comet has published part one of its Q&A with Leazenby.County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

The article is behind a paywall. However, I was able to read it. The vast majority of questions were things he either couldn't comment on (what kind of DNA do you have? etc) or are already common knowledge to followers of the case.

However, out of all the questions and answers I found the following very interesting to discussions that arise here daily. This is an excerpt from the article (tons more questions were answered but these are just a few):

Did one or more sets of footprints lead searchers to the area where the girls were found? This speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation and I would prefer respectfully to not answer.

The public has been given two sketches, is the thought there is more than one person involved or is the second sketch the suspected killer? These were produced by information gained from witnesses near the area during the time frame. The primary focus by the investigators is on the second sketch.

No matter how distant, do you have the man walking on the bridge, videoed by Libby, on any other video? This is close to evidentiary information question and I prefer not to respond. (note from me: I think this is an intriguing possibility and since he doesn't deny it, I find it very interesting!)

The day the girls were found, how quickly were you personally on the scene? How many police and emergency response individuals were physically present at the crime scene? What departments were represented at the scene? As I recall, a very short amount of time, less than an hour. By law enforcement, immediately. I do not recall without referencing reports. Mainly Sheriff's office, ISP, and the FBI.

In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found, and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene? Once secured by law enforcement, no. I would surmise that the searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

It has been stated in a press conference that "it was all over by 3:30 on Feb. 13." This statement was based on what information? Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Has it been determined that the girls were killed where they were found? Based on information known, yes.

Can you elaborate about your reference to this case as having a "twist" that you have never seen before? Is it something more than Libby audio recording and videotaping their assailant(s)? One of the main twists is that Carroll County has had a high success rate of finding missing persons. For this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we, as seasoned investigators, expected.

Describe the area where you believe "down the hill" was said. South end of the High Bridge.

Is there still a team of investigators? How many comprise that team and how often do they meet? Yes, Two county detectives, two ISP detectives, and from time to time, outside detectives from other police agencies including the FBI. A portion of the team meets almost daily...

How much time is spent investigating each week? At minimum, 40 hours. But depending on what is being followed, it obviously can be more.

As the lead agency, are you THE person in charge of the team of investigators? I supervise the county detectives. Outside agencies have their own supervisors.

In your professional opinion, would you describe the deaths of the six females (NOTE: the questioner is including the Flora Fire in this question) as "planned"? No. Rather, "victims of circumstance or opportunity."

 

[Yemelyan]

So to follow up on my post above, to me it is incredible that TL apparently confirms that Abby and Libby's murders were not planned, but that they were "victims of circumstance or opportunity" in his words. This is huge.

Also we now know for sure that based on everything LE knows, they were killed in the spot where they were found.

It's also good to have an answer to what he meant by "the twist" that is so often debated. In case it got lost in the text in my post above, according to TL the twist is that Carroll County usually finds any missing persons and it was a shock to investigators that murder was the outcome instead.

 

[Algo214]

Has it been determined that the girls were killed where they were found? Based on information known, yes.

Describe the area where you believe "down the hill" was said. South end of the High Bridge.

In your professional opinion, would you describe the deaths of the six females (NOTE: the questioner is including the Flora Fire in this question) as "planned"? No. Rather, "victims of circumstance or opportunity."

Sniped for focus.
These 3 questions are rather big reveals imo.

 

[Yemelyan]

Sniped for focus.
These 3 questions are rather big reveals imo.

Huge reveals IMO. We can stop debating a lot of things that we've been discussing for 4 years, that's for sure.

 

[Yemelyan]

Fascinating article.

If they do have DNA from BG, he could have left both "innocent" transfer DNA, and DNA from the crime, right?

Didn't one of the investigators at one time say there were "several" or "half a dozen" suspects, or something to that effect?

So the problem could be distinguishing between transfer DNA and DNA left during the crime. They have to have corroborating evidence to back up the DNA.

Exactly. There is a case from late last year where a woman was murdered while walking in a park. The suspect in that case has several incriminating things against him (was seen on video running from the park at the time in question, apparently left his flip flops behind at the scene) but also his DNA was found on the back of the victim's pants. DNA, Camera Footage Led to Teen's Arrest in Killing of Carlsbad Hiker

His lawyer is trying to say that it's possible the woman sat down on a log or bench that the suspect also sat on that day. It's unclear yet if this defense will fly in court. But this is exactly what the Delphi investigators may need to worry about coming up as a defense at trial.

 

[ReadySet]

I agree. I suspect, though, that there will be members of the public who will argue with and deny these answers.

Huge reveals IMO. We can stop debating a lot of things that we've been discussing for 4 years, that's for sure.