Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

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  • #541
Interestingly, you may know, in late 2019 it was published, that a paleogeneticist from CA, Dr Ed Green, had found a technique to extract DNA from hair without roots. It is a groundbreaking technique and he is now helping LE to possibly solve cold cases based on strand hair evidence..-Nin

In 2005 Dr Green managed to obtain DNA from fossilised bones. He tweaked his method to be suitable for hair after a genetic genealogist contacted him about the Bear Brook murders. The police knew who the killer was but not the victims. Months later, the police announced they had finally found the identity of three of the four victims.

Marlyse Elizabeth Honeychurch and her two daughters were finally named as the victims after being Jane Does for 30 years.

Justin Loe, the chief executive of Full Genomes, a genetics services company, said that it's a bona-fide 'game-changer.' He added, 'Criminals think of wearing gloves or wiping down blood, but fewer think to shave their head.'

It's definitely getting harder for murderers to escape the long arm of the law.
 
  • #542
Maybe BG could have covered one or both girls, I’ve heard that covering shows the perpetrator may have felt bad about what they had done.

Other times killers cover the face for a different reason, it's not because they previously knew their victim or felt bad about their actions but instead it's an act of "depersonalizing" - attempting to make their victim more like an object instead of a human person (because that's often how they see their victims anyway). The other evidence at the crime scene, the victimology/lifestyle factors of the victim, and other forensic findings may help investigators determine what the offender was trying to accomplish when this activity is present. JMO
 
  • #543
I guess in my mind, the only way the Delphi girls would be considered victims of circumstance is if he killed them accidentally. And I don't think it was an accident.

I keep coming back to this, but LE has said they think the Flora girls died unintentionally during the commission of another, intentional crime. LE had said the Delphi girls were likely in the wrong place at the wrong time and BG took that opportunity.

Theoretically the killer's initial intentions may have very well been to sexually assault (one of ) the girls. The area surrounding either ends of the MHB are very steep. Would it be too farfetched to imagine, that one of the victims may have been gravely injured while possibly sliding/racing "down the hill", or the killer himself slipped and fell on one of the victims causing a serious injury? If one of the girls then tried to drag the other one through the creek - as escape route while the perp was recovering from his own injury -, the injured girl may have drowned , or just not regained consciousness. When the killer finally caught up with them, he then murdered the surviving victim, murdered the unconscious one as well and staged a crime scene. Now it would look like a SK committed the murders. LE would not release COD (of one of the girls)..Drowning.

All IMO

-Nin
 
  • #544
A question was posed to LE asking if the murders were planned. “No, not planned, they were victims of circumstance and opportunity.”

Re victims of circumstance and opportunity - I take this to mean that Abby and Libby happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and BG saw he had a window of opportunity to commit the crime.
 
  • #545
Wasn’t it implied or suggested that LE had a search warrant for another property? I’m not referring to RL’s property but another one near there? I’ve also wondered if someone had it in for RL hence leaving bodies on his property. Another neighbor possibly? IMO

They also executed a search warrant on a farmhouse in Bicycle Bridge Road. The link includes photos of the farmhouse, an outbuilding (shack), an old sedan and a metal shed. Scroll down the page to see a map where the farmhouse is located.

Search warrant served at Indiana home in teens' murders | Daily Mail Online
 
  • #546
Other times killers cover the face for a different reason, it's not because they previously knew their victim or felt bad about their actions but instead it's an act of "depersonalizing" - attempting to make their victim more like an object instead of a human person (because that's often how they see their victims anyway). The other evidence at the crime scene, the victimology/lifestyle factors of the victim, and other forensic findings may help investigators determine what the offender was trying to accomplish when this activity is present. JMO

ISIS executioner...Jihadi John. This is whom the BG resembles me of.

(Did this dude watch the ISIS movies, I wonder?)

And also... why is it so that Britain could identify Jihadi John, using voice recognition technology, and in USA, a murderer and molester of two teenage girls can not be identified?
 
  • #547
do we know 100 percent for sure that the girls commented on the guy in the recording..that "there's that strange guy again" comment...is that a fact?

No, I don’t think so. The topic of “strange” or “creepy” man or guy arises regularly about every two weeks or so and in all this time I haven’t noticed anyone linking a source to prove those words were directly spoken by one of the girls.

I agree Misty. I’ve never read that either of the girls used that word. If they did, LE never said it was on the recording Libby made. However, several people did use that term. IIRC Gray Hughes was the first person, then Becky Patty, and finally Kelsi in the following podcast.

Victimology Podcast
The Delphi Murders – Interview with Kelsi
@ 13:00

Q. You dropped them off like early after noonish or like mid-afternoon?
K: I dropped the girls off around 1:30 on my way to my boyfriend’s house. My Dad was supposed to pick them up around 3:30.

My sister and Abby were there taking pictures and videos of each other and just hanging out which is something very common in that area. And at one point the girls had already gotten across the bridge and it seems like Libby realizes that something is wrong or there’s a creepy guy behind them who just kind of made her feel nervous.

Kelsi isn't quoting Libby, merely offering an opinion.

Victimology – The Oracl3 Network
 
  • #548
I read late last night, it is something they could usually trace back to someone specific, but haven't been able to do so in this case... so what could that physical evidence be? The specific quote from the article I've linked below is as follows: " Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So? What could or should have logically led to one person or another, but didn't? Theories?
-> Did he leave (intentionally or not), a device of some sort at the scene? Electronic device? Prosthetic device (serial numbers can be used to trace these to maker etc). Was he diabetic and left something related to that there?
-> what could he have done that they thought they should have been able to trace back to someone specific?
-> some hint of employment?

2. We've only heard about Libby's phone having taken the video / audio evidence. Did Abby have a phone? If so, where was it? Who has it now?

(Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online)

I think he must have planted something pointing at one person, and only one person. I remember TL saying "the community would be shocked to find out who it was". This tells me that there was something left, intentionally, that belonged to a certain person, and it was recognizable. Maybe the first search was related to it, not sure.

But very soon the LE realized that they were wrong. This is when they started looking at, essentially, a transient (DN). So they did follow that route, maybe an "outside" SK... so I assume that whatever was left, pointed at one specific person.

And much later, they realized their mistake. I think that 2019 PC conference put them at stage 1.

I think that initially, they, indeed, had about 5 POIs, but later they narrowed it down. Maybe 1-2, but they feel they know who he is.

BTW. I never understood what the phrase "we were onto something from the very beginning" meant. But now I wonder if one of the LE working the Delphi case has naturally strong intuition. Don't know who it is.

I always wondered why Kim Riley retired...
 
  • #549
I agree Misty. I’ve never read that either of the girls used that word. If they did, LE never said it was on the recording Libby made. However, several people did use that term. IIRC Gray Hughes was the first person, then Becky Patty, and finally Kelsi in the following podcast.

Victimology Podcast
The Delphi Murders – Interview with Kelsi
@ 13:00

Q. You dropped them off like early after noonish or like mid-afternoon?
K: I dropped the girls off around 1:30 on my way to my boyfriend’s house. My Dad was supposed to pick them up around 3:30.

My sister and Abby were there taking pictures and videos of each other and just hanging out which is something very common in that area. And at one point the girls had already gotten across the bridge and it seems like Libby realizes that something is wrong or there’s a creepy guy behind them who just kind of made her feel nervous.

Kelsi isn't quoting Libby, merely offering an opinion.

Victimology – The Oracl3 Network
Anna Williams does mention in her 360 interview with Renner that she listened to the audio and Abby said something about moving away to which Libby responded they couldn't because the trail ended there.

I still find it so tragic that the girl's obviously felt uneasy about this man approaching them but weren't scared enough to run through private property to someone's house or to the road, to get away, making a big scene as they ran.

If nothing else is learnt from the Delphi tragedy I hope and pray that young kids are told that to take flight when you feel uneasy is not uncool, ever. Respect your instincts.
 
  • #550
For me, being a victim of circumstance is vastly different than being a victim of opportunity, although they are not necessarily exclusive of one another. It would depend on the facts of the case.

Just one example of several I could conjure, theoretically speaking, the girls could have witnessed a drug deal on the trail that day, maybe someone prominent in the community, heck, they wouldn't even have had to recognize him, or anyone else, just walking by could do it. That would be a circumstance that may have led to a frightened and enraged individual committing murder. However, it is unlikely, IMO, as I believe the killer here had some things with him that he used in this crime, evidence of planning, you see.

If it's purely being a victim of opportunity, then indeed I believe we would have a serial killer, or a budding serial killer on our hands, or the girls were murdered for a reason.

The LE officer that made the statement may have simply been alluding to his belief that the circumstances of nice weather, a day off school, timing, and remoteness of the trail/bridge led to the opportunity for the killer.

I think BG was there that day to commit murder. He could have been there on other days before, with the intention of the same.

I don't think the girls were lured to the bridge, and I don't think they were in communication with anyone that they would be meeting at the bridge. Although I do have a piece of me that still thinks the possibility exists that there is a connection between the killer and the girls.

I really WANT to believe Abby and Libby weren't targeted, however, there are so many things that LE have gotten wrong on this case, I'm hesitant to dive in head first and put full faith and confidence in their assessment of the situation, in particular in light of the fact that they have not solved the case.

The wrong path for two years is a major faux pas in my book. This in and of itself is a glaring example of why I just don't have full confidence.

Calling off the search, yet allowing who knows who to, reportedly hundreds of people, to continue to search, many throughout the night. I think this to be a major error in judgement, and a contributing factor to the difficulty in securing and analyzing the crime scene.

Failure to utilize canine SAR teams. IMO, any report of a missing person in which LE becomes involved should promptly result in trained canine units being called upon to assist.

Myriad examples of inconsistencies in pressers and statements to the public.

I am a strong supporter of LE. Trust me, I know several by first name. I truly hope the tip comes in that solves this case. Then we all can find out just how wrong we were in our speculation :D:D:D
bbm
Victims of circumstance and opportunity:
I wonder, if LE would have said so also before the April 2019-PC or if the new path made them believing in a new way, why Abby/Libby became victims. Did in 2019 a new suspect arise, who suddenly had a name, an appearance, a date of birth and a biography? Is LE influenced by this new name in profiling their suspect (they have to be)? Is LE consequently thinking to have found the reason, why Abby/Libby became victims: a matter of cirumstance and opportunity? I wonder, whether with a new name there were new findings, why Abby and why Libby (why Delphi? why Indiana?).
 
  • #551
I hate how there is so much conflicting info about the trails and bridge! This event implies that many people know about the existence and location of the bridge. It might even be a tradition amongst local families and a fun, unique experience to take out of town visitors. Kelsi has said high school kids go there to hang out, Libby and Kelsi had been there several times. There was a woman who was interviewed on HLN’s DTH special who said Delphi was becoming a travel destination and she regularly got requests for maps of the trails. Some estimates put approximately 50 people there the day of the murder and 300-500 searchers that night and the following day, maybe more.

Yet we repeatedly hear that the bridge is hidden, locals don’t even know where it is, very few people go there, it’s very secluded. We’re told BG must be local to have any knowledge of the bridge and how to get in and out of the area.

It just doesn’t add up to me. And I wonder why there two very different versions out there.
This is one aspect of the narrative that has always frustrated me because I have seen pictures of banners downtown that advertise the historic trail system.
 
  • #552
I agree Misty. I’ve never read that either of the girls used that word. If they did, LE never said it was on the recording Libby made. However, several people did use that term. IIRC Gray Hughes was the first person, then Becky Patty, and finally Kelsi in the following podcast.

Victimology Podcast
The Delphi Murders – Interview with Kelsi
@ 13:00

Q. You dropped them off like early after noonish or like mid-afternoon?
K: I dropped the girls off around 1:30 on my way to my boyfriend’s house. My Dad was supposed to pick them up around 3:30.

My sister and Abby were there taking pictures and videos of each other and just hanging out which is something very common in that area. And at one point the girls had already gotten across the bridge and it seems like Libby realizes that something is wrong or there’s a creepy guy behind them who just kind of made her feel nervous.

Kelsi isn't quoting Libby, merely offering an opinion.

Victimology – The Oracl3 Network
How would she know that?
 
  • #553
How would she know that?

Her grandparents, Becky and Mike Patty, have listened to more of the tape and they no doubt told her. Kelsi lives with them.
 
  • #554
We should have a list of facts and links so we don't keep mudding up the waters.
 
  • #555
Anna Williams does mention in her 360 interview with Renner that she listened to the audio and Abby said something about moving away to which Libby responded they couldn't because the trail ended there.

I still find it so tragic that the girl's obviously felt uneasy about this man approaching them but weren't scared enough to run through private property to someone's house or to the road, to get away, making a big scene as they ran.

If nothing else is learnt from the Delphi tragedy I hope and pray that young kids are told that to take flight when you feel uneasy is not uncool, ever. Respect your instincts.

I have posted this many times on WS because it is a great book for women, "The Gift of Fear". according to the author, women get raped and murdered because we are too polite, and don't want to offend anyone. The book is worth the read.
 
  • #556
ISIS executioner...Jihadi John. This is whom the BG resembles me of.

(Did this dude watch the ISIS movies, I wonder?)

And also... why is it so that Britain could identify Jihadi John, using voice recognition technology, and in USA, a murderer and molester of two teenage girls can not be identified?

Just guessing here but I'm assuming that authorities had more than 4 words to work with when they used voice recognition software to find Jihadi John.

Remember that we have heard from TL that "Guys...down the hill" are the only words on the video from the suspect.

In the HLN extra with the reporters of DTH, they recount asking an FBI audio specialist for his opinion about whether accent, region of origin, or age can be reliably determined from the Delphi sample and that expert gave the opinion that the four word sample is too short to determine those factors.
 
  • #557
I always wondered why Kim Riley retired...

Not to be flippant but probably because he is old enough to retire?

State police have a mandatory retirement age (not sure what it is in Indiana now but it was age 65 pretty recently), and individuals can retire from the state police as early as 50 or 52 depending on how long they have served. Kim Riley is a 34 year veteran trooper and he says he served part-time for 3 years prior to that: 34 year veteran of Indiana State Police retiring from Lafayette Post

So he is definitely over the age that he is eligible to retire with full benefits and probably getting close to mandatory retirement age for a trooper.

He also told us in DTH that he took a planned vacation about one month into the murder investigation. Why would he do that??? Because he's the press officer and is really not that involved in the investigation; you can say the same thing for DC. Don't be surprised if DC retires before this is solved, and for the same reason. Also he is a political appointee and his role may change if the governor changes.
 
  • #558
Just guessing here but I'm assuming that authorities had more than 4 words to work with when they used voice recognition software to find Jihadi John.

Remember that we have heard from TL that "Guys...down the hill" are the only words on the video from the suspect.

In the HLN extra with the reporters of DTH, they recount asking an FBI audio specialist for his opinion about whether accent, region of origin, or age can be reliably determined from the Delphi sample and that expert gave the opinion that the four word sample is too short to determine those factors.
As a non-professional,
MOO the four words sound like South Midland.
 
  • #559
As a non-professional,
MOO the four words sound like South Midland.

Having grown up in that area myself, I'd agree with you, but I'm not an expert.

There is a reason that every time a new podcast or youtube video comes out about this case, new posters come into the threads talking about how this officer's voice or that one "creeped them out." LE in this case talk like BG talks because they all are from the same general area and have rural south midland accents.
 
  • #560
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