Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[OverTheRhine]

I realize that there are only a few seconds between "guys" and "down the hill," I'm curious as to why LE might go to the trouble of putting a sound like (to me) shattering glass in those few seconds instead of the innocent enough sounding "huh?" from the girls? Is it possible that they might have been trying to cover up something else? It just seems strange to me is all.

JMO

I just think LE went to great lengths to be as respectful as possible to the family. They edited Abby out, and I assume Libby was cropped out as well since this was more than likely a sneaky selfie (meaning she was filming BG inconspicuously). We've heard no audio of either girls. I think they want the focus to be solely on the killer and this is the information they gave to the public. It's possible one of the girls sounded in distress and they didn't want that out there. Either way, I think they made the right decision. They allowed the family to view more of the video and kept everything else out of the public. It just isn't pertinent to us.

 

[Gypsy86]

and the composites.... we can cleatly see that this is a grown man at least in his 40s. middle aged... why put another composite up of a younger man.... some people may think we are looking for someone closer to their age and that is clearly not the case

 

[Gypsy86]

It appears that genetic genealogy, like what caught the Golden State Killer, would likely be legal in IN as that allows people to opt into public genealogy databases. The familial searches of criminal databases get into a weird legal area because it relies on the assumption that if you are involved in illegal activities, there's a greater chance than not that your very close relatives are also criminals. From that article cited above:

Familial DNA as an investigative tool has also faced opposition from civil libertarians, who worry it will be used indiscriminately, casting unwelcome attention on the relatives of crime suspects and particularly on people of color, because of their disproportionate representation in those databases.

so pretty much this is a way not to bring attention to innocent people, but also prevents LE from catching horrendous cold blooded killers....... mind blowing

 

[Nancy1954]

i a

i agree. there was alot that was taken out of the publics reach. and im more than sure whatever it is they are holding back on is excactly what we need to identify him, possibly and hopefully without them knowing. there is just 1 missing thing that can blow this case out of the water

I agree that LE is holding things tight, that there is a lot that we don't know, and it makes it more difficult for those of us trying to help. But I have come to see through so many much better informed people (than myself) on here, that it is necessary in order to make sure that the case is tight to ensure the MONSTER is convicted.

 

[Gypsy86]

It appears that genetic genealogy, like what caught the Golden State Killer, would likely be legal in IN as that allows people to opt into public genealogy databases. The familial searches of criminal databases get into a weird le

I agree that LE is holding things tight, that there is a lot that we don't know, and it makes it more difficult for those of us trying to help, but I have come to see through so many much better informed people (than myself) on here that it is necessary in order to make sure that the case is tight to ensure the MONSTER is convicted.

i hope they catch him
gal area because it relies on the assumption that if you are involved in illegal activities, there's a greater chance than not that your very close relatives are also criminals. From that article cited above:

Familial DNA as an investigative tool has also faced opposition from civil libertarians, who worry it will be used indiscriminately, casting unwelcome attention on the relatives of crime suspects and particularly on people of color, because of their disproportionate representation in those databases.

so pretty much this is a way not to bring attention to innocent people, but also prevents LE from catching horrendous cold blooded killers....... mind blowing

 

[Yemelyan]

so pretty much this is a way not to bring attention to innocent people, but also prevents LE from catching horrendous cold blooded killers....... mind blowing

Yes. It brings up questions about the rights of U.S. citizens to 4th Amendment protections in our constitution.

When criminal databases are used by investigators to analyze DNA evidence for an exact match (such as with national database CODIS), basically everyone agrees this is useful and lawful, as your DNA profile is unique enough to provide very high statistical correlation. But the controversial partial match or familial search method that trawls criminal databases for your close relatives leaves open constitutional questions about an individual's right to privacy over their genetic information. There have been a number of cases where the partial match familial technology was faulty because the DNA "association" LE found was not actually that close, and suspicion was cast upon the wrong person. You can read about those in the NBC article I linked above.

 

[Gypsy86]

I also have not let go of LE requesting not just DNA but also the autopsy of PE. What would they look for in autopsy beyond DNA?

I wonder if the perpetrator left some evidence at the crime scene that through testing revealed he is a regular user of illicit substances that are not commonly used by other offenders (i.e., not marijuana, nor meth, nor opiates, but something like anabolic steroids). So, they wanted to check PE for those substances.

To my knowledge, LE has never indicated PE has been cleared of suspicion of involvement even as they continue to pursue tips relating to the perpetrator portrayed in the sketch released in April 2019. So, it may be that they have still not closed the door on the possibility of more than one person involved.

That came across my mind when the second composite came up

 

[Pyschsandi]

LE have partially answered this:

Q. Do you know how the murderer was able to gain control of both girls at once?

A. It is believed by manipulation and intimidation factors.

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

I doubt they want to say exactly what weapon he used to intimidate, if he did; this info would be used in interrogation and in screening tips IMO.

I just started a great audio book called killing for sport inside the mind of serial killers by Mary Ellen Otoole and she claims that a knife is more intimidating to victims than a gun, because a knife can inflict more debilitating wounds. I can understand how a knife would be really scary, I hate knives.

 

[Diddian]

I just started a great audio book called killing for sport inside the mind of serial killers by Mary Ellen Otoole and she claims that a knife is more intimidating to victims than a gun, because a knife can inflict more debilitating wounds. I can understand how a knife would be really scary, I hate knives.

I'd expect that a knife is also more psychosexually satisfying to the killer because it is so terrifying to the victim - because it inflicts debilitating wounds AND it makes the monster hands on.

I'd just add that the monster's infliction of that terror ALSO increases the resolve of decent, civilized people to see that monster apprehended and contained. And we have God on our side which is no small advantage.

 

[Gypsy86]

it just breaks my heart thinking about how terrified them 2 girls must have been. he more than likely had a knife or small hand gun or nothing at all, he generally killed them with their love for 1 another. its possible he could have left some kind of evidence to link him to other crimes

 

[TL4S]

I'd expect that a knife is also more psychosexually satisfying to the killer because it is so terrifying to the victim - because it inflicts debilitating wounds AND it makes the monster hands on.

I'd just add that the monster's infliction of that terror ALSO increases the resolve of decent, civilized people to see that monster apprehended and contained. And we have God on our side which is no small advantage.

This makes me think about my own reaction when I see the video and hear the audio. Seeing and hearing him like we do brings those terrifying moments to life more than a crime you read about but can only imagine.

In this case, being better able to viscerally put myself in those girls' place, it really pi**es me off, to be honest. To see and hear him encounter them initially... it's horrible.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I'm having troubles wording this, because I know it's obvious, but the killer did exist before February 13, 2017. He had to come from somewhere. So why was he there?

I agree that anyone, from anywhere, can search online and find a trail. It's not impossible that the killer decided he wanted to kill someone in a random, remote place, so drove to Delphi, IN with that express purpose, hoping for an opportunity. It's also not impossible that the killer decided to search for and travel to an old railway bridge, where he happened to get triggered and murder two local girls during his visit. These are both possible, but imo, unlikely.

So where did he come from and why was he there? I'm not 100% convinced he had to live in the community, or have been on the trail and bridge before, to carry out his crimes. But I do firmly believe he had another reason to be in the Delphi vacinity during that time, other than murder. I think he's familiar with the general area in some capacity, for whatever reason, besides just exploring it on a map. He lived a life before the murders, so he had to be doing something, and that something led him there. JMO

It makes sense to me that LE assumes he's either local, or has some family or business link to the area, because it seems too improbable for him to be there otherwise. This is just how I see it.

I have often thought that he was part of the large committee of people and media who were covering the Bridge Restoration Project. There were pictures posted and articles but I’m not sure what dates they actually met out there. Maybe someone reading this knows or can find out if any of the regular POI’s discussed participated in that.

 

[Justice101]

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[technicallymissing]

Libby took the video via selfie camera backwards over her shoulder, while BG was approaching, according to Alexis Mcadams/ABC7:

https://twitter.com/AlexisMcAdamsTV/status/887816655836938240?s=04

That is IMO the 'presence of mind' LE is attributing to her.

-Nin

Wow, I've never seen this before. That could really put a lot in context with regards to the girls' awareness of what was happening and their actions that may have followed. Does anyone remember someone close to the case- possibly a relative- saying that in the audio one of the girls says "He's behind you" at some point about BG? I feel like I remember hearing it on one of the YouTube interviews or something but I could just be misremembering something I read here that people were discussing as a possibility.

 

[drama_farmer]

Hi,

I read websleuths before but never posted.
I'm Dutch living in sweden so forgive my grammar!. I read websleuths about Dutch hikers which i followed and you guys were incredible.
I was introduced to Delphi case by a friend of mine who grew up there and moved away to Europe few years ago.
I read quite a bit about the case here but not 100% of threads.
I came across a few mentions of trial itself. And how would murderer know about it I would like to share some things with you.

* trials are not hard to find. I never been to United States but after I met a friend from Delphi i Google it out of curiosity and the bridge was in top search of places to see there. It was on TripAdvisor and reddit. One didn't need to know about it as local to go there.

* i belive the video tape was taken accidentally not on purpose. If one feel threatened its usually 911 call or sms to friends /family that would be a first line if scared of someone.
I believe video was taken and murder happened to walk on thats why the picture is so pixeled because it's from far far away.

* I also believe that main motive was sexual assault but time didn't let that happened / murderer was spooked or girls put up bigger fight then he anticipated.

* crossing the river /creek is not unusual and doesn't necessarily mean person know the area. Its logical thinking that one can be caught doing something while on trail. If he took girls off the trail he might have been easily caught by passersby/dog( which would give an attention to what's going on). Crossing creek gives you control over people who might come by. In case he was caught /seen he will have time to escape before someone would cross water to get to them.

* i dont believe he is local because it's hard to grasp that to me. I grew up in a small dutch town and I knew everyone and even their extended families. Even if his family doesn't want to say he could be a suspect someone has to see him. He would need to be out there seeing a doctor, having a job, doing groceries, etc etc

That's all my own opinion.
Ps. Forget my grammar mistakes

bbm
Hi Fika, and welcome to the thread. I'm just curious about your friend from the Delphi area. . . did he/she move to Europe prior to February 2017?

 

[Fika]

bbm
Hi Fika, and welcome to the thread. I'm just curious about your friend from the Delphi area. . . did he/she move to Europe prior to February 2017?

Hi, thank you
Yes she's been living in Europe since 2014.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I also have not let go of LE requesting not just DNA but also the autopsy of PE. What would they look for in autopsy beyond DNA?

I wonder if the perpetrator left some evidence at the crime scene that through testing revealed he is a regular user of illicit substances that are not commonly used by other offenders (i.e., not marijuana, nor meth, nor opiates, but something like anabolic steroids). So, they wanted to check PE for those substances.

To my knowledge, LE has never indicated PE has been cleared of suspicion of involvement even as they continue to pursue tips relating to the perpetrator portrayed in the sketch released in April 2019. So, it may be that they have still not closed the door on the possibility of more than one person involved.

I was thinking that maybe they wanted a hair sample to see if he colored his hair. What color hair did Etter have?

 

[Thelastleg]

LE have partially answered this:

Q. Do you know how the murderer was able to gain control of both girls at once?

A. It is believed by manipulation and intimidation factors.

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

I doubt they want to say exactly what weapon he used to intimidate, if he did; this info would be used in interrogation and in screening tips IMO.

I have found LE's answers to be open to more than one interpretation. Manipulated, do they mean as in influencing the girls to his advantage without them being aware of his intentions until he used whatever weapon or threat to intimidate them, or manipulated as in using his hands to physically touch them.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have found LE's answers to be open to more than one interpretation. Manipulated, do they mean as in influencing the girls to his advantage without them being aware of his intentions until he used whatever weapon or threat to intimidate them, or manipulated as in using his hands to physically touch them.

I think that if LE had meant the latter definition they might have called it "force" instead of "manipulation" but of course, we have no real way of knowing.

 

[Yemelyan]

I was thinking that maybe they wanted a hair sample to see if he colored his hair. What color hair did Etter have?

He was bald on his head.