Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[TL4S]

Thank you for finding this. You’re exactly what this case needs from time to time - A Thread Historian!

Nah, I usually can't remember any sources. That one I just ran across during my wild tangent searching.

 

[Marzipan]

BG obsevation: to me he is wearing motorcycle shoes.

I didn’t know there was such a thing.

 

[MistyWaters]

A half mile from what point of thse bridge?

My understanding is the 1/2 mile upstream from the bridge is the measurement of Deer Creek beginning at the point the creek passes under the bridge, as opposed to a measurement of distance away from the bridge.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

2014

Police Calls | Carroll County Comet

April 26, 9:49 p.m. – Burglary, 5858W. 300N., Delphi. Ron Logan reported finding a person in his barn who was not authorized to be there. The unidentified person fled the barn prior to police arrival. The suspect was not located. Liggett investigated.

I didn’t realize barns had bedrooms and bathroom(s).
I am most definitely still naïve @Laughing.

 

[Boxer]

Half a mile puts the girls directly between RLs house and the creek, and in the wooded backyard of a house on 300 past the junction with 575.


Modern motorcycle shoes.
82.99US $ 45% OFF|DUHAN Motorcycle Boots Breathable Men Moto Boots Black Motorcycle Riding Boots Motorcycle Shoes Four Seasons Casual Shoes|Motocycle Boots| - AliExpress

 

[TL4S]

That puts them not just directly between RLs House and the creek, but also it literally places them in the wooded backyard of a residence on W300 N that is on the curve just past the intersection of 575.

This is why I keep pushing an unpopular issue. If the girls were located around the bottom of that watershed ravine, it could vastly change how I look at the whole story. I'm not saying this is where they were at for sure, but it fits LE's descriptions better than anywhere else (if you believe LE). Imo. And, it sheds light on LE searching RL's property so much. In the end I'll likely be wrong, but that doesn't really matter.

 

[FrostedGlass]

This is why I keep pushing an unpopular issue. If the girls were located around the bottom of that watershed ravine, it could vastly change how I look at the whole story. I'm not saying this is where they were at for sure, but it fits LE's descriptions better than anywhere else (if you believe LE). Imo. And, it sheds light on LE searching RL's property so much. In the end I'll likely be wrong, but that doesn't really matter.

That theory complicates things. As it is, it's pretty simple if he nabbed them at the end of the bridge, they ran across the creek and he got them.

 

[janewall]

That location of the depression beyond the trees is likely one of the two areas the arrows are pointing at in this attached view.

Okay, that's pretty much where I'd deduced from the various statements over the years. Thank you for your analysis.

 

[TL4S]

That theory complicates things. As it is, it's pretty simple if he nabbed them at the end of the bridge, they ran across the creek and he got them.

You're certainly right. It does. I won't deny that, but I also can't bring myself to dismiss the things LE has said.

 

[catch_22]

I wouldn't argue with anyone that said that the crime scene tape area was about 1/3 acre.

How far is it from the SE end of the high bridge to the SE end of the freedom bridge? I had no idea really. I looked at google maps and estimated it to be about a mile. I then measured it on google earth, and found it to be about 9/11th of a mile. About 1000feet less than a mile.

My point being, when LE gave these interviews, they didn't know what questions would be asked or have the luxury to use the internet or google maps or google earth to help them with their answers. They just happened to answer off the top of their heads. I don't think the exact distance was really important to them because they know where the crime scene is. It's just "a little ways" upstream from the bridge. Some people are better at estimating distances.

Also with the "hills" description, I see it kind of along the same lines. When he answered the question I doubt the detective was looking at satelite images nor topographic maps. I think he was just trying to describe what he saw from the crime scene. The crime scene tape area is in a fairly large low flat spot. I bet standing there it almost seems like you are surrounded by hills.

I think in general LE isn't very concerned about sharing super-detailed info with the media either. I see it as something like this: Reporter: "How far is it from SE end of bridge to crime scene?"
LE: (I really don't know, the exact number is really not important, I don't feel like trying to find out the answer, and I'm not sure I'd want to tell you if I did know the answer.) "About a half mile."

MOO

 

[TL4S]

I wouldn't argue with anyone that said that the crime scene tape area was about 1/3 acre.

How far is it from the SE end of the high bridge to the SE end of the freedom bridge? I had no idea really. I looked at google maps and estimated it to be about a mile. I then measured it on google earth, and found it to be about 9/11th of a mile. About 1000feet less than a mile.

My point being, when LE gave these interviews, they didn't know what questions would be asked or have the luxury to use the internet or google maps or google earth to help them with their answers. They just happened to answer off the top of their heads. I don't think the exact distance was really important to them because they know where the crime scene is. It's just "a little ways" upstream from the bridge. Some people are better at estimating distances.

Also with the "hills" description, I see it kind of along the same lines. When he answered the question I doubt the detective was looking at satelite images nor topographic maps. I think he was just trying to describe what he saw from the crime scene. The crime scene tape area is in a fairly large low flat spot. I bet standing there it almost seems like you are surrounded by hills.

I think in general LE isn't very concerned about sharing super-detailed info with the media either. I see it as something like this: Reporter: "How far is it from SE end of bridge to crime scene?"
LE: (I really don't know, the exact number is really not important, I don't feel like trying to find out the answer, and I'm not sure I'd want to tell you if I did know the answer.) "About a half mile."

MOO

I would mostly support this, despite what I've shown on the map. I agree the taped-off area looks maybe 1/3 acre and the interviews with LE making off-the-cuff distance calculations would definitely be estimates. Crime scene tape, flowers, RL interview, all point to that being the location. I could stop there.

However, the current isp.gov site and the earlier (but long after the murders) press release both state the 1/2 mile distance. These are official publications. I can't believe, in 4 years, that LE has never done a quick map measurement for accurate communication purposes.

I, like most, have assumed the crime scene to be south of the cemetery for all these years, but combine the LE sources with KR's description of "two hills on each side," which is pretty specific, imo, and it throws a shadow of doubt in my mind. There are problems with it, admittedly, and I'm not wholly set on it, but as I've said before, no LE sources have confirmed the assumed location. And, I also see benefit in the public not knowing the exact location, especially because it was on private property. Jmo.

ETA: IMO, LE officers use distance judgments for accurate shooting, traffic events, criminal investigations, etc. I honestly might be misguided, but I trust their estimates.

 

[sunshineray]

For anyone who's interested, On HLN's Part 1 Down The Hillelphi Murders documentary (done recently, not the podcast), it's 23 mins in when one of the hosts, Barbara Macdonald, says she's walking down to and then standing at the crime scene.

 

[MistyWaters]

I wouldn't argue with anyone that said that the crime scene tape area was about 1/3 acre.

How far is it from the SE end of the high bridge to the SE end of the freedom bridge? I had no idea really. I looked at google maps and estimated it to be about a mile. I then measured it on google earth, and found it to be about 9/11th of a mile. About 1000feet less than a mile.

My point being, when LE gave these interviews, they didn't know what questions would be asked or have the luxury to use the internet or google maps or google earth to help them with their answers. They just happened to answer off the top of their heads. I don't think the exact distance was really important to them because they know where the crime scene is. It's just "a little ways" upstream from the bridge. Some people are better at estimating distances.

Also with the "hills" description, I see it kind of along the same lines. When he answered the question I doubt the detective was looking at satelite images nor topographic maps. I think he was just trying to describe what he saw from the crime scene. The crime scene tape area is in a fairly large low flat spot. I bet standing there it almost seems like you are surrounded by hills.

I think in general LE isn't very concerned about sharing super-detailed info with the media either. I see it as something like this: Reporter: "How far is it from SE end of bridge to crime scene?"
LE: (I really don't know, the exact number is really not important, I don't feel like trying to find out the answer, and I'm not sure I'd want to tell you if I did know the answer.) "About a half mile."

MOO

The reason I tend to trust the appx 1/2 mile upstream from the bridge stated in the ISP press release is when this case goes to trial it’s the responsibility of LE to testify regarding the location where the bodies were discovered. I can’t imagine them just putting forth a wild guess as it would reflect poorly on the quality of the investigation in general.

 

[Boxer]

One thing is that all the investigation vehicles were at the cemetery.
Had the CS been right behind RL's wouldn't those vehicles and activies, river search have been there?

 

[sunshineray]

For anyone who's interested, On HLN's Part 1 Down The Hillelphi Murders documentary (done recently, not the podcast), it's 23 mins in when one of the hosts, Barbara Macdonald, says she's walking down to and then standing at the crime scene.

Apologies for that smiley face, unintentional.

 

[Ekliptika]

Hope I am not breaking the WS rulles about mentioning YT videos, if so I apologies. There is a video posted on YouTube recently showing the Walk from the cementery to the crime scene (not sure if the person who has uploaded the video knows for sure where the crime scene was or just his/hers interpretation/guess of the crime scene). The video adds to the visual understanding of the surroundings (if it Can be trusted as a valid source).
I am not linking to the video, as not sure if that is acceptable in here.

 

[FrostedGlass]

One thing is that all the investigation vehicles were at the cemetery.
Had the CS been right behind RL's wouldn't those vehicles and activies, river search have been there?

Parking was probably too limited. He likely has the pasture fenced off for his goats and horses; have we ever seen a pic of the front of his property? A lot of staging was done at the Mears place.

 

[catch_22]

I know LE is completely capable of measuring the distances. I just don't see how it is a critical piece of info. If they wanted to be precise, I think they would have said it was about 2600ft from the bridge as opposed to the nearest half mile. Or were they being precise? Maybe they were using sixty-fourths of a mile, but the distance just happened to be 32/64ths so they reduced it down to 1/2. If the crime scene was 80ft farther from the bridge would the official statement have been that it is 33/64ths of a mile from the bridge? I doubt it.

The hill statement: 2 hills on each side and another hill across the creek. That doesn't even make sense, or is at least somewhat ambiguous. 2 hills on each side of what? Each side of the crime scene? Ok. How many "sides" does the crime scene have? Well, what shape are we talking about? A circle? A square? An octogon? Say a square is the most likely option......4 sides......2 hills on each side......so there are 8 hills? Plus another one across the creek?

Also, I think 1/2 mile from either end of the bridge is off of RL's property. That "draw" or "ravine" on the east side of RL's property is about 3/8ths of a mile from the bridge, or about 600 feet less than a half mile. So why wouldn't LE say it was 3/8ths mile from the bridge? Are they rounding to the nearest quarter mile, and just happened to round it up (some 600 feet) to a half mile?

To me, it just doesn't make sense either way. If a half mile is a precise statement, then it is off of RL's property. If they are "rounding" the distance 600feet or more, then it is not a precise statement. Anyway, JMO. Keep fighting the good fight. May justice be served. The sooner the better.

 

[Boxer]

Parking was probably too limited. He likely has the pasture fenced off for his goats and horses; have we ever seen a pic of the front of his property? A lot of staging was done at the Mears place.

Yes. A news helicopter flew continuously over the area on Feb 14.
All personnel and vehicles were concentrated between cemetery and creek. None further up behind RLs.

 

[TL4S]

I know LE is completely capable of measuring the distances. I just don't see how it is a critical piece of info. If they wanted to be precise, I think they would have said it was about 2600ft from the bridge as opposed to the nearest half mile. Or were they being precise? Maybe they were using sixty-fourths of a mile, but the distance just happened to be 32/64ths so they reduced it down to 1/2. If the crime scene was 80ft farther from the bridge would the official statement have been that it is 33/64ths of a mile from the bridge? I doubt it.

The hill statement: 2 hills on each side and another hill across the creek. That doesn't even make sense, or is at least somewhat ambiguous. 2 hills on each side of what? Each side of the crime scene? Ok. How many "sides" does the crime scene have? Well, what shape are we talking about? A circle? A square? An octogon? Say a square is the most likely option......4 sides......2 hills on each side......so there are 8 hills? Plus another one across the creek?

Also, I think 1/2 mile from either end of the bridge is off of RL's property. That "draw" or "ravine" on the east side of RL's property is about 3/8ths of a mile from the bridge, or about 600 feet less than a half mile. So why wouldn't LE say it was 3/8ths mile from the bridge? Are they rounding to the nearest quarter mile, and just happened to round it up (some 600 feet) to a half mile?

To me, it just doesn't make sense either way. If a half mile is a precise statement, then it is off of RL's property. If they are "rounding" the distance 600feet or more, then it is not a precise statement. Anyway, JMO. Keep fighting the good fight. May justice be served. The sooner the better.

I can respect what you and others are saying about precise distance maybe not being important to LE. I can't see them calling less than a quarter mile a half mile when describing a relatively small distance, but that's only been my perspective as of lately. Like I said, the idea is problematic in other ways, and I acknowledge that. For me, though, in this matter, I'm going to look at each piece of information we have with both the south cemetery and points farther east in mind. I figure it can't hurt, since what I think about the case is really insignificant in the end, anyway. JMO

In regards to that ravine area, it is on RL's property. On the attached map, you can see it almost following the east border of his property (everything in yellow). On other maps I've added distances and it's approximately 1/2 mile.