Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Yemelyan]

I think when TL talks about the totality of the circumstances, he is using that phrase as a colloquial one, not a legal one (as noted, if referring to a legal situation in that answer, "totality of the circumstances" does not fit). Colloquially, he means exactly as @TL4S wrote - at the time the girls were found, they knew only that they had two victims' bodies at a certain location, not anything else to do with the crime such as point of egress or point of contact, etc. MOO

 

[carbuff]

I mean, I'm a fast reader but not that fast! LOL. If you use the search feature to search keywords... you might find the relevant topic quicker (on any webpage, if you're on Windows, you hold ctrl and the f keys at the same time, a search bar pops up for me in the upper right corner. Type in your search word. I used "totality" and it will highlight anywhere in the doc / page that word appears. Works on Mac too, but I don't know which two keys you have to press on Mac to make this search thing work).

It seems to apply to search and seizure / warrants. That was the general gist I got (again, at a glance!).

On the Mac, it's Command-f. Command is the key with the squiggly square on it and usually also has the word command on it.

 

[news buff]

I believe the drinking violation was a different day, actually - February 27th.

See this article: https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/del...-to-charges-unrelated-to-delphi-teens-murders

Thank you.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Reporter Rich Van Wyk of WTHR posted this video to his twitter feed (it is no longer available on his feed) on Sunday February 19th, 2017 with a post saying that family had placed flowers where the girls were found. The video is short and zooms in to show the flowers.

Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files

I have seen that I didn't set the share right for the video on my Google Drive. This link should be right.
Rich Van Wyk.mp4

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

This is from May 2019 in regards to the car at the CPS lot. I'm not sure if it's still pertinent, but I wonder what information LE had that tied that car, parked there, with the killer getting around quickly. I've seen theories it belonged to him, or someone picking him up, or a witness LE was looking for. Has it been mentioned in any interviews or podcasts lately?

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

Does LE know what kind of vehicle it is?

 

[Yemelyan]

Does LE know what kind of vehicle it is?

Unclear if they do.

One interpretation is that they are looking for info on any vehicle parked there on the day/time in question.

Another idea is that they know some things about the vehicle but did not mention them to the public in order to be sure any tips they got in reference to this matter were legit.

You can contrast this to, say, the Evansdale case where LE asked for tips regarding a certain kind of white SUV parked in a particular street/location.

 

[Ekliptika]

I have seen that I didn't set the share right for the video on my Google Drive. This link should be right.
Rich Van Wyk.mp4

Thank you.
Just need to get the direction right, is the video filmed towards the creek? So the creek would be right behind that elevation in the back Ground? I remember seeing that same elevation in the HNL documentary when the female host walks in what she claims is the crime scene area. Just wondering if this is what is meant when people describe that the girls were found in a bowl shaped area?

 

[TL4S]

Thank you.
Just need to get the direction right, is the video filmed towards the creek? So the creek would be right behind that elevation in the back Ground? I remember seeing that same elevation in the HNL documentary when the female host walks in what she claims is the crime scene area. Just wondering if this is what is meant when people describe that the girls were found in a bowl shaped area?

This location is frequently being described as hidden, out of view, even chosen ahead of time by the killer because of that fact.

I've always wondered if it is visible from the house on the north side. Can it be seen from the private drive? How about the bridge? It seems like RL always points out the bridge from there.

Using the photos, videos, and maps, I can mostly figure out where the taped-off area is located. In JM's video you can see the tape from across the creek. And I have a vague idea where the searcher was, based on KG's general description.

But wherever the bodies were actually resting low on the ground, they were clearly within view of the searcher. Wish we had some video looking north from the far easterly corner of the flat wooded area on the south side of the creek.

 

[sunshineray]

I have seen that I didn't set the share right for the video on my Google Drive. This link should be right.
Rich Van Wyk.mp4

I see absolutely no reason why the families of Abby and Libby wouldn't be shown the correct spot. That is the spot where their children were found. There's no reason to lie to them about that fact. It reveals nothing LE wants hidden, it's just the right of parents to know where their precious girls were found. AJMO...RIP Abby and Libby

 

[Ekliptika]

This location is frequently being described as hidden, out of view, even chosen ahead of time by the killer because of that fact.

I've always wondered if it is visible from the house on the north side. Can it be seen from the private drive? How about the bridge? It seems like RL always points out the bridge from there.

Using the photos, videos, and maps, I can mostly figure out where the taped-off area is located. In JM's video you can see the tape from across the creek. And I have a vague idea where the searcher was, based on KG's general description.

But wherever the bodies were actually resting low on the ground, they were clearly within view of the searcher. Wish we had some video looking north from the far easterly corner of the flat wooded area on the south side of the creek.

I have always wondered how someone standing on the South side of the Creek could spot the bodies behind that elevation. I think the searcher must have been further upstream than I originally thought, maybe also being up higher than at the bottom of the hill by the creek. Since the shoe was found and then right after the bodies spottet, I also wonder if the bodies were visible from where the shoe was found and if so if this was a coincident or intentional.

 

[Ekliptika]

I see absolutely no reason why the families of Abby and Libby wouldn't be shown the correct spot. That is the spot where their children were found. There's no reason to lie to them about that fact. It reveals nothing LE wants hidden, it's just the right of parents to know where their precious girls were found. AJMO...RIP Abby and Libby

I agree. I really hope the families knows a lot more than we do.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Thank you.
Just need to get the direction right, is the video filmed towards the creek? So the creek would be right behind that elevation in the back Ground? I remember seeing that same elevation in the HNL documentary when the female host walks in what she claims is the crime scene area. Just wondering if this is what is meant when people describe that the girls were found in a bowl shaped area?

yes, the creek is beyond there - remember the camera is being aimed to show a target on the ground. I am unclear on what people saying "bowl-shaped" area actually are referring to, but I tend to think of it as mainly the mostly tree-less area within the taped off area toward the northern end of it.

 

[janewall]

I have seen that I didn't set the share right for the video on my Google Drive. This link should be right.
Rich Van Wyk.mp4

Thank you. This snippet of video adds context.

Viewing those flowers (lilies?) is so sad.

 

[Jethro4WS]

This location is frequently being described as hidden, out of view, even chosen ahead of time by the killer because of that fact.

I've always wondered if it is visible from the house on the north side. Can it be seen from the private drive? How about the bridge? It seems like RL always points out the bridge from there.

Using the photos, videos, and maps, I can mostly figure out where the taped-off area is located. In JM's video you can see the tape from across the creek. And I have a vague idea where the searcher was, based on KG's general description.

But wherever the bodies were actually resting low on the ground, they were clearly within view of the searcher. Wish we had some video looking north from the far easterly corner of the flat wooded area on the south side of the creek.

The most important photo we have, in my opinion, is the one showing RL's dog. It is clear that the crime scene area is very visible from the vantage point. At the same time, anyone down there would have no warning whatsoever of anyone approaching from above.

And in terms of the search on the 13th in the daylight there would have been more visibility then what we see in the photos and videos from WTHR and WXIN as it was cloudy on the day they went down and around the crime scene with RL whereas the skies were clear and sunny on the 13th.

We do have such a video of a view taken from the southwest corner of the marked off crime scene than pans across from east to west. I believe this one comes from a tweet from a WTHR reporter.

CrimeSceneSWCornerCounterclockwisePan.mp4

 

[TL4S]

The most important photo we have, in my opinion, is the one showing RL's dog. It is clear that the crime scene area is very visible from the vantage point. At the same time, anyone down there would have no warning whatsoever of anyone approaching from above.

And in terms of the search on the 13th in the daylight there would have been more visibility then what we see in the photos and videos from WTHR and WXIN as it was cloudy on the day they went down and around the crime scene with RL whereas the skies were clear and sunny on the 13th.

We do have such a video of a view taken from the southwest corner of the marked off crime scene than pans across from east to west. I believe this one comes from a tweet from a WTHR reporter.

CrimeSceneSWCornerCounterclockwisePan.mp4

Thank you. I hadn't seen that one before, but it gives a really good sense of where the taped-off area is, at least from my familiarity with the map.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I have always wondered how someone standing on the South side of the Creek could spot the bodies behind that elevation. I think the searcher must have been further upstream than I originally thought, maybe also being up higher than at the bottom of the hill by the creek. Since the shoe was found and then right after the bodies spottet, I also wonder if the bodies were visible from where the shoe was found and if so if this was a coincident or intentional.

I am pretty sure that the searchers that found the girls searched from the north side from the cemetery and arrived in the orange/red pickup truck seen in the cemetery. The first attachment is a frame from the 10:43 mark of the helicopter video that shows the vehicle at the SW corner of the cemetary. If you go down the "path", really it is the path water run off takes to get to the creek you will end up at a location as seen in the second attachment from the WXIN raw footage at the 59 second mark.

One thing that is obvious is that there are paths to both the right (west) and left (east). The one to the left will come around the bottom end of the gravel pit and you will be right at the spot where the photo with RL's dog was taken. As for the path to the right, it is a path that leads from just before the north end of the bridge and ends up here. A WS member (1Nana) had gone to the bridge and taken photos of various areas a few weeks after the murders. Those photos are lost on the early threads but were saved by @No it's not and were put into a PDF. It is well worth seeing all the photos but the ones from page 27 to 29 show photos along the north along the creek with the one on page 29 showing nearly the same exact view as seen in the WXIN raw footage video.

A link to that PDF from my Google drive. Indiana Nana Binder1.pdf

 

[TL4S]

As someone who has never been to the actual location in person, I get the sense from these videos that the crime scene would indeed have been visible from the private drive and house on the south side of the creek. Does anybody know?

If L's tie-dye shirt was visible to a searcher at eye-level (or lower) from across the creek, I'm a little surprised they weren't spotted earlier from the private drive above. I'm not insinuating anything at all, I'm just surprised.

More importantly, imo, is that the crime scene is not nearly as private as I would have guessed.

 

[TL4S]

I am pretty sure that the searchers that found the girls searched from the north side from the cemetery and arrived in the orange/red pickup truck seen in the cemetery. The first attachment is a frame from the 10:43 mark of the helicopter video that shows the vehicle at the SW corner of the cemetary. If you go down the "path", really it is the path water run off takes to get to the creek you will end up at a location as seen in the second attachment from the WXIN raw footage at the 59 second mark.

One thing that is obvious is that there are paths to both the right (west) and left (east). The one to the left will come around the bottom end of the gravel pit and you will be right at the spot where the photo with RL's dog was taken. As for the path to the right, it is a path that leads from just before the north end of the bridge and ends up here. A WS member (1Nana) had gone to the bridge and taken photos of various areas a few weeks after the murders. Those photos are lost on the early threads but were saved by @No it's not and were put into a PDF. It is well worth seeing all the photos but the ones from page 27 to 29 show photos along the north along the creek with the one on page 29 showing nearly the same exact view as seen in the WXIN raw footage video.

A link to that PDF from my Google drive. Indiana Nana Binder1.pdf

It's been told by the families that the searcher spotted the girls from across the creek (south side). I'm starting to wonder if the footprints and shoe were on the south side, and that the searcher then spotted the tie-dye shirt (not the bodies) across on the north side. Search parties would have been in radio or cell contact, I assume, so maybe it was radioed about the shirt to a party on the north side, near the cemetery, who then went over the ridge and found them.???

 

[janewall]

As someone who has never been to the actual location in person, I get the sense from these videos that the crime scene would indeed have been visible from the private drive and house on the south side of the creek. Does anybody know?

If L's tie-dye shirt was visible to a searcher at eye-level (or lower) from across the creek, I'm a little surprised they weren't spotted earlier from the private drive above. I'm not insinuating anything at all, I'm just surprised.

More importantly, imo, is that the crime scene is not nearly as private as I would have guessed.

Who would have spotted them?

It would have required a resident to a) be at home and b) be looking out a window or across the lawn/property in the direction of the creek during that short amount of time. It was the middle of the afternoon and the resident(s) could have been doing many things – working, going to an appointment, vacuuming, reading, exercising – that would not have involved them gazing out at this view.

If BG was at all worried about this, he could have either verified that no one was at home, or obtained some awareness of the resident(s)' usual daytime at-home activities.

I base this on personal reality: I am at home during the day most of the time, and I don't think I spend more than fifteen or twenty minutes glancing out windows or walking around my property on an average day.

 

[TL4S]

Who would have spotted them?

It would have required a resident to a) be at home and b) be looking out a window or across the lawn/property in the direction of the creek during that short amount of time. It was the middle of the afternoon and the resident(s) could have been doing many things – working, going to an appointment, vacuuming, reading, exercising – that would not have involved them gazing out at this view.

If BG was at all worried about this, he could have either verified that no one was at home, or obtained some awareness of the resident(s)' usual daytime at-home activities.

I base this on personal reality: I am at home during the day most of the time, and I don't think I spend more than fifteen or twenty minutes glancing out windows or walking around my property on an average day.

You are right about all of that. I guess for me, the significance is in deciding between whether this was a planned or impulsive crime. It's hard to imagine the killer planning that particular spot, or preparing it with stuff beforehand (as some have suggested), when there are many more secluded locations out of view of everyone. If he had planned this, and visited the spot prior to that day, he risked being seen on any number of times he was there. I'm not discounting the possibility he did just that, but it just doesn't make sense to me.