Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[OverTheRhine]

Between Ives' statement about this being solvable in 1960 (no DNA, no cellphones) and other comments about signatures and evidence, and Carter's insistence on only needing that last piece (a name), they surely have more evidence than we know about. They've been holding things back for a trial, confessions, and verifying tips.

 

[Yemelyan]

Way old question ..... maybe someone will remember. IIRC sources said the girls’ bodies were found in a location that would be hard to reach on foot - Does anyone recall how / why on that? Was it like a really steep incline, or no path through dense trees, or what? And was it ‘hard to reach’ as in you had to walk a while, or ‘hard to reach’ as in pretty much inaccessible, or what ?

Thanks!

It was "rough terrain" - not inaccessible or far to walk, just with steep drop-offs and brush to hike through.

Here's an article where the property owner describes it:

Logan said that with the steep embankments and rough terrain on the back end of his property, it would be difficult to even make it to the location, let alone carry two bodies down and drop them off.

“For them to get from there to all the way here with that rough territory they had to walk, you couldn’t carry them in a million years or drag them or drop them off,” said Logan. “They had to walk.”

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

 

[Inthedetails]

Way old question ..... maybe someone will remember. IIRC sources said the girls’ bodies were found in a location that would be hard to reach on foot - Does anyone recall how / why on that? Was it like a really steep incline, or no path through dense trees, or what? And was it ‘hard to reach’ as in you had to walk a while, or ‘hard to reach’ as in pretty much inaccessible, or what ?

Thanks!

This map is useful, imo, of understanding how steep it is and not easy to get to:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/delphitopo-jpg.295757/

It me, it does indicate a killer who was familiar with the terrain.

jmo

 

[M. Kay]

This map is useful, imo, of understanding how steep it is and not easy to get to:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/delphitopo-jpg.295757/

It me, it does indicate a killer who was familiar with the terrain.

jmo

 

[Justice101]

It was "rough terrain" - not inaccessible or far to walk, just with steep drop-offs and brush to hike through.

Here's an article where the property owner describes it:

Logan said that with the steep embankments and rough terrain on the back end of his property, it would be difficult to even make it to the location, let alone carry two bodies down and drop them off.

“For them to get from there to all the way here with that rough territory they had to walk, you couldn’t carry them in a million years or drag them or drop them off,” said Logan. “They had to walk.”

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

Except he assumed it was down the hill from the cemetery and not across the creek from the south.

 

[Inthedetails]

Except he assumed it was down the hill from the cemetery and not across the creek from the south.

True, and someone familar with the terrain would know it was steep from the cemetery side so very unlikely a witness would come wandering down.

jmo

 

[Yemelyan]

Except he assumed it was down the hill from the cemetery and not across the creek from the south.

True, I was hoping that his answer showed what he thought the terrain on his own property was like, I didn't mean to endorse his theory of how the girls got to their final location. His theory of what happened (approx 3 days out from the murders, so clearly he hadn't been told much) doesn't seem to be consistent with what LE think happened, in the sense that he doesn't mention the creek at all.

 

[Falling Down]

True, I was hoping that his answer showed what he thought the terrain on his own property was like, I didn't mean to endorse his theory of how the girls got to their final location. His theory of what happened (approx 3 days out from the murders, so clearly he hadn't been told much) doesn't seem to be consistent with what LE think happened, in the sense that he doesn't mention the creek at all.

Correct.

Having walked some of the gorge and seen some parts from a distance, the steepness varies. For RL (late 70's at the time) to be able to walk down that slope, and back up, above the CS indicates to me that's one of the least-steep sections of the gorge along there. The path he and reporters would have taken parallels an abandoned gravel pit, in fact the top of the path is gated by the cemetery. The path itself is a driveway of sorts to the pit.

I still maintain BG knew all this well beforehand, he needed the concealment of the terrain for his crimes, but also had to know the easiest means of egress from the gorge. Which means he already knew the easiest ways out of there, which even for a healthy adult is a demanding, albeit short, hike.

I still say BG chose the shortest distances possible to carry out the crimes, and to get out of there within 20 minutes or so of the murders.

Edit: Going off of memory and videos I've seen of where RL's property meets the SE corner of the cemetery (I saw it in 2017), there are two gates. One where the fences meet, the gate between RL's property and the cemetery, which is also covered in vines, and the other gate is at the top of the path. Both locked, which in my mind would be barrier someone would not want to deal with after committing two murders down below.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

True, and someone familar with the terrain would know it was steep from the cemetery side so very unlikely a witness would come wandering down.

jmo

Would have known, too, about traffic through the cemetery, which by the way is rather small.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Way old question ..... maybe someone will remember. IIRC sources said the girls’ bodies were found in a location that would be hard to reach on foot - Does anyone recall how / why on that? Was it like a really steep incline, or no path through dense trees, or what? And was it ‘hard to reach’ as in you had to walk a while, or ‘hard to reach’ as in pretty much inaccessible, or what ?

Thanks!

Specifically where the bodies were found, no further explanation was given. But I don’t think he’s referring to the cemetery as all as it’s not “the only way to get to the site” as we know the trail leads to the bridge as well. He’s referring to where the bodies were found after the girls were instructed down the hill from the bridge IMO.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. Ron Logan has stated on news programs the only way to get to the site is over difficult terrain and private property. Given the difficulty getting to where the bodies were found, many believe the killer(s) were familiar with the area. Do you as a law enforcement officer believe that as well?

A. Very much so. It is part of the reason why we continually feel it is a “local” or someone who was very familiar with the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

I also think it’s going to be very hard to see that ‘younger BG’ sketch as the person in Libby’s phone footage. I know some do, but a vast amount of people, it seems, just can’t connect the two.

I’m just curious, I hope you don’t mind…..if you knew nothing at all about this case whatsoever and if someone were to show you these two photos without disclosing it was the same person in both, would you guess the age of man in each of the photos to be the same?

Anyone else, please feel free to chime in as well. My answer would be the man in the photo on the left appears much younger than the one in the right (although we do know it’s the same man).



Delphi community comes together to support dead teens' families

 

[Caylee Advocate]

This video shows just how loved these girls were, and still are. I sure hope justice comes soon. Someone, somewhere surely knows who did this. I still have 2 perps in mind and can't rule either of them out. Just so sad!

 

[spivey]

she sounded amazingly together and mature, but she said it’s definitely been hard the last 10-ish days.

I’ve been keeping up on this case since the beginning . I have heard several interviews with KG. Every time I listen to an interview, I am impressed with her composure in the face of devastation. It can’t be easy to mourn the loss of your sister while also making yourself available for media interviews to keep the story alive. What an incredible big sister. She should be proud of herself, I’m sure Abby and Libby are.

Edit: typo

 

[Inthedetails]

Correct.

Having walked some of the gorge and seen some parts from a distance, the steepness varies. For RL (late 70's at the time) to be able to walk down that slope, and back up, above the CS indicates to me that's one of the least-steep sections of the gorge along there. The path he and reporters would have taken parallels an abandoned gravel pit, in fact the top of the path is gated by the cemetery. The path itself is a driveway of sorts to the pit.

I still maintain BG knew all this well beforehand, he needed the concealment of the terrain for his crimes, but also had to know the easiest means of egress from the gorge. Which means he already knew the easiest ways out of there, which even for a healthy adult is a demanding, albeit short, hike.

I still say BG chose the shortest distances possible to carry out the crimes, and to get out of there within 20 minutes or so of the murders.

Edit: Going off of memory and videos I've seen of where RL's property meets the SE corner of the cemetery (I saw it in 2017), there are two gates. One where the fences meet, the gate between RL's property and the cemetery, which is also covered in vines, and the other gate is at the top of the path. Both locked, which in my mind would be barrier someone would not want to deal with after committing two murders down below.

JMO

What your guess be for an escape route he might have taken from the site - back the way they came?

jmo

 

[knuterocknes]

I’ve been keeping up on this case since the beginning . I have heard several interviews with KG. Every time I listen to an interview, I am impressed with her composure in the face of devastation. It can’t be easy to mourn the loss of your sister while also making yourself available for media interviews to keep the story alive. What an incredible big sister. She should be proud of herself, I’m sure Abby and Libby are.

KG is an incredible person and I wish more people involved with researching this case would listen to her. I'm apart of a Facebook group for Delphi and they'll praise KG, but then do everything that she tells people not to do.

 

[Finlay]

I’m just curious, I hope you don’t mind…..if you knew nothing at all about this case whatsoever and if someone were to show you these two photos without disclosing it was the same person in both, would you guess the age of man in each of the photos to be the same?

Anyone else, please feel free to chime in as well. My answer would be the man in the photo on the left appears much younger than the one in the right (although we do know it’s the same man).


View attachment 297634
Delphi community comes together to support dead teens' families

Absolutely I would say it's the same person. How i would describe the person(s) in the pictures if I were asked to use one word & asked to judge by the stillframes alone, I would say "inebriated". And as to the age of the person, I would say that the still frames do not even begin to show enough detail about the person for me to frame a judgement. The fact that the images seem to show someone that is leaning & possibly walking in an unstable manner might lead me to believe that they could be practiced in the "art of being a drunk" - which could lead me to believe that they have spent years "working" on their drinking habits. However, I would add that I would be the first to immediately amend my judgement once I had viewed the snippet of "video" that LE put together, and after having heard more detailsnthat LE provided which was based on eyewitnesses, sketches, and even the very vague info that LE provided about the crime.

 

[MistyWaters]

Absolutely I would say it's the same person. How i would describe the person(s) in the pictures if I were asked to use one word & asked to judge by the stillframes alone, I would say "inebriated". And as to the age of the person, I would say that the still frames do not even begin to show enough detail about the person for me to frame a judgement. The fact that the images seem to show someone that is leaning & possibly walking in an unstable manner might lead me to believe that they could be practiced in the "art of being a drunk" - which could lead me to believe that they have spent years "working" on their drinking habits. However, I would add that I would be the first to immediately amend my judgement once I had viewed the snippet of "video" that LE put together, and after having heard more detailsnthat LE provided which was based on eyewitnesses, sketches, and even the very vague info that LE provided about the crime.

I agree, guessing an individuals age in person is often hard plus viewing a poor quality frame obviously increases the difficulty. Also I think we can probably all recall casual photos we’ve taken where certain people we know very well who are almost unrecognizable for whatever reason, often because it’s not a full facial photo. As in this case, the subject is looking downward. When the first sketch was released many WS members were shocked at the sketch of the older guy and so the reversal by others now is interesting.

It also wouldn’t surprise me if the man on the bridge is drunk, or pretending to be, and was weaving his way across the bridge from side to side. That would be a good reason for the girls to continue on toward the end of the bridge, hoping he might turn back. That he didn’t, for that same reason they may’ve just ignored him until he spoke the word “guys”. I’d thought of this several times in addition to the fact someone appearing inebriated is often considered less threatening - “a harmless drunk” - than possible danger posed by a “creepy” guy.

 

[Falling Down]

What your guess be for an escape route he might have taken from the site - back the way they came?

jmo

The image I attached shows the trail which leads from the NW approach to MHB, down to the general area of the CS less than 1/4 mile walk from there. I believe the killer used this trail or perhaps another, more challenging trail, to get out of the gorge after leaving the CS.

I was surprised to see how easy it is to access this trail, it is on the M family property. There are videos on YT showing how easy it is to navigate this trail, in fact in February it would have been downright easy, due to the lack of vegetation.

I'll go along with what LE has indicated for some time now, that BG used the main trail to get back to a vehicle at the abandoned CPS building. The traffic on the trail happens in what I call "bursts", and BG had to know this. I noticed it when I was there in October, one minute you're around 20 other people on the trail, next minute you're alone.

He would have had a little bit of concealment for a vehicle there, plus the traffic is sparse on C.R. 300 to begin with. Versus parking on the other side of IN 25, and walking across Freedom Bridge like most people do.

I hope this helps, I try to use some logic and a general sense that BG had to conserve energy and make his movements as short as possible that day.

If BG did indeed get back on to the main trail near to the bridge, it would have taken him mere minutes to get back to the building, maybe 12 minutes.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

@Falling Down

We need a link for that image or it will be removed.

 

[Falling Down]

The image I attached shows the trail which leads from the NW approach to MHB, down to the general area of the CS less than 1/4 mile walk from there. I believe the killer used this trail or perhaps another, more challenging trail, to get out of the gorge after leaving the CS.

I was surprised to see how easy it is to access this trail, it is on the M family property. There are videos on YT showing how easy it is to navigate this trail, in fact in February it would have been downright easy, due to the lack of vegetation.

I'll go along with what LE has indicated for some time now, that BG used the main trail to get back to a vehicle at the abandoned CPS building. The traffic on the trail happens in what I call "bursts", and BG had to know this. I noticed it when I was there in October, one minute you're around 20 other people on the trail, next minute you're alone.

He would have had a little bit of concealment for a vehicle there, plus the traffic is sparse on C.R. 300 to begin with. Versus parking on the other side of IN 25, and walking across Freedom Bridge like most people do.

I hope this helps, I try to use some logic and a general sense that BG had to conserve energy and make his movements as short as possible that day.

If BG did indeed get back on to the main trail near to the bridge, it would have taken him mere minutes to get back to the building, maybe 12 minutes.

JMO

Linked image (thanks @Sillybilly):