Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[SMK777]

Or is right in front of everyone's eyes, everyday.

Well, that certainly was the case with BTK, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, etc….

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Would it be a waste of police time and resources for people who were in Delphi that afternoon from noon to 5pm to be contacting LE?

But in all fairness, I don’t think a PC from over two years ago is fresh at the top of most people’s minds.

JMO

I'm not sure I understand your comment... or you didn't understand mine.
I'm referring to the car in particular and whether or not people should still be giving tips if it isn't relevant or no longer connected. Just as if the police were allowing a person who may have been a suspect but isn't, to continue to be viewed as one and have everyone in town call on said person. To me that is a waste of time and resources.

 

[heartgoesout]

MOO- I just have a hard time believing that LE has a suspect and is just sitting on this info. What if the guy commits more crimes and hurts someone else while LE waits? Has this happened in other cases that any of you know about? Admittedly, I have limited knowledge of how this stuff all works but I just cant wrap my head around knowing who killed 2 kids and not being able to do anything about it. If they know for sure, wouldnt that be enough to arrest the person?

Yes, I can think of several but one example is Holly Grim. She disappeared from her home in 11/2017. LE was very quiet and years went by. Then completely out of the blue they arrested her coworker. Seems LE knew from the beginning he killed her. He even submitted DNA that matched blood on the door of her home. We don't know what finally prompted the arrest. His trial keeps getting pushed back. I can't wait to understand why they didn't arrest him for so long and what exactly changed the day they did.

 

[Boxer]

I think the “new direction” that LE spoke of in 2019 meant a few things:


LE (finally) caught on to the fact that BG had led them in the wrong direction with his staging & whatnot. Whether figuring this out came via a lead, or otherwise, they now have quite literally taking things in a new direction. (e.g. southwest/east of Delphi, or northeast/west of Delphi, etc.). And since many of us believe that that 2019 presser was directed to/at solely BG, I strongly feel & think that LE quite literally changed their cardinal direction to another place in IN, other than Delphi.

And I don’t think that LE is really, truly asking for the public’s help. I think that LE already knows who BG is, or rather even has a very strong sense/idea of who he is. And because of this, they know that this vehicle is tied to him. And he knows that they know. And really they are in some way, shape, form or fashion trying to put a lot pressure on a possible accessory, whose vehicle at the CPS building really belongs to, hoping that he/she will crack.

Obviously I could be waaayyy off, and this is just my .02 cents.


All just MOO.

MOO and more MOO:
I think deputies talked to someone on 2/13/17 when they responded to the 911 call.
MOO the deputies didn't get a name, as someone casually asked them what was going on, now they think they talked to the BG, which is what Carter talking was about.

 

[heartgoesout]

Another example is Stephanie Roof. Her neighbor killed her with a homemade potato gun he made. LE took months to make the arrest because they had to recreate/rebuilt the potato gun and then do forensic testing to show a jury that a potato gun could in fact kill. Months and months went by seemingly with no suspects and that the case was cold but they knew from day one.
So the question remains with Delphi, what is the one piece of the puzzle they don't have for an arrest?

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks, that observation is new to me & its really interesting!

My hypothesis MOO is that BG was basically homeless, if so he wouldn’t really have a reason to go back into town …. or anywhere else in particular other than away from the crime scene. If he just tramped off down the RxR tracks or whatever, he’d be able to get a good head start before anyone was even looking for him.

Any thoughts on that based on having seen the spot - could departure on foot work if he wasn’t headed anywhere in particular?

I may have screwed up and said here he could have walked to Logansport, that's over 24 miles away. So no dice there. I thought that may have been an escape route some time ago. I dunno if he did hitchhike I figure we would have known by now. I thought maybe that town because it's the next decent-sized town north of Delphi, plus there's a RR junction and yard there.

As folks have noted here there are woods along Deer Creek in spots, common for northern IN. That is yes we do have woods, but they're usually near or along waterways. The soil is so good most of the region in arable land and thus farms of various types. My opinion is then that there really are not a lot of places to hide, so to speak. Some here have argued the opposite, but in my opinion we don't have much of a "people living in the woods" population here across the northern tier of the state. If there are any, they're along waterways is some spots, but I've yet to read about any people living in the woods along the creeks leading into the Wabash R.

JMO

Thanks, that observation is new to me & its really interesting!

My hypothesis MOO is that BG was basically homeless, if so he wouldn’t really have a reason to go back into town …. or anywhere else in particular other than away from the crime scene. If he just tramped off down the RxR tracks or whatever, he’d be able to get a good head start before anyone was even looking for him.

Any thoughts on that based on having seen the spot - could departure on foot work if he wasn’t headed anywhere in particular?

Thanks, that observation is new to me & its really interesting!

My hypothesis MOO is that BG was basically homeless, if so he wouldn’t really have a reason to go back into town …. or anywhere else in particular other than away from the crime scene. If he just tramped off down the RxR tracks or whatever, he’d be able to get a good head start before anyone was even looking for him.

Any thoughts on that based on having seen the spot - could departure on foot work if he wasn’t headed anywhere in particular?

He would have had very few options on foot, I've considered Logansport but that's no dice, too far to walk. I just think the risk of being seen was way too high for BG had he walked away. I'd also considered a possible path to Riley Park from the bridge, but there isn't one. His only choices on foot a short distance from the trail were a handful of roads. Nowhere really to hide.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

No doubt, the public is not tasked with solving this crime, but LE certainly has consistently over four years been asking for for the public’s help. Help us identify the person on the bridge, help identify the guy in the sketch(s), etc. Poor tips have been a bane of this investigation I’m sure. But why should any of that, or any thing prevent LE from releasing a bit more information in an effort to solve the case that has not been solved yet in four years. Why would they not try that? If TL’s statement above is true, that the killer has simply not told anyone else, what other choice is there? No one then is going to call up with that last piece of the puzzle, but maybe someone will recognize something in the evidence that will point to someone. It’s worth a try in my opinion.

We can wish LE would release more evidence all we want but it’s LE who knows what they have and if it would be helpful. LE has responded to the public grievance about not releasing more information a few times. Even though LE has asked the public for tips to assist in solving this crime, LE has never put the public in charge over their decision making.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The lack of communication on the part of your department and law enforcement is a significant concern for many individuals. The exception seems to be the families of the victims. Why do you think this is the case?

A. I respectfully disagree with this statement. As I have said since the beginning, much of what we “protect” and keep “close to the vest” is preserved for the courtroom and trial. To release too much information would, in my opinion, potentially “taint” a jury before a trial even begins. And, as most know, the “double jeopardy” clause exists in the US Constitution which means, in short, the Prosecutor only has one chance at prosecuting this case. I feel, as Sheriff, I have been very open and accessible, at least to main stream media, and answered most questions reasonably.

 

[MistyWaters]

Another example is Stephanie Roof. Her neighbor killed her with a homemade potato gun he made. LE took months to make the arrest because they had to recreate/rebuilt the potato gun and then do forensic testing to show a jury that a potato gun could in fact kill. Months and months went by seemingly with no suspects and that the case was cold but they knew from day one.
So the question remains with Delphi, what is the one piece of the puzzle they don't have for an arrest?

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The public has heard for four years, the investigation “is one puzzle piece from being solved.” What is that one piece specifically? Is it a name? Is it Jon Doe told me he killed the kids? Or, are you looking for confirmation of what you know- Jon Doe was not at work, he has a blue jacket, he cut his hair on Feb 14 or I saw a guy with a bloody jacket at 4 p.m. on Feb 13 at the gas station? You are not giving the public a lot to work with yet no arrests in four years. Aren’t you worried about more victims? Is the suspect dead or incarcerated so that is why no press conference or additional information is being released?

A. The person specifically responsible for Abby and Libby’s death. Our team of trained, experienced, and professional investigators will know that “one piece” when they see it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not sure I understand your comment... or you didn't understand mine.
I'm referring to the car in particular and whether or not people should still be giving tips if it isn't relevant or no longer connected. Just as if the police were allowing a person who may have been a suspect but isn't, to continue to be viewed as one and have everyone in town call on said person. To me that is a waste of time and resources.

What tips are being given about a unidentified vehicle other than what LE asked of anyone who was in Delphi the day of the murders who observed a vehicle parked from noon to 5pm? I’d be very surprised if two years later people are still coming toward recalling what they saw parked where, wasting LE’s time and energy.

As for someone who’s viewed as a suspect, if LE didn’t cause the suspicion neither do they have the ability to control what people might think. Viewing this case through the lens of SM is probably far different than from those who are local because they have the distinct advantage of talking amongst one another, which includes talking to LE.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

We can wish LE would release more evidence all we want but it’s LE who knows what they have and if it would be helpful. LE has responded to the public grievance about not releasing more information a few times. Even though LE has asked the public for tips to assist in solving this crime, LE has never put the public in charge over their decision making.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The lack of communication on the part of your department and law enforcement is a significant concern for many individuals. The exception seems to be the families of the victims. Why do you think this is the case?

A. I respectfully disagree with this statement. As I have said since the beginning, much of what we “protect” and keep “close to the vest” is preserved for the courtroom and trial. To release too much information would, in my opinion, potentially “taint” a jury before a trial even begins. And, as most know, the “double jeopardy” clause exists in the US Constitution which means, in short, the Prosecutor only has one chance at prosecuting this case. I feel, as Sheriff, I have been very open and accessible, at least to main stream media, and answered most questions reasonably.

My point is only that we are four plus years out and no one has been arrested so why not release a little information in hopes of moving toward that. I certainly don’t expect the public to solve it, but LE certainly seems to want the public’s help. If their case is so precarious that they can’t find a couple extra things to release to try and jar a tip from someone, this case is colder than we thought.
LE has talked a lot in this case. Friendly. Approachable. Sound and fury signifying nothing.
We want the same thing I know. We’re just disagreeing about this one thing.

 

[Yemelyan]

My point is only that we are four plus years out and no one has been arrested so why not release a little information in hopes of moving toward that. I certainly don’t expect the public to solve it, but LE certainly seems to want the public’s help. If their case is so precarious that they can’t find a couple extra things to release to try and jar a tip from someone, this case is colder than we thought.
LE has talked a lot in this case. Friendly. Approachable. Sound and fury signifying nothing.
We want the same thing I know. We’re just disagreeing about this one thing.

Just one thought I had....we know from Ives' statements that the crime scene was not just "a person was killed here" scene. So we can infer from that, that it's not likely that the girls were marched to that area, shot (for example) and then the killer just walked away. That's Ives example of a regular "person was killed here" scene. So certain things apparently happened that were above and beyond that scenario.

We also know that Indiana tends to be a more conservative part of the country. And we heard Carter say in the April press conference "how you left them is NOT...what they are experiencing today."

So, is it a possibility that LE has made a decision to be more conservative than usual in what they reveal in an attempt to preserve the privacy of the girls and the families? Especially given the victims' ages?

I wouldn't want to speculate about what those details might be, but they could be disturbing enough or destructive to innocence that the decision has been made that the killer is not going to get the satisfaction of having those details out there. In fact, LE could have come to the conclusion that the killer gets even more enjoyment out of having his deeds broadcast.

So then you get to the question of what is more important, preservation of privacy or solving the case? I honestly don't know what the right strategy is at this point because I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes of this investigation. I do think about the April Tinsley case, where a certain unique "instrument" was found with her body (not a weapon) and this was not released for over a decade. Perhaps this was because it was felt to be inappropriate to be mentioned in the news. Or maybe, as I mentioned above, authorities felt it would escalate the offender. Ultimately when the information was released it didn't help identify the killer anyway.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just one thought I had....we know from Ives' statements that the crime scene was not just "a person was killed here" scene. So we can infer from that, that it's not likely that the girls were marched to that area, shot (for example) and then the killer just walked away. That's Ives example of a regular "person was killed here" scene. So certain things apparently happened that were above and beyond that scenario.

We also know that Indiana tends to be a more conservative part of the country. And we heard Carter say in the April press conference "how you left them is NOT...what they are experiencing today."

So, is it a possibility that LE has made a decision to be more conservative than usual in what they reveal in an attempt to preserve the privacy of the girls and the families? Especially given the victims' ages?

I wouldn't want to speculate about what those details might be, but they could be disturbing enough or destructive to innocence that the decision has been made that the killer is not going to get the satisfaction of having those details out there. In fact, LE could have come to the conclusion that the killer gets even more enjoyment out of having his deeds broadcast.

So then you get to the question of what is more important, preservation of privacy or solving the case? I honestly don't know what the right strategy is at this point because I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes of this investigation. I do think about the April Tinsley case, where a certain unique "instrument" was found with her body (not a weapon) and this was not released for over a decade. Perhaps this was because it was felt to be inappropriate to be mentioned in the news. Or maybe, as I mentioned above, authorities felt it would escalate the offender. Ultimately when the information was released it didn't help identify the killer anyway.

I want LE to be sensitive to the girls and to the families. We all want that. The public doesn’t need to know everything that happened to these children. We don’t need an autopsy report or even a cause of death. After four years though, at a crime scene with supposedly lots of evidence, there is something that is unique enough that maybe somebody might make connection. Why not try.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think there is a delicate balance for LE between releasing enough information to keep the public's attention on the case and to keep pressure on anyone in the killer's life who may know/suspect his involvement, and releasing so much that they have no holdback info for interrogation. Because no matter how strong their evidence is, their ultimate goal is to talk to the suspect and gain an incriminating statement, if not a confession.

I was reading a book about the Green River Killer written by reporters who followed the task force from its beginning. In some victims, Ridgway had inserted pyramidal rocks and this fact was held back from the press. When they brought in a suspect for interrogation on some occasions (not sure if they did this for Ridgway but they did this for others), they put these rocks, unlabeled as to what exactly they were, in the room with the suspect and observed his behavior and reaction. Can you imagine the reaction of someone who was innocent but had read in a newspaper about the rocks, when faced with evidence like this? It would likely be nervousness, etc - not all that different from the behavior of someone who was guilty of using them and surprised to know that their purpose had been found out. Having this info out there may have slightly increased the chance that an intimate partner of the killer tipped him in, but on the other hand greatly robbed the investigators of an interrogation tactic.

Investigators also felt, as they may feel in Delphi, that some of these details could recur in future crimes and they want to be able to observe that linkage in the unfortunate event that he kills again. They don't want to let him know everything they are aware of that he did. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I want LE to be sensitive to the girls and to the families. We all want that. The public doesn’t need to know everything that happened to these children. We don’t need an autopsy report or even a cause of death. After four years though, at a crime scene with supposedly lots of evidence, there is something that is unique enough that maybe somebody might make connection. Why not try.

Ives comment insinuates “physical evidence” refers to objects. But if it’s not what one worked imagine what’s the point of mentioning it? It’s cryptic comments like this which cause frustration IMO.

“Now, Ives reveals that the crime scene was nothing like murders he had encountered in the past, where typically a body is found with some evidence such as shell casings present…..

….There was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene,' Ives said. 'And it's probably not what you would imagine, or what people would think I'm talking about.' ..”
Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

 

[Turkeytrot]

I had a dream last night that there was an arrest in this case. I've had that happen before with a case and other events, hoping beyond hope this one comes true. *Fingers crossed*

 

[SMK777]

I had a dream last night that there was an arrest in this case. I've had that happen before with a case and other events, hoping beyond hope this one comes true. *Fingers crossed*

Yes, *fingers crossed*!

 

[WildHuncher]

I may have screwed up and said here he could have walked to Logansport, that's over 24 miles away. So no dice there.

I used to do a lot of long runs training for marathons. You can do a lot with a couple of bottles of Gatorade in a belt holster and perhaps some cash for a convenience store refill. It's not that unthinkable for a young, fit guy to walk 24 miles, especially if he's planned it and has good shoes, carb snacks, and liquids. Or he can just hit a convenience store or two along the way.

But I doubt if you plan a murder where you walk 24 miles from the murder scene back to your house. Just for one thing, if you also walk TO the murder site, now it's a 48 mile hike, round trip. And BG had no way of knowing anyone of interest would be at the bridge that day.

 

[minazoe]

ok I'm still on JBC..and today as I was looking at all of the press on-line and everything came to an abrupt halt 30 or so days ago with no updates , other than on Heavy.com which popped up recently...

so something has to happen because JBC cannot get a fair trial having the possibility that he is BG hanging over his head in the media..he can use this as leverage if they don't come out and clear him...

so something has to happen..it is so obviously completely under wraps and is completely shut down to outside inquiry.

mOO

 

[CNYDarkStar]

I used to do a lot of long runs training for marathons. You can do a lot with a couple of bottles of Gatorade in a belt holster and perhaps some cash for a convenience store refill. It's not that unthinkable for a young, fit guy to walk 24 miles, especially if he's planned it and has good shoes, carb snacks, and liquids. Or he can just hit a convenience store or two along the way.

But I doubt if you plan a murder where you walk 24 miles from the murder scene back to your house. Just for one thing, if you also walk TO the murder site, now it's a 48 mile hike, round trip. And BG had no way of knowing anyone of interest would be at the bridge that day.

Something tells me this guy ain't a fit hiker/ walker

 

[jg580]

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The public has heard for four years, the investigation “is one puzzle piece from being solved.” What is that one piece specifically? Is it a name? Is it Jon Doe told me he killed the kids? Or, are you looking for confirmation of what you know- Jon Doe was not at work, he has a blue jacket, he cut his hair on Feb 14 or I saw a guy with a bloody jacket at 4 p.m. on Feb 13 at the gas station? You are not giving the public a lot to work with yet no arrests in four years. Aren’t you worried about more victims? Is the suspect dead or incarcerated so that is why no press conference or additional information is being released?

A. The person specifically responsible for Abby and Libby’s death. Our team of trained, experienced, and professional investigators will know that “one piece” when they see it.

Am I understanding this correctly that essentially what they are looking for from the public is for someone to come to them and tell them who the murderer is? Maybe im misunderstanding? If that is what he meant, what if no one in the public knows? Didn't someone in LE say previously that they don't believe this guy told anyone what he did?