Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Yemelyan]

We don't know if these words were said sequentially. Could be only part of another utterance like "Guys! Give me that phone!" Lib throws it and accidentally falls, or he grabs it and she falls. . Maybe he's on the lam hiding from le or something. Abby hangs around trying to see what happemef to Libby, if she's alive, if she can save her.
At this point maybe BG has the phone md orders Abby down the hill. He forces her to drag Libby's inert body a ways up the creek and then kills her. He left little dna at the crime scene since Libby passed from injuries in the fall, and he either shot or sliced Abbys throat.
It would be simple. But what gets me, why would they not tell the public in this scenario? Therefore, I think while it's plausible, it's probably not the key. How neatly, I think publicity is holding back a lot of details because of the the firestorm that will ensue. Too late though, the eyes of the world are on Delphi. Time for ground truth.

Nothing personal, but I'm not sure this theory holds water. We don't know with 100% certainty whether he said "guys...down the hill" sequentially but we have a person who has supposedly listened to the entire unedited sequence, Abby's mom, who said that there are only a few seconds of pause between "guys" and "down the hill." So that's a pretty good source indicating that there's not a lot of dialogue or time in between those words. IMO based on what she said, it's basically one sequential phrase. The gap between the two, she says, is one of the girls saying "huh? hm"

This is about 20 minutes into the linked interview:

AW: There is less than a 3 second gap in Guys down the hill…. There’s not long minutes of pause, there is seconds of pause.

Source:

We also know that from TL's interview in The Carroll County Comet Q&A that the location where these words were uttered was the south end of the High Bridge. It wasn't "guys..." somewhere else and then "down the hill" in another location. County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

And we know from TL's interview in the HLN podcast Down the Hill that "guys...down the hill" is the only audio from the man that he's aware of. So if BG said "Guys! Give me that phone!" and then at some later point says "down the hill," we know from TL's statement that LE is either unaware of the "give me that phone" part (or whatever could be posited) or this part is unintelligible. Chapter 10: Four Years - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

 

[MistyWaters]

We don't know if these words were said sequentially. Could be only part of another utterance like "Guys! Give me that phone!" Lib throws it and accidentally falls, or he grabs it and she falls. . Maybe he's on the lam hiding from le or something. Abby hangs around trying to see what happemef to Libby, if she's alive, if she can save her.
At this point maybe BG has the phone md orders Abby down the hill. He forces her to drag Libby's inert body a ways up the creek and then kills her. He left little dna at the crime scene since Libby passed from injuries in the fall, and he either shot or sliced Abbys throat.
It would be simple. But what gets me, why would they not tell the public in this scenario? Therefore, I think while it's plausible, it's probably not the key. How neatly, I think publicity is holding back a lot of details because of the the firestorm that will ensue. Too late though, the eyes of the world are on Delphi. Time for ground truth.

If Libby was 80 feet away when she caught the snippet of video of the man on the bridge, (according to GH’s analysis of background images) as the man was looking downward he wouldn’t have noticed. If he’d been closer looking directly at Libby noticing her with her camera I’m certain LE would’ve released a closer, clearer photo.

A few other things we know that are contradicted by your theory
- If he was wanted by LE, why go to a public trail?
- LE have said the killer used intimidation and manipulation.
- But most significantly, according to the FBI posters Libby was twice the weight of Abby, no way would’ve it been physically possible for her to drag her friend’s body anywhere.

JMO

One thing though, I wonder if the “insider” was insinuating that drowning deaths occurred. And if bodies were drug through a creek, one at a time, one would assume they had to have been bound - if there was one perp and two victims - otherwise it would’ve posed an opportunity for either of the victims to escape and seek help. While they stuck together, I think it’s a stretch if one or another awaited their death after fully realizing the danger they faced.

Occam’s Razor, the girls were either forced to cross the creek through the use of trickery or fear tactics or took the chance to flee across it. JMO

 

[minazoe]

I believe there was a fight. I also think that they have stopped investigating and have someone in their sights. mOO

 

[WildHuncher]

And if bodies were drug through a creek, one at a time, one would assume they had to have been bound - if there was one perp and two victims - otherwise it would’ve posed an opportunity for either of the victims to escape and seek help. While they stuck together, I think it’s a stretch if one or another awaited their death after fully realizing the danger they faced.

If one accepts the supposed insider scoop that Libby was dragged a long way and got massively bruised in the process, the implication is that Abby was in some fashion out of commission during this time. Dead, unconscious, or bound. "Bound" strikes me as having the same problem as dragging. While you tie one up, the other gets away, claws at your eyes, whatever.

I'm at about 50-50 on whether "insider" is really an insider. Wish we had a clearer report.

 

[Charlot123]

.

I forget anything I heard about a shoe-tree. It was an incredibly rambling phone call with much arguing to no apparent point about what part of the sattelite map to bring up. GH divided his time between urging caller to get to the point and interrupting him as he seemed to be getting there.

Caller is a person who knows a person with inside info. GH believes caller's source because some things caller told him in 2017 have "proved out" since.

Summary of points I noted affirmed by caller but not by police statements:

Killer remained in the area 20 minutes after Libby's father arrived and started his search. Caller and GH speculate at length about how LE can know this.

The girls were killed on the near side of the creek and transported to the far side.

Libby had serious bruised wrists from being dragged.

Caller speculates that BG could carry Abby but not Libby across the creek.

Caller speculates that dragging Libby could have produced her state of partial nudity, as police found no clear killer DNA at the scene. They were stunned to find none. All they have is touch DNA.

Crime scene tech noted to caller's source that "everyone just did their own thing" in processing the scene. This the tech remarked as never having seen before.

I'm sure there was more but that's what stands out the morning after.

Thank you very much for summarizing it!

Maybe there was no DNA, but if it is true, that Libby was dragged, what about good old criminology work? Using scotch tape for fibers, hair. Dragging means serious contact with the perpetrator. If the girls were stabbed, was any of the blood that of the killer? Was it looked for? I mean, can we believe that there was such huge contact, and nothing on the girls?

 

[Charlot123]

WARNING: GRAPHIC INFORMATION:
One of the things that was mentioned in the call (in the Grey Hughes video) is that the crime was sexually motivated ( I am paraphrasing) but that there was no actual physical sexual assault.
It seems that they are leaning towards the killer pleasuring himself while looking at the scene.
I know how harsh that is- but it DOES give us a little insight into motivation and how this sicko's mind works.

AMOO JMO MOO

Was he looking at them from afar? Do you remember DC’s strange words: “as he stood there on his first day”.
Was his “first day” when the girls were killed, and he stood, looking at them from afar?

 

[Charlot123]

So not only were they killed in broad daylight on an unseasonably warm day with no witnesses who even saw the girls there that day, but they were dragged across a creek and up a little hill? Two of them? Was it one by one they were dragged?

And again we are coming to the time slot. Did anyone, for own reasons, gave the more narrow slot than it really was?

 

[MistyWaters]

Was he looking at them from afar? Do you remember DC’s strange words: “as he stood there on his first day”.
Was his “first day” when the girls were killed, and he stood, looking at them from afar?

Quote from DTH as transcribed by Cujenn81 post #901, note the word “even if”.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

BBM

DTH:
Do you think there could be that element?
That he’s watching? He’s that close now?

DC:
Probably, yeah.
Yeah, whoever it is, and whoever it was, has stared at this nature reserve like we are right now. I know that. Even if it was his first day, he stood right here. Stood right here, yeah.

More from DTH, perplexing -

DTH:
You know, one of the things that we kinda talk about within a story is when you don’t know what happened, usually the simplest explanation is what happened.

When we find out what happened here, do you think it’s going to be simple?
Is it going to be the simplest explanation?

DC:
No, I don’t think so, and that’s just my own personal opinion. Because, it’s uh, it’s complex.

It’s—from what happened down there to what happened over there is complex. And, there’s not a simple explanation.

Ya know, if—I mean, if you and I were standing on this bridge, and you pushed me off and I died. Simple explanation, right? Or I jumped, simple explanation. Tragic — but simple explanation. It’s something that’s not, that’s not like this.

 

[sunshineray]

Quote from DTH as transcribed by Cujenn81 post #901, note the word “even if”.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

BBM

DTH:
Do you think there could be that element?
That he’s watching? He’s that close now?

DC:
Probably, yeah.
Yeah, whoever it is, and whoever it was, has stared at this nature reserve like we are right now. I know that. Even if it was his first day, he stood right here. Stood right here, yeah.

More from DTH, perplexing -

DTH:
You know, one of the things that we kinda talk about within a story is when you don’t know what happened, usually the simplest explanation is what happened.

When we find out what happened here, do you think it’s going to be simple?
Is it going to be the simplest explanation?

DC:
No, I don’t think so, and that’s just my own personal opinion. Because, it’s uh, it’s complex.

It’s—from what happened down there to what happened over there is complex. And, there’s not a simple explanation.

Ya know, if—I mean, if you and I were standing on this bridge, and you pushed me off and I died. Simple explanation, right? Or I jumped, simple explanation. Tragic — but simple explanation. It’s something that’s not, that’s not like this.

I think someone's video equipment captured BG from a distance. Just like DG was captured arriving, maybe BG was seen already on the trail or coming out of the woodland border over by that sign, pausing there. ISP Carter sounds like he's stating a straight-up fact, not a conjecture. IMO

 

[Charlot123]

If Libby was 80 feet away when she caught the snippet of video of the man on the bridge, (according to GH’s analysis of background images) as the man was looking downward he wouldn’t have noticed. If he’d been closer looking directly at Libby noticing her with her camera I’m certain LE would’ve released a closer, clearer photo.

A few other things we know that are contradicted by your theory
- If he was wanted by LE, why go to a public trail?
- LE have said the killer used intimidation and manipulation.
- But most significantly, according to the FBI posters Libby was twice the weight of Abby, no way would’ve it been physically possible for her to drag her friend’s body anywhere.

JMO

One thing though, I wonder if the “insider” was insinuating that drowning deaths occurred. And if bodies were drug through a creek, one at a time, one would assume they had to have been bound - if there was one perp and two victims - otherwise it would’ve posed an opportunity for either of the victims to escape and seek help. While they stuck together, I think it’s a stretch if one or another awaited their death after fully realizing the danger they faced.

Occam’s Razor, the girls were either forced to cross the creek through the use of trickery or fear tactics or took the chance to flee across it. JMO

I agree. The only way one person, even strong, could have dragged Libby’s body, would be if he used a raincoat tent, or something that would make kind of a lever. (If there was a wheelbarrow next to the deer stand, for example). That could work. Or, we can discuss it till the cows come home, and not understand, because we don’t know the intricacies of that creek. I suspect there are, and this is the main reason why LE think he is local. I think he may be not. Heck, he might have never been to that place, but had a friend from Delphi, who, drunk, could once be telling about peculiarities of his hometown. After that, maybe two trips, and he knows the details.

Even easier - there are probably hiking and trails sites, that might be these killers’ haven. I saw the BridgeHunter that has Indiana coverage map.

What I am thinking of, there are probably commentaries on these sites, and it is in the comments that someone, unexpectedly, could leave some details about his home place. Even more so, on YouTube, because who is reading all of them?

I can imagine, if people were posting something about our local parks, someone could comment: “this place is popular with drone enthusiasts, but few know that it has not two, but three, entrances. The third one is well-hidden”…. Hoopla, an aspiring trail predator might take a note.

What I want to say - if LE knows the true reason for the murders, they probably are slowly building up the case, and are right.

But if they assume that it was a local because “even I had no clue there was a west crossing”, they might be totally wrong. I don’t think all SKs are of TB’s IQ. Probably, high average would be enough to pull it over people, investigators, with superior IQs. Because, the killer has obsession, perseverance and interest. It is his hobby and dedication. So, 17% chance of “a stranger in the alley” is not a small number to me. (And I think there is something in that DNA that doesn’t match the locals. It is not useless, it might not be matched).

 

[WildHuncher]

I'm pretty sure JBC could drag 200 pounds, even across a creek and up an embankment. He's a runty little body builder. I could see him doing almost everything in the GH podcast scenario.

Except for leaving no DNA. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. He might have some kind of performance issues but he's violent, impulsive, reckless, and a known attempted sex killer of little girls. He'd leave DNA.

I don't know where I am now on the GH podcast issue or JBC.

 

[Boxer]

I agree. The only way one person, even strong, could have dragged Libby’s body, would be if he used a raincoat tent, or something that would make kind of a lever. (If there was a wheelbarrow next to the deer stand, for example). That could work. Or, we can discuss it till the cows come home, and not understand, because we don’t know the intricacies of that creek. I suspect there are, and this is the main reason why LE think he is local. I think he may be not. Heck, he might have never been to that place, but had a friend from Delphi, who, drunk, could once be telling about peculiarities of his hometown. After that, maybe two trips, and he knows the details.

Even easier - there are probably hiking and trails sites, that might be these killers’ haven. I saw the BridgeHunter that has Indiana coverage map.

What I am thinking of, there are probably commentaries on these sites, and it is in the comments that someone, unexpectedly, could leave some details about his home place. Even more so, on YouTube, because who is reading all of them?

I can imagine, if people were posting something about our local parks, someone could comment: “this place is popular with drone enthusiasts, but few know that it has not two, but three, entrances. The third one is well-hidden”…. Hoopla, an aspiring trail predator might take a note.

What I want to say - if LE knows the true reason for the murders, they probably are slowly building up the case, and are right.

But if they assume that it was a local because “even I had no clue there was a west crossing”, they might be totally wrong. I don’t think all SKs are of TB’s IQ. Probably, high average would be enough to pull it over people, investigators, with superior IQs. Because, the killer has obsession, perseverance and interest. It is his hobby and dedication. So, 17% chance of “a stranger in the alley” is not a small number to me. (And I think there is something in that DNA that doesn’t match the locals. It is not useless, it might not be matched).

I have not heard the GH interview, but what or where is the West Entrance?

 

[Charlot123]

I'm pretty sure JBC could drag 200 pounds, even across a creek and up an embankment. He's a runty little body builder. I could see him doing almost everything in the GH podcast scenario.

Except for leaving no DNA. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. He might have some kind of performance issues but he's violent, impulsive, reckless, and a known attempted sex killer of little girls. He'd leave DNA.

I don't know where I am now on the GH podcast issue or JBC.

BTW, "no DNA except for one sample".

How would it look to you?

I am wearing my peach T-shirt that I just washed. I assume that even freshly washed, it has my DNA, my husband's one, at least one of the kids, the neighbor's, dad's and his caregivers, and if I put it for storage into dad's cupboard, chances are, tomorrow in might have some of my deceased mom's DNA. I am sitting in dad's chair, so some guests will be there, too. How come there is only a tad of DNA if the hoodie came from Kelsi's car?

I assume "that" DNA they lifted off the sleeve having watched the video. Maybe he pushed Abby, or there was some valid reason to look at that sleeve. And it doesn't match anything else that could be in the girls' homes.

But if (as someone here has mentioned), the girls were not shot, I assume the attack was very unexpected, and likely, from the back.

I remember how either at the beginning, or in 2019, a garrotte or an "unusual weapon" was mentioned.

Question: the weapon was brought by the guy, I assume. Probably carried under the clothes.
Won't there be DNA on it? His DNA?

That jacket he was wearing he could have bought in a local thrift store, so maybe it is not even his DNA on the sleeve, right. But the weapon must have had contact with his body?

And won't there be traces of that DNA on the girls?

(Sorry for thinking in a dark way, but we are so far gone with this case. I bet someone took swabs from the girls' wounds? There should be some of the killer's DNA).

I also think that since "no DNA under the fingernails", as GH said, BG attacked them from the back?

 

[Charlot123]

I have not heard the GH interview, but what or where is the West Entrance?

No West entrance in the part I listened to, but there were three Deer Creek crossings mentioned, and the interviewed said he knew only of two.

I remember GH and the guy looking for the road east of the main ones, that goes through dense woods and ends up behind one of the houses.

What I meant, on many youtube videos about bridges and trails, the locals sometimes leave comments with the information that few read. And the serial killers might. This is why I gave the example about the park I know (far from Indiana). (What a local person could post on a video about that park, for example).

I am not 100% sure the perp is a local. Especially if it was a sex-motivated crime. If it was sex-motivated, and there are some details about the perpetrators profile, and they can't find him, it means to me, zero connection and a random attack.

 

[WildHuncher]

BTW, "no DNA except for one sample".

How would it look to you?

I am wearing my peach T-shirt that I just washed. I assume that even freshly washed, it has my DNA, my husband's one, at least one of the kids, the neighbor's, dad's and his caregivers, and if I put it for storage into dad's cupboard, chances are, tomorrow in might have some of my deceased mom's DNA. I am sitting in dad's chair, so some guests will be there, too. How come there is only a tad of DNA if the hoodie came from Kelsi's car?

I assume "that" DNA they lifted off the sleeve having watched the video. Maybe he pushed Abby, or there was some valid reason to look at that sleeve. And it doesn't match anything else that could be in the girls' homes.

But if (as someone here has mentioned), the girls were not shot, I assume the attack was very unexpected, and likely, from the back.

I remember how either at the beginning, or in 2019, a garrotte or an "unusual weapon" was mentioned.

Question: the weapon was brought by the guy, I assume. Probably carried under the clothes.
Won't there be DNA on it?

And won't there be traces of that DNA on the girls?

Sorry for thinking in a dark way, but we are so far gone with this case. I bet someone took swabs from the girls' wounds? There should be some DNA.

I also think that since "no DNA under the fingernails", he attacked them from the back?

From behind is likely, yes. He'd probably have them ahead of him. He might have a wrench or small hammer concealed in his clothing. That's faster than any kind of choking. Some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fanatics did a study:

What choke puts people unconscious the quickest? - BjjTribes

 

[Charlot123]

Quote from DTH as transcribed by Cujenn81 post #901, note the word “even if”.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

BBM

DTH:
Do you think there could be that element?
That he’s watching? He’s that close now?

DC:
Probably, yeah.
Yeah, whoever it is, and whoever it was, has stared at this nature reserve like we are right now. I know that. Even if it was his first day, he stood right here. Stood right here, yeah.

More from DTH, perplexing -

DTH:
You know, one of the things that we kinda talk about within a story is when you don’t know what happened, usually the simplest explanation is what happened.

When we find out what happened here, do you think it’s going to be simple?
Is it going to be the simplest explanation?

DC:
No, I don’t think so, and that’s just my own personal opinion. Because, it’s uh, it’s complex.

It’s—from what happened down there to what happened over there is complex. And, there’s not a simple explanation.

Ya know, if—I mean, if you and I were standing on this bridge, and you pushed me off and I died. Simple explanation, right? Or I jumped, simple explanation. Tragic — but simple explanation. It’s something that’s not, that’s not like this.

Thank you, @MistyWaters
Thank you, @cujenn81

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Whether “insider” is a true insider or not, I don’t believe Libby was dragged up the embankment or across the creek. That was this one guys opinion. His source never said anything other than Libby had bruising around her wrists.
After years of no real information we all can and have spun some tales to try and fill in the gaps. I know I have. I think that’s what this guy did to a small extent.
I totally agree with @MistyWaters. Occam’s Razor applies.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The guest can have his own opinions and still be credible.

GH finds him credible and I don't think he would have invited him to his interview if he wasn't.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The guest can have his own opinions and still be credible.

GH finds him credible and I don't think he would have invited him to his interview if he wasn't.

I agree. I thought everything else he said was very interesting.

 

[raja]

This has probably been brought up a million times in discussions but if the killer had a dirt bike or something of that nature they could have had that in the area and used it to drag one or both of the girls. I know the terrain is rough but for someone that knew the area there may have been enough of a trail to maneuver to be able to get access from one side of the creek to bring the girls to the other side. This would points toward the killer being able to get around quickly and may even explain why he was thought to be local in that finding that trail in that terrain would indicate familiarity. Just a possibility.