Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #137

[FrostedGlass]

I remember the bust, but with not enough detail to fond it.
(About 8-12 arrests)
MOO sheriffs at the time were attempting to shake down the meth criminal element for info.

They're probably still winding their way through that mess.

I've gone through all the cases that I've followed since I've been here and every one has had drug involvement in one way or the other. With one exception and that is the Mollie Tibbetts murder.

 

[Laughing]

thanks guys for the feedback..I knew this guy was just trying to force his theory down my throat ..which I knew didnt make any sense with the zillions of situations with criminals .and cops and so on
but he was just using this ( now if you have ever fired a gun ) ..which I did once in my teens ..it was a rifle and I recoiled and fell .. but he didnt need to know that

Different firearms make different sounds. A .22 rifle makes a distinctive cracking sound, and the volume isn't bad at all. A .22 pistol is similar.

A 9 millimeter pistol is loud and does have a kick! I don't like to shoot with it any more, lack the muscle strength to be as accurate as I was half my life ago. Not willing to lift weights to have the muscle strength for that accuracy. Kneeling is not so bad, but still not accurate enough for me.

Whoever handed you that rifle should be ashamed. Plenty of people could take to out with a .22 and you'd be fine!

You might choose not to become a regular range visitor, but you wouldn't be embarrassed & would gain a survival skill.

Back to our two roses!

freestockphotos.biz

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[minazoe]

I feel like the mugshot in this article looks very much like sketch number two.

Man accused of Indiana child kidnapping, attempted murder has long South Dakota criminal history | KELOLAND.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

There are a lot of things about JC that fit but, IMO, his nose is not one of them. Either both witnesses failed to notice what a high bridge he has or he's not BG.

I'm patiently waiting for more info on the tip GH talked about.

 

[buggiegirl]

On another note we have discussed "guys" over and over. I have never thought there was more than one person involved but after yesterday's discussion I am thinking it could be possible there was more than one person. I live very close to Delphi and have most of my life. I use "guys" all the time. This did not seem strange to me but now I am not so sure. Guys is sort of inclusive and I would use it if people are familiar, known to me. I also might use it for men I did not know or a group of males and females I did not know. If I was addressing 2 teen girls I did not know I would absolutely use "girls" or 2 boys I did not know I would use" boys". I would think that "girls" would give the speaker authority, "guys" not so much. JMHO

I work with kids around this age in the Midwest and I would absolutely call them using “guys!” If it’s just girls, I might go with “Ladies!” But usually anything more than one child, I just address them as “guys!” And especially if BG is someone who isn’t used to interacting with groups of young girls, I could see him easily defaulting to “guys” as a way to call more than one person of any gender.

 

[buggiegirl]

MOO dated slang. Not used anywhere.

Agree. That sounds like something from a movie. And I have never heard anyone refer to two barely teenage girls as chicks.

 

[Charlot123]

They're probably still winding their way through that mess.

I've gone through all the cases that I've followed since I've been here and every one has had drug involvement in one way or the other. With one exception and that is the Mollie Tibbetts murder.

But not every druggie or dealer would kill two girls, 13 and 14. This is beyond the pale.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My concern is that with the physical evidence they have, they have not been able to exclude Paul Etter either (or many other potential suspects, some known to the public and some unknown).

LE hasn’t cleared anybody I can think of except the family on Bicycle Rd after the first search warrant and Ron Logan. They half-cleared Nations. Since then they have been collecting names and POIs like baseball cards and released zero of them from suspicion. It seems like it’s part of their investigation tactic along with releasing no info on the case. Add in all the unfortunate guys whose names are battered on social media and that’s a good number of people.
So all of these people sit in limbo with a giant cloud over their heads...a giant cloud of killing two young girls. How in the world can LE or the prosecutors justify this?
The only other explanation is that LE is so clueless, through a tough case or incompetence, that they honestly don’t know if these people should be cleared.
Abby and Libby deserve so much better than this. I hope their families start demanding it.
I’ve said before....we better hope JBC is the killer, and we probably need to hope he confesses, because only icebergs lie ahead in this case if it’s not.

 

[minazoe]

they can nail him on circumstantial evidence. we can hope the Death Penalty will be a motivation, but I can see him not talking..I can totally see it..he loves negative attention...control..he's a sadist...he loves it.mOO

 

[JnRyan]

Just dropping in to see what is going on. I, personally, am out of new thoughts or theories on how this went down or JBC's involvement (or not).

 

[infinit]

LE hasn’t cleared anybody I can think of except the family on Bicycle Rd after the first search warrant and Ron Logan. They half-cleared Nations. Since then they have been collecting names and POIs like baseball cards and released zero of them from suspicion. It seems like it’s part of their investigation tactic along with releasing no info on the case. Add in all the unfortunate guys whose names are battered on social media and that’s a good number of people.
So all of these people sit in limbo with a giant cloud over their heads...a giant cloud of killing two young girls. How in the world can LE or the prosecutors justify this?
The only other explanation is that LE is so clueless, through a tough case or incompetence, that they honestly don’t know if these people should be cleared.
Abby and Libby deserve so much better than this. I hope their families start demanding it.
I’ve said before....we better hope JBC is the killer, and we probably need to hope he confesses, because only icebergs lie ahead in this case if it’s not.

Here in the UK policing is essentially split into two, you have your officers who do day to day policing, respond to emergency calls etc. You then have a Crime Investigation Department's who specifically investigate crimes. Often split into different teams e.g. drugs, fraud etc so the people investigating specific crimes become subject experts on them. This is an example of one of the teams for London who explicitly focus on murder and are lead by a senior detective who has been involved in multiple successful murder convictions before and was currently heading 13 murder/manslaughter cases: A week in the life of a London murder detective. Appreciate Carroll County is not London, but if it happened in a small town you'd get a team from the nearest Metropolis leading it. I'm genuinely curious as to how many murder convictions the key officers that have worked on this have got between them.

As you say, they seem to jump on anyone who could broadly have the capacity to carry it out. JBC's MO in the case he's going down for is he's lured a local kid into his own home. Except for the age of the victim, I don't really see what fits. At least with Etter the MO seemed reasonably similar.

To add something constructive... That day was an ideal for his purposes, kids off school on a non-scheduled holiday day. The fact it wasn’t a scheduled school holiday likely means more adults would be at work that might have otherwise taken time off. By the time the attack took place, it was circa 3pm. Essentially the window of advantage was shutting, adults whose work schedule fitted around their childcare would have left/be leaving work. It was a couple of hours away from getting dark and sun was already starting to get lower... how many new groups of children would be coming? I really do think he’s become frustrated and gone with something that wasn’t the initial plan.

Were the trails not the 1st place he scoped that day potentially which could explain why he seemingly wasn’t seen by a sleuth of people that day around them?

 

[minazoe]

see I think JBC was hanging around the area, and maybe set up camp there before and could have been camping there..he had a gun in his pocket you can see the outline. He's not supposed to have a gun so I wonder if he stole it and was around there looking for a house to rob ..everyone thinks he was drunk..but I think he does his drinking after he kills and blows off steam...JBC is like the little engine that could..he's a essentially a little evil boar and learned to attack quickly and violently in prison..you have to do it fast so you can get away..get out..

just because he invited the girl to his house because he happened to have a house that day , does nothing to convince me he is not a match..personally I think he does all kinds of crimes and killings...

you think a pedophile only will molest a child if it's behind the school and no where else?

nah. mOO

 

[infinit]

see I think JBC was hanging around the area, and maybe set up camp there before and could have been camping there..he had a gun in his pocket you can see the outline. He's not supposed to have a gun so I wonder if he stole it and was around there looking for a house to rob ..everyone thinks he was drunk..but I think he does his drinking after he kills and blows off steam...JBC is like the little engine that could..he's a essentially a little evil boar and learned to attack quickly and violently in prison..you have to do it fast so you can get away..get out..

just because he invited the girl to his house because he happened to have a house that day , does nothing to convince me he is not a match..personally I think he does all kinds of crimes and killings...

you think a pedophile only will molest a child if it's behind the school and no where else?

nah. mOO

Do I think someone who has taken the time to figure out secluded locations with no CCTV, in isolated areas, has potentially taken advantage of the non-school day and has seemily ignored other potential victims is likely to abduct a kid that randomly enters into his property? Not really. I think BG made mistakes and got frustrated, but I don't see him as being an idiot. Leaving bitemarks? I don't think BG was that dumb. I agree JBC is a sick individual, I hope he doesn't see daylight again. His pattern of offending certainly seems to suggest where he was going, but JBC's pattern of offending seems chaotic and spontaneous. I personally don't think BG just so happened to be there for another reason and spontaneously decided to do this.

Seems like two very different criminals.

JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

see I think JBC was hanging around the area, and maybe set up camp there before and could have been camping there..he had a gun in his pocket you can see the outline. He's not supposed to have a gun so I wonder if he stole it and was around there looking for a house to rob ..everyone thinks he was drunk..but I think he does his drinking after he kills and blows off steam...JBC is like the little engine that could..he's a essentially a little evil boar and learned to attack quickly and violently in prison..you have to do it fast so you can get away..get out..

just because he invited the girl to his house because he happened to have a house that day , does nothing to convince me he is not a match..personally I think he does all kinds of crimes and killings...

you think a pedophile only will molest a child if it's behind the school and no where else?

nah. mOO

We have nothing to base accusations of JBC on, so far. Some superimpose YBG sketch on OBG and state that JBC, with his square face, looks like that combo. (I don't see it.) Then, some poorly executed tattoos of unknown age. JBC had closed his FB on that day...were he BG, he'd probably clean it first... he comes across as a guy with poor interpersonal skills desperately hoping to attract women.

Maybe the blackout should have been imposed on TL, limiting him with phrases like "no comments"? His answer, innocent per se, has created such hysteria on the internet...

JBC, IMHO, has nothing to do with the Delphi killings but is very guilty in molesting a nearly killing a 9-year old neighbor, which is enough.

Blaming the killings on him is dangerous because the moment he is convicted, too many would feel BG is behind bars, and feel safe. While IRL, BG is free to commit other crimes. JMO.

 

[keep-it-real]

LE hasn’t cleared anybody I can think of except the family on Bicycle Rd after the first search warrant and Ron Logan. They half-cleared Nations. Since then they have been collecting names and POIs like baseball cards and released zero of them from suspicion. It seems like it’s part of their investigation tactic along with releasing no info on the case. Add in all the unfortunate guys whose names are battered on social media and that’s a good number of people.
So all of these people sit in limbo with a giant cloud over their heads...a giant cloud of killing two young girls. How in the world can LE or the prosecutors justify this?
The only other explanation is that LE is so clueless, through a tough case or incompetence, that they honestly don’t know if these people should be cleared.
Abby and Libby deserve so much better than this. I hope their families start demanding it.
I’ve said before....we better hope JBC is the killer, and we probably need to hope he confesses, because only icebergs lie ahead in this case if it’s not.

I dont think LE is clueless but I think they probably find themselves in a difficult position. Their interactions like other LE all over the world has become complicated because of the way they interact with criminals to fight crime paying informants, plea deals etc. It works relatively well for both sides until things go wrong and go wrong big time.
Serious crimes and murders which involve people they have had these interactions with become 'complicated and involved' because those interactions can be used against LE when a criminal turns the tables to evade a serious crime conviction or demands the protection of the police from other criminals who commiting that although he might not be directly involved in could impliment him by the information he has passed to the police about a crime or criminal. . This is not something new.
But it creates a situation that LE refuse to allow to become public knowledge. Not only would the general look unfavourably on this but criminals would no longer come forward snitching on other criminals.

Its an unfortunate state of affairs but it is what it is .. and is a consequence of police not taking a zero approach to crime full stop!! But once you understand this it does help you when investigating and researching serious crime it takes you past the point of that 'stone wall' that many people find themselves at when they are unable to accept how LE now choose to interact with some criminals in the pursuit of information that would normally would not be available to them due to the code of silence the criminal groups operate under.

 

[keep-it-real]

We have nothing to base accusations of JBC on, so far. Some superimpose YBG sketch on OBG and state that JBC, with his square face, looks like that combo. (I don't see it.) Then, some poorly executed tattoos of unknown age. JBC had closed his FB on that day...were he BG, he'd probably clean it first... he comes across as a guy with poor interpersonal skills desperately hoping to attract women.

Maybe the blackout should have been imposed on TL, limiting him with phrases like "no comments"? His answer, innocent per se, has created such hysteria on the internet...

JBC, IMHO, has nothing to do with the Delphi killings but is very guilty in molesting a nearly killing a 9-year old neighbor, which is enough.

Blaming the killings on him is dangerous because the moment he is convicted, too many would feel BG is behind bars, and feel safe. While IRL, BG is free to commit other crimes. JMO.

I agree you just cant pull a criminal out of thin air air say its him.. you have to prove his involvement..

 

[infinit]

We have nothing to base accusations of JBC on, so far. Some superimpose YBG sketch on OBG and state that JBC, with his square face, looks like that combo. (I don't see it.) Then, some poorly executed tattoos of unknown age. JBC had closed his FB on that day...were he BG, he'd probably clean it first... he comes across as a guy with poor interpersonal skills desperately hoping to attract women.

Maybe the blackout should have been imposed on TL, limiting him with phrases like "no comments"? His answer, innocent per se, has created such hysteria on the internet...

JBC, IMHO, has nothing to do with the Delphi killings but is very guilty in molesting a nearly killing a 9-year old neighbor, which is enough.

Blaming the killings on him is dangerous because the moment he is convicted, too many would feel BG is behind bars, and feel safe. While IRL, BG is free to commit other crimes. JMO.

I appreciate wanting to hold information back, no one needs to know the macabre details for the sake of it or ongoing Police leads. But I think they've botched this personally, to the point of negligence if I'm honest. And I don't say that lightly and haven't in any other case. They seem befuddled by what's happened on SM but don't seem to realise they've caused it themselves in how they've gone about things. If they wanted someone to come forwards off the 2nd sketch, they should have explained what had caused the switch to give some confidence to them.

I've never seen a case where they only release video and audio they've been sitting on since the start 2 years later. Appealing for information on a car 2 years after the fact? How has it taken them 2 years to determine its significance? We still have no official cause of death. If giving away the cause of death would compromise their ability to determine if a confession is legit or not, they really must have absolutely nothing because pretty much every other murder investigation manages to eliminate attention seekers where there is a public cause of death.

Their strategy has clearly spectacularly failed, they don't have a clue who has done this, or they wouldn't be going around looking into every sexual deviant that pops up. The "we are one tip away" is nonsense, unless that tip puts it on a plate for them. They seem to have wanted to play this public game of try and rattle the cage. That works when you have an idea of who it is and can then monitor what they then do. Carter's "You didn't think we'd change investigative strategy" - What? To one of actual competence and doing what you should have done 2 years ago?

We’re now 4 years later and they seemingly still want to bury their head in the sand. They seemingly believe there are people out there who will know something but there has never been a shift in strategy to “Look, we’re not going to solve this if you don’t come forward. What if it was your kids or loved ones? We really need your help. etc”

I know they mention they've worked with the FBI blah blah, but I genuinely hope someone independent with specific expertise has been given the opportunity to review the competence of this investigation in its totality.

JMO.

 

[Laura456]

I dont think LE is clueless but I think they probably find themselves in a difficult position. Their interactions like other LE all over the world has become complicated because of the way they interact with criminals to fight crime paying informants, plea deals etc. It works relatively well for both sides until things go wrong and go wrong big time.
Serious crimes and murders which involve people they have had these interactions with become 'complicated and involved' because those interactions can be used against LE when a criminal turns the tables to evade a serious crime conviction or demands the protection of the police from other criminals who commiting that although he might not be directly involved in could impliment him by the information he has passed to the police about a crime or criminal. . This is not something new.
But it creates a situation that LE refuse to allow to become public knowledge. Not only would the general look unfavourably on this but criminals would no longer come forward snitching on other criminals.

Its an unfortunate state of affairs but it is what it is .. and is a consequence of police not taking a zero approach to crime full stop!! But once you understand this it does help you when investigating and researching serious crime it takes you past the point of that 'stone wall' that many people find themselves at when they are unable to accept how LE now choose to interact with some criminals in the pursuit of information that would normally would not be available to them due to the code of silence the criminal groups operate under.

I didn't even think about this! Although this doesn't 'feel' like a gang or drug related crime.

But say they were going to be abducted and trafficked by an organized group as 'repayment' for a drug debt, wouldn't the cartel be better prepared than this? Seems like getting caught on video is quite sloppy. Maybe I'm overestimating their competence.

But if it were a prominent member of the community who had done this, or had some kind of hold over people, they might not speak up.

We NEED more information. Obviously their strategy is not working. They need to keep back 10% rather than the 25% than they have been.

If the girls planned to meet someone at the trail, police would have tracked that down.

Jamie Closs had to rescue herself after police with all their resources got nowhere, because there was no link between her and the suspect previously. Seems like that's the case here also.

 

[keep-it-real]

I appreciate wanting to hold information back, no one needs to know the macabre details for the sake of it or ongoing Police leads. But I think they've botched this personally, to the point of negligence if I'm honest. And I don't say that lightly and haven't in any other case. They seem befuddled by what's happened on SM but don't seem to realise they've caused it themselves in how they've gone about things. If they wanted someone to come forwards off the 2nd sketch, they should have explained what had caused the switch to give some confidence to them.

I've never seen a case where they only release video and audio they've been sitting on since the start 2 years later. Appealing for information on a car 2 years after the fact? How has it taken them 2 years to determine its significance? We still have no official cause of death. If giving away the cause of death would compromise their ability to determine if a confession is legit or not, they really must have absolutely nothing because pretty much every other murder investigation manages to eliminate attention seekers where there is a public cause of death.

Their strategy has clearly spectacularly failed, they don't have a clue who has done this, or they wouldn't be going around looking into every sexual deviant that pops up. The "we are one tip away" is nonsense, unless that tip puts it on a plate for them. They seem to have wanted to play this public game of try and rattle the cage. That works when you have an idea of who it is and can then monitor what they then do. Carter's "You didn't think we'd change investigative strategy" - What? To one of actual competence and doing what you should have done 2 years ago?

We’re now 4 years later and they seemingly still want to bury their head in the sand. They seemingly believe there are people out there who will know something but there has never been a shift in strategy to “Look, we’re not going to solve this if you don’t come forward. What if it was your kids or loved ones? We really need your help. etc”

I know they mention they've worked with the FBI blah blah, but I genuinely hope someone independent with specific expertise has been given the opportunity to review the competence of this investigation in its totality.

JMO.

Personally I think the switch of the sketch and lines of enquiry after 2 years because someone connected to the group in someway actually offered up the info either for payment or as part of a plea deal. Take a closer look at CM originaly one of the 5 charged in the Nicole Brown murder in March 2019 he accepted a plea agreement and was released after being sentenced to time served.

Charged in March 2019 accepted ple agreement and released after time served
LE press conference announcing sketch switch, appeal for info of car at CPS building and more audio in April 2019

My opinion only

 

[keep-it-real]

I didn't even think about this! Although this doesn't 'feel' like a gang or drug related crime.

But say they were going to be abducted and trafficked by an organized group as 'repayment' for a drug debt, wouldn't the cartel be better prepared than this? Seems like getting caught on video is quite sloppy. Maybe I'm overestimating their competence.

But if it were a prominent member of the community who had done this, or had some kind of hold over people, they might not speak up

We NEED more information. Obviously their strategy is not working. They need to keep back 10% rather than the 25% than they have been.

If the girls planned to meet someone at the trail, police would have tracked that down.

Jamie Closs had to rescue herself after police with all their resources got nowhere, because there was no link between her and the suspect previously. Seems like that's the case here also.

From what I see so far its drug related and this is definately a group acting with or on behalf of a main person. Take note of what is said in LE press conferences and the audio it all points to a group. ( Im hoping to improve on the quality of the audio at some stage to post here).