Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[FromGermany1]

Did you listen to Paul Holes thoughts on the murder of Katie Janness? He said in a recent Murder Squad episode that the extreme violence/humiliation shown by her attacker caused him to call other investigators to compare their notes.
I always wondered if Libby and Abby were posed at the crime scene or left with some other humiliating message from the attacker. MOO.
Someone has posted their theory this is the work of an organized nonsocial offender or disorganized asocial offender.

From your link:
“Organized nonsocial” offenders tend to be educated, intelligent, aware of law enforcement, narcissistic, controlled, and prepared. They have no regard for social norms. They’re indifferent, irresponsible, and self-centered, although they can seem amiable when necessary. They generally leave a clean crime scene, but might take a trophy to relive the pleasure. They feel no remorse, and they pay close attention to any media reports about their crimes. They’re “methodical and cunning” and are aware that what they’re doing is criminal. In fact, this actually pleases them.
IMO, this type of offender/killer seems to be appropriate.

 

[FromGermany1]

I can see what you mean, but I think he may have been drunk or otherwise impaired. Weird gait and all, he seemed to be abnormally confident crossing that bridge.

I see a man doing an an agressive cross over step, the block step one does to cut off a dog or to keep some one from passing.

Maybe, you both are right and it had been a combination of being drunk and a casual, sporty step to block someone.

 

[Charlot123]

Does that mean an inner circle person with a strong alibi? I don't see too many reasons why it wouldn't solve it if it's a proven method. Moo

I am thinking that unless DNA is from the seminal fluid (sorry), most DNA can be explained away. Even if it is non-local. "I donated my jacket to a Goodwill, and I don't know what happened with it". So DNA might support a case, but not solve it- unless it is a rapist like GSK. But obviously, Delphi case is different.

 

[sandy_80]

I listen to paul holes thoughts occasionally but I also keep in mind that he tried to make profit out of this case by selling an (app ) that would def solve the case !.

 

[AC4RD]

I think that some people would not spend the $ for a test IMO. Others might have something in their background that they are not curious about- IMO, and some people just do not like science and genetics. all IMO.

I agree completely; one other category (my own) is people who aren't curious about what familial DNA would show. I know pretty much where my ancestors came from, and don't have any real interest in anything DNA could tell me on that account. All of your listed groups (plus me) aren't going to have DNA submitted to a commercial service--though some of us might have involuntary DNA in the he criminal database (thanks, yemelyan, for the explanation!)

I suspect there are also some other aspects that I can't guess at: something like, people born and raised in New England are much more likely to submit DNA and include in LE-searchable databases, than people born and raised in New Mexico. Or, say, short people vs tall people, or Jewish people vs Methodists. People with college degrees in sociology vs math majors--I'm guessing there are a lot of demographic factors that affect voluntary DNA submission for criminal searches, and I certainly don't know what they are. I'm sure some people are trying to understand all this.

 

[Trebor5591]

I have criticism on their police work.
The Sheriff intentionally intimidated the seedy and lawbreakers of the Delphi area, instead of appealing to their humanity, and asking for information from everyone with reasonable limited immunity.

This is the first I have heard of the Carroll County Sheriff intimidatingly locals. How exactly did the Sherriff intimidate people in the Delphi area? Do you have a source you can cite?

 

[AC4RD]

This is the first I have heard of the Carroll County Sheriff intimidatingly locals. How exactly did the Sherriff intimidate people in the Delphi area? Do you have a source you can cite?

I don't know if this is what Boxer meant but a lot of people have cited it as "police harshness":

Delphi property owner gets nearly four years in jail for traffic charges | Fox 59

I've seen people here on WS suggest that this "police harshness" has prevented other potential witnesses from coming forward, for fear of being hit with minor law violations unrelated to the murders. Note, however, that it was a judge, not the police, who sentenced Logan on the parole violation, and JMHO, that's the same sort of treatment a frequent DUI offender would get in my state, for drinking and driving while on parole for DWI. So "harshness" is a judgement call.

 

[AC4RD]

The bridge is extremely rickety, missing planks and there are no guard rails. His gait is likely entirely related to keeping his balance and finding the best footing. I know someone who has walked the bridge - they were able to clear it quickly but there's a lot of thought that has to go into every step taken.

LE said the same thing at one of the PCs; that the gait in the video was unnatural because of the bridge's gaps. When I look at the video clip, what I see personally is, in the last step, not quite completed, BG is swinging his right leg over the left's forward line, and it looks very much to me like he's just picking a better area for the next few steps, avoiding a hole or rotted wood or something along those lines. JMHO.

 

[squareandrabbet]

I am pretty sure that KG said something similar to the effect of, that she has heard that voice before but cannot place it. I think BG is very close to home and don't believe its KAK or JBC.

Maybe because of a family/generational resemblance? I know people have often mistaken me for my mother on the phone, or my sister for either of us, etc., etc.; and I don't think we sound like vocal clones IRL. Similar, yes; identical, no.

 

[TTF14]

I am pretty sure that KG said something similar to the effect of, that she has heard that voice before but cannot place it. I think BG is very close to home and don't believe its KAK or JBC.

I don't recall her saying she's heard the voice, but I do remember her saying she thinks it is someone they know, someone close to them they see every day (paraphrasing).

(Crawlspace podcast, Episode 122, November 20, 2019)

 

[PezCandy]

I don't recall her saying she's heard the voice, but I do remember her saying she thinks it is someone they know, someone close to them they see every day (paraphrasing).

(Crawlspace podcast, Episode 122, November 20, 2019)

there was an article that’s been heavily edited over the years then completely disappeared, in the article I recall her (KG) saying she “heard that voice before” and that “it could be someone her/family know.”
I can’t stress enough how heavily early articles have been edited over the years, so it can get very confusing trying to find old articles. Not all of them obviously are edited but lots are.
Did the girls ever go to a church camp?

 

[AC4RD]

... I wonder if Libby’s iPhone 7, especially in the pocket, cut off higher registers in the offender’s voice. Maybe the initial “hi guys” was recorded with the iPhone out, and “down the hill” with it in the pocket, hence it sounds like two voices? “Down the hill” sounds super dull, almost unusually so.

I mentioned i've listened to a lot of Delphi podcasts in the last few weeks. One podcast I heard had the original audio recording. We're used to hearing the cleaned up one beginning "Guys ..." but the very first bit of audio released was nearly unintelligible. It was primarily noises, voice almost impossible (IMO) to pick out. Do we all remember that?

I have no idea if it's the same with audio, but with still photos, I know that digital editing can do wonders with some faults--though it sometimes introduces artifacts of its own, that may or may not be obvious, depending on the photo and the viewer. I wonder to what degree the BG audio clip has been altered (if any) by the process of bringing it out of the noise.

 

[FromGermany1]

there was an article that’s been heavily edited over the years then completely disappeared, in the article I recall her (KG) saying she “heard that voice before” and that “it could be someone her/family know.”
I can’t stress enough how heavily early articles have been edited over the years, so it can get very confusing trying to find old articles. Not all of them obviously are edited but lots are.
Did the girls ever go to a church camp?

I don't know about Libby, but Abby:
https://www.wrtv.com/longform/abby-williams-i-still-dont-know-how-to-live-without-her
Every year around the Fourth of July, Abby would spend two weeks in Michigan.

One week would be spent at the church camp her mother attended as a child.

The other week she would spend with her grandpa Clif.

 

[FromGermany1]

This is the first I have heard of the Carroll County Sheriff intimidatingly locals. How exactly did the Sherriff intimidate people in the Delphi area? Do you have a source you can cite?

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...2.2078783901.1641934186-1919497941.1640299221
Delphi, Indiana: Teens' slayings lead to
numerous unrelated arrests
By: Associated Press
Posted at 1:11 PM, Mar 17, 2017
and last updated 7:19 PM, Mar 17, 2017

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) -- The investigation into the killing of two teenage girls in Delphi has led to 13 arrests, but state police say that none of them are linked to those deaths.
-.-.-

Afaik, Sheriff T. Leazenby warned, that unrelated crimes, which would be discovered, would be punished. - Can't find a link, I have access to (Europe restrictions).

 

[Boxer]

I don't recall her saying she's heard the voice, but I do remember her saying she thinks it is someone they know, someone close to them they see every day (paraphrasing).

(Crawlspace podcast, Episode 122, November 20, 2019)

That is creepy.
MOO better the lightening strike of stranger violence.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Post 190, page 10 on 2/24/17 by BFan60 nailed it on the head. Very impressed that he/she hypothesized way back then, is very similar if not darn near accurate as to what is being talked, learned, discovered nearly 5 years later. Wow.

m()() ymmv

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Post #222, thread 10 on 2/24/17. I’m wowed again. NewMama found a concealed carry jacket that looks nearly identical to BG’s jacket. When I clicked on the link however it said ‘page not found’. Of course I’m not at all surprised as most of what a lot of people posted back then, links & such, are no longer available for view.
Anyway I think NM was really on to something.

ETA: pic of NM’s post/the jacket

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Y’all, I think some of us should go (back) and reread these earlier threads. I’m blown away with some of them, the content, the clues, etc.
A fresh set of eyes have never hurt anything, IMHO.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Y’all, I think some of us should go (back) and reread these earlier threads. I’m blown away with some of them, the content, the clues, etc.
A fresh set of eyes have never hurt anything, IMHO.

I’ve done this on several cases. Sometimes when I’m trying to find an article I’ll find a link to WS and read back through the thread. I came across a mention on SM today about Mark Redwine being in Delphi and discovered he’d been discussed here at WS as a potential suspect. I admittedly have skipped hundreds of threads for these girls but have followed the case loosely since it happened but had somehow missed that people had linked Mark to the area.

Editted to remove something I couldn’t confirm as fact

 

[squareandrabbet]

Post 190, page 10 on 2/24/17 by BFan60 nailed it on the head. Very impressed that he/she hypothesized way back then, is very similar if not darn near accurate as to what is being talked, learned, discovered nearly 5 years later. Wow.

m()() ymmv

Absolutely agree that if this turns out to have something to do with some loathsome catfishing murderer, that LE has done a (IMO) phenomenal job of keeping it under wraps so far, in order that no shade of victim blaming be cast upon the girls.