Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[evilwise]

MOO if killing Abby and Libby was impulse driven I think JBC is a good suspect.
He hangs around bridges, he was working as a welder comfortable with heights.
Not too much a planner but a bold risk taker.

These have been my thoughts ever since I really looked at Chadwell. This Anthony_Shots thing has us all presuming that the girls were set up through that profile but it could just be coincidence. I bet a majority of 13 year old girls who are active on social media have at least one catfishing profile on their friends list and that may be as far as it goes in this case.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

The crime with the nine year old girl shows a total lack of control planning forethought etc. The Delphi crime just seems so different. Trying to insert yourself into a crime is common. And using social media to get attention and get people to approve of them? That's common too.

This is going to sound crazy but sometimes I wonder if JBC attacked the nine year old in order to get himself thrown in jail with other child molesters versus hardened criminals and lifers. I think he did commit the murders of Abby and Libby and possibly thought he was on LE’s radar and if caught, he’d go to jail with a broader mix of criminals, and would be a target and very likely be murdered by one of them. That is why, IMO, he plead guilty so quickly once the judge refused to move his trial to another location.
He was afraid to go to trial because perhaps something related to the murders could be revealed there and he’d be exposed.
I agree that he was brazen to lure a nine year old neighbor girl into his home and attack and assault her especially knowing he was on probation and LE knew his criminal history. That is why he answered the door and when they came back later, he knew they were going to go inside and find her. IMO
I followed the Chris Watts trial and learned that the reason why he did not pursue a second trial was because if he was found guilty, he would be sent back to the first prison he while he was awaiting trial. It was there that a death threat was put on his life by some of the other prisoners and so they transferred him out of there and placed him in a safer prison, one with mostly pedophiles and not murders in for life. Once he plead guilty in court, he was sent right back to that prison. Had he plead not guilty at his trial and was convicted, he would have been returned to the first prison he went to where he was threatened by the lifers.

 

[LeBlack]

I fully disagree. 9 years old is prepubescent, 13-14 year olds have started puberty and are very different from 9 year olds developmentally physically, mentally, and emotionally

We don't know the size and the development of the 9 year old. Some girls are entering puberty very early.

 

[Charlot123]

I go back and forth between thinking BG was good at avoiding leaving his DNA and thinking he had a reason for his DNA to be there.

We all assume BG left before searchers arrived but he may have just joined the searchers and no one thought anything of it. How long after they were found was the video released? How many searchers noticed what other searchers were wearing? They were looking for two missing girls, not murder victims and a murderer, at that point they had no reason to think anything nefarious about any of the people on the scene. JMO

If local, it would suffice for him to join the group early in the morning...

Sometimes I think, since the crime scene looked "strange", per R.I., what if it was messy, with lots of random stuff there? If the killer worked at a local knickknacks store, or a popcorn stand in a movie theater, something like that...a place where lots of people leave their DNA, and get his DNA with the things they buy. A library, for example. He can always explain his DNA being found in many places.

If BG is a random serial killer, then his DNA might be unknown, but if he is of a regular Anglo-German stock, I can't imagine they can't find his cousins. These days, a person with totally unknown and unmatched DNA would virtually have to be an alien.

Less likely than someone whose DNA is "legally" in the mix.

P.S. edit to add: a local doctor's or a vet's office is the place where there is a lot of DNA transfer.

 

[LeBlack]

I wish this wasn’t you feeling this way. I wish it was some big mouth who didn’t really know much about this case or crimes and LE processes.
I hope in this case you are wrong.

I think they know who it is and that he is not a danger to the community. Hoping for a resolution this year.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

We don't know the size and the development of the 9 year old. Some girls are entering puberty very early.

I saw a picture of her months ago. She is truly only 9 years old.

 

[LeBlack]

If local, it would suffice for him to join the group early in the morning...

Sometimes I think, since the crime scene looked "strange", per R.I., what if it was messy, with lots of random stuff there? If the killer worked at a local knickknacks store, or a popcorn stand in a movie theater, something like that...a place where lots of people leave their DNA, and get his DNA with the things they buy. A library, for example. He can always explain his DNA being found in many places.

If BG is a random serial killer, then his DNA might be unknown, but if he is of a regular Anglo-German stock, I can't imagine they can't find his cousins. These days, a person with totally unknown and unmatched DNA would virtually have to be an alien.

Less likely than someone whose DNA is "legally" in the mix.

P.S. edit to add: a local doctor's or a vet's office is the place where there is a lot of DNA transfer.

Goodwill, Salvation Army, Homeless shelter, PreCovid Gym.

 

[Marlo56]

There was something I thought of today that I wanted to mention. Do you remember the press conference where it was said that the girls are "not how you left them", when speaking to the killer? This makes me feel like he left them a certain way to send a message. Possibly a message about Abby and Libby, to the public, or a message about something he hated or caused him disgust. Maybe he wanted to humiliate the girls and got off on leaving them in a way that everyone would see. Or maybe the message he was trying to send had nothing to do with them, but they were the instruments he used to send it. Maybe by LE not giving us any information, they are depriving the killer of what he wanted. The public doesn't know how the girls were left. Maybe he wanted us to know. This came to mind after thinking about the very small amount of information that's been made public. We already know that killers often send messages. Maybe knowing what the message was, though, could lead to who it was. Or the type of person who was responsible. If the killer was trying to send a message about Abby and Libby, the murder would seem, to me, more personal. Why though? That doesn't make sense. What could they have done that enraged him so badly that he decided to murder them. If he wanted to send a message regarding something else, the girls would be mere instruments to him. The crime took place around Valentine's day. Could it have something to do with that?

Good idea and I think you might be right. Another likely trait of the killer that I forgot to mention, in addition to most likely being a pretty average guy with an average family, is being a narcissist.

I think the notoriety will be a big part of the motive, and another part will be the feeling of being smart enough to get away with it. I can therefore see you being correct that the scene had been staged for maximum effect to feed both of those feelings: the notoriety of the horror he left behind; and the red herrings of the cryptic "signatures" left behind that send LE down the wrong path. Maybe, like you said, Carter was making a point to not indulge the killer by avoiding talking about that.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Ghastly if that's man-made.

JMO

How true! Such evil!

 

[Imvp2]

Another thing I wanted to post about is the jacket. I went back through the first couple of threads and found mention of the Subaru plant in LaFayette:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #38

The Subaru company colours are typically various shades of blue. It's difficult to find images of workers at the plant wearing jackets as they're indoors, so typically just wearing blue t-shirts. Also, many jackets I found online are covered in bright logos.

However, I did find a Subaru jacket for sale on Ebay that looks, in my opinion, to be the exact shade of blue as the jacket in the video. It's a shame that the right side of the BG video is obscured by shade as it would likely be the side that an identifier like a logo would appear on. I've attached images anyway. Perhaps a local familiar with the plant will know how typical the Ebay listed jacket is of the ones that would have been worn by workers in 2017.

View attachment 328551 View attachment 328552 View attachment 328553

This jacket zips up the front. To me, it seems the jacket BG is wearing in the pics, snaps up the front. This monster needs to be arrested.

 

[FromGermany1]

If local, it would suffice for him to join the group early in the morning...

Sometimes I think, since the crime scene looked "strange", per R.I., what if it was messy, with lots of random stuff there? If the killer worked at a local knickknacks store, or a popcorn stand in a movie theater, something like that...a place where lots of people leave their DNA, and get his DNA with the things they buy. A library, for example. He can always explain his DNA being found in many places.

If BG is a random serial killer, then his DNA might be unknown, but if he is of a regular Anglo-German stock, I can't imagine they can't find his cousins. These days, a person with totally unknown and unmatched DNA would virtually have to be an alien.

Less likely than someone whose DNA is "legally" in the mix.

P.S. edit to add: a local doctor's or a vet's office is the place where there is a lot of DNA transfer.

Apropos "vet's office":
I would like to know, where they (have forgotten, whether Libby or Abby) got the new little pet dog the weekend before the murder. Does anybody know it? Is it true at all? Did they leave the new family member alone at home? (Grandma/mum working probably, other family members also.) If they JUST had a little dog indeed and didn't stay home for it, that Monday in Febr 2017 the MHB area must have been important to visit, IMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

There was something I thought of today that I wanted to mention. Do you remember the press conference where it was said that the girls are "not how you left them", when speaking to the killer? This makes me feel like he left them a certain way to send a message. Possibly a message about Abby and Libby, to the public, or a message about something he hated or caused him disgust. Maybe he wanted to humiliate the girls and got off on leaving them in a way that everyone would see. Or maybe the message he was trying to send had nothing to do with them, but they were the instruments he used to send it. Maybe by LE not giving us any information, they are depriving the killer of what he wanted. The public doesn't know how the girls were left. Maybe he wanted us to know. This came to mind after thinking about the very small amount of information that's been made public. We already know that killers often send messages. Maybe knowing what the message was, though, could lead to who it was. Or the type of person who was responsible. If the killer was trying to send a message about Abby and Libby, the murder would seem, to me, more personal. Why though? That doesn't make sense. What could they have done that enraged him so badly that he decided to murder them. If he wanted to send a message regarding something else, the girls would be mere instruments to him. The crime took place around Valentine's day. Could it have something to do with that?

bbm
When LE found the girls, A/L afterwards got transported to the pathology and weren't left like BG had possibly posed them. So, I did't understand DC's mention and put it to the religious part of his speach. Now I'm thinking:
Did LE find a photo of BG's victims and saw, how he had posed the girls at the crime scene?
Did LE find the photo on Libby's phone perhaps?
Did LE find a photo from an instant camera at the scene?
Had the scene changed a bit until Tuesday noon, because one victim was longer alife than the other (if true)?
Did DC have the intention to tell the killer, LE had seen his crime scene photo?

 

[FromGermany1]

I go back and forth between thinking BG was good at avoiding leaving his DNA and thinking he had a reason for his DNA to be there.

We all assume BG left before searchers arrived but he may have just joined the searchers and no one thought anything of it. How long after they were found was the video released? How many searchers noticed what other searchers were wearing? They were looking for two missing girls, not murder victims and a murderer, at that point they had no reason to think anything nefarious about any of the people on the scene. JMO

If it is a serial k, he has reason to avoid leaving his DNA, even if he was between the searchers. IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

If I recall correctly, this info about new puppies came from an interview with Libby's family members on Websleuths live. And the puppies didn't belong to either victim but rather an aunt of Libby, which makes it less significant, I think. But this is going by memory only.

Apropos "vet's office":
I would like to know, where they (have forgotten, whether Libby or Abby) got the new little pet dog the weekend before the murder. Does anybody know it? Is it true at all? Did they leave the new family member alone at home? (Grandma/mum working probably, other family members also.) If they JUST had a little dog indeed and didn't stay home for it, that Monday in Febr 2017 the MHB area must have been important to visit, IMO.

 

[Trebor5591]

She simply thought WTF where did he come from ? They couldn’t run as there was someone else blocking their exit.

I also think BG got it wrong and the target was actually the later two young women who were closely behind Libby & Abby on the trail​

Happy New & Peaceful Year to ALL

Thank you for responding and your theory is interesting. However, looking at the later responses on this thread, and the Gray Hughes video posted, (see below URL) where he attempted to ascertain the time that the lady named Cheyenne was on the bridge (one of the ladies you referred to as following Abby and Libby closely,) Gray Hughes says the time BG was accosting the girls on the bridge was 2:20 p.m. and they time Cheyenne was there taking a photo of the bridge was 3:00 p.m., 40 minutes later. So Cheyenne was actually not following the girls closely, they were 40 minutes apart and Gray Hughes speculated the girls were likely already dead by the time Cheyenne reached the bridge. Cheyenne was apparently alone and she met the 2nd lady at 3:30 on the bridge.

So I think your theory that BG was targeting the two other ladies not Libby and Abby is likely not correct, since there was at least a 40 minute gap between the girls and Cheyenne on the bridge and an 1 hr. & 10 minute gap between the girls and the second lady.

This is just my opinion and the above assumes Gray Hughes is correct in his analysis of the times.

I pray the killer is caught soon and brought to justice.

 

[Lavender Moon]

I saw a picture of her months ago. She is truly only 9 years old.

I am praying for healing for this dear baby.
I have read of killers who seemed to have little discrimination when stalking their victims. The critter believed to be responsible for the Boston Strangler murders told LE that he had no preference in choosing his prey. He said he only wanted what a woman had [I'm paraphrasing].
The man who murdered Polly Klass had previously been incarcerated (at Napa State Hospital IIRC) for the sexual assault of a grown woman.

 

[Lavender Moon]

There was something I thought of today that I wanted to mention. Do you remember the press conference where it was said that the girls are "not how you left them", when speaking to the killer? This makes me feel like he left them a certain way to send a message. Possibly a message about Abby and Libby, to the public, or a message about something he hated or caused him disgust. Maybe he wanted to humiliate the girls and got off on leaving them in a way that everyone would see. Or maybe the message he was trying to send had nothing to do with them, but they were the instruments he used to send it. Maybe by LE not giving us any information, they are depriving the killer of what he wanted. The public doesn't know how the girls were left. Maybe he wanted us to know. This came to mind after thinking about the very small amount of information that's been made public. We already know that killers often send messages. Maybe knowing what the message was, though, could lead to who it was. Or the type of person who was responsible. If the killer was trying to send a message about Abby and Libby, the murder would seem, to me, more personal. Why though? That doesn't make sense. What could they have done that enraged him so badly that he decided to murder them. If he wanted to send a message regarding something else, the girls would be mere instruments to him. The crime took place around Valentine's day. Could it have something to do with that?

IMO, there is significance to the fact that the murders occurred the day before Valentine's Day . Perhaps the killer had recently had a relationship break up.

 

[JnRyan]

IMO, there is significance to the fact that the murders occurred the day before Valentine's Day . Perhaps the killer had recently had a relationship break up.

I, along with many others on here, have speculated on that aspect. 'Recent' is a component of this I wonder about. Not necessarily within a week or so of the murders but maybe even a few months. If it had been a long relationship and she broke it off in the late summer or early fall of 2016, Valentine's Day may have been bringing it all back to him.

 

[Lavender Moon]

I, along with many others on here, have speculated on that aspect. 'Recent' is a component of this I wonder about. Not necessarily within a week or so of the murders but maybe even a few months. If it had been a long relationship and she broke it off in the late summer or early fall of 2016, Valentine's Day may have been bringing it all back to him.

Yes! I think that's an excellent point!

 

[JnRyan]

If BG is a random serial killer, then his DNA might be unknown, but if he is of a regular Anglo-German stock, I can't imagine they can't find his cousins. These days, a person with totally unknown and unmatched DNA would virtually have to be an alien.

Less likely than someone whose DNA is "legally" in the mix.

P.S. edit to add: a local doctor's or a vet's office is the place where there is a lot of DNA transfer.

A good point. The "hiding in plain sight" aspect. If this killer is currently local - local being anywhere within an hour or so of Delphi - perhaps the problem with the DNA is they have TOO MANY possibilities.

I know if I go to the mid-west where my parents' families are from there are MANY in the county and surrounding counties who have some relationship to me. I remember once while in a community an hour away from where I was visiting I came across two brothers and one of their cousins with the same last name as myself. And my last name is very UNCOMMON as it is an Anglicized version of a European name. I didn't know any of them and they didn't know me. Later when I asked my parents, grandparents and aunts/uncles, they had no clue as to the relationship to us. But they said it wasn't unusual either as this area of the country was where the name originated. Had someone obtained DNA they would find family matches across the state and at least two other neighboring states.

If this killer is from a family or families with generations in central IN this might be a problem in itself. I do remember that one point a few individuals came forward and stated they provided DNA swabs to LE. Maybe one or more of such individuals have some very distant - e.g., third, fourth or fifth cousin - to this killer. Too distant for LE to be able to make the connection. AND if LE doesn't even know if it is the killer's DNA, then that just complicates things further.