Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Yemelyan]

A good point. The "hiding in plain sight" aspect. If this killer is currently local - local being anywhere within an hour or so of Delphi - perhaps the problem with the DNA is they have TOO MANY possibilities.

I know if I go to the mid-west where my parents' families are from there are MANY in the county and surrounding counties who have some relationship to me. I remember once while in a community an hour away from where I was visiting I came across two brothers and one of their cousins with the same last name as myself. And my last name is very UNCOMMON as it is an Anglicized version of a European name. I didn't know any of them and they didn't know me. Later when I asked my parents, grandparents and aunts/uncles, they had no clue as to the relationship to us. But they said it wasn't unusual either as this area of the country was where the name originated. Had someone obtained DNA they would find family matches across the state and at least two other neighboring states.

If this killer is from a family or families with generations in central IN this might be a problem in itself. I do remember that one point a few individuals came forward and stated they provided DNA swabs to LE. Maybe one or more of such individuals have some very distant - e.g., third, fourth or fifth cousin - to this killer. Too distant for LE to be able to make the connection. AND if LE doesn't even know if it is the killer's DNA, then that just complicates things further.

I don't think it is legal for LE to use swabs from individuals who submitted DNA in order to clear themselves to do the genetic genealogy comparisons suggested in this post. In my understanding, if any individual submits a DNA swab for comparison in Indiana it can only be compared to the sample from the crime scene for purposes of identification and it is not retained if no direct match is found. I do not believe that it would be legal for Indiana to allow LE to then keep those samples and compare to other cases or to calculate kinship to unidentified samples. Indiana doesn't even allow familial analysis of samples from known criminals in state databases so I doubt this would be allowed for people who have never been convicted or accused of crimes who are submitting DNA voluntarily. All MOO though.

 

[AC4RD]

... If BG is a random serial killer, then his DNA might be unknown, but if he is of a regular Anglo-German stock, I can't imagine they can't find his cousins. These days, a person with totally unknown and unmatched DNA would virtually have to be an alien..

I have to admit I have *no* idea what the numbers actually are. But I'm certain that none of my immediate family, and none of my wife's immediate family, have been genotyped for any reason. I don't know of any of our friends or coworkers who have been typed, though I can't be certain of all of them. Is DNA typing for non-forensic reasons really so common?

 

[Snow_In _June]

Thank you for responding and your theory is interesting. However, looking at the later responses on this thread, and the Gray Hughes video posted, (see below URL) where he attempted to ascertain the time that the lady named Cheyenne was on the bridge (one of the ladies you referred to as following Abby and Libby closely,) Gray Hughes says the time BG was accosting the girls on the bridge was 2:20 p.m. and they time Cheyenne was there taking a photo of the bridge was 3:00 p.m., 40 minutes later. So Cheyenne was actually not following the girls closely, they were 40 minutes apart and Gray Hughes speculated the girls were likely already dead by the time Cheyenne reached the bridge. Cheyenne was apparently alone and she met the 2nd lady at 3:30 on the bridge.

So I think your theory that BG was targeting the two other ladies not Libby and Abby is likely not correct, since there was at least a 40 minute gap between the girls and Cheyenne on the bridge and an 1 hr. & 10 minute gap between the girls and the second lady.

This is just my opinion and the above assumes Gray Hughes is correct in his analysis of the times.

I pray the killer is caught soon and brought to justice.

As do I

I am simply looking at different ideas that may be possible based on what we have been given I dont pertain to be wright or wrong and just keep my mind open to all possibilities.

SIJ

 

[TheVisual]

I, along with many others on here, have speculated on that aspect. 'Recent' is a component of this I wonder about. Not necessarily within a week or so of the murders but maybe even a few months. If it had been a long relationship and she broke it off in the late summer or early fall of 2016, Valentine's Day may have been bringing it all back to him.

Every holiday is a slap in the face to my POI because someone very close to him does not acknowledge him when he emails only at these times to wish them Happy _____because she never wants to have anything to do with him, ever! I would check murders around the holidays and neighboring states.

 

[NeoWise]

Is it known if BG has left any usable DNA at the crime scene?
If that recent 'Mr. Kline' guy leads to nothing then I think by now the only way to get BG is by doing a big DNA investigation: invite everyone from age 18 or above who lives or lived in the Delphi area to give DNA on voluntary base. (of course guaranteed the DNA will only be used for this case) I'm sure a lot of people want to cooperate and it takes only one who is family of BG and you can take it from there.

*an 20 year old 'cold' case here in Holland has been solved this way, there was no sound or video from the suspect only DNA, the suspect fled to Spain right before the DNA investigation started...., he knew he would be caught: GUILTY - Netherlands - Jos Brech, 55, wanted for murder, Vosges (Fr) winter 2018

 

[Yemelyan]

Is it known if BG has left any usable DNA at the crime scene?
If that recent 'Mr. Kline' guy leads to nothing then I think by now the only way to get BG is by doing a big DNA investigation: invite everyone from age 18 or above who lives or lived in the Delphi area to give DNA on voluntary base. (of course guaranteed the DNA will only be used for this case) I'm sure a lot of people want to cooperate and it takes only one who is family of BG and you can take it from there.

*an 20 year old 'cold' case here in Holland has been solved this way, there was no sound or video from the suspect only DNA, the suspect fled to Spain right before the DNA investigation started...., he knew he would be caught: GUILTY - Netherlands - Jos Brech, 55, wanted for murder, Vosges (Fr) winter 2018

This suggestion has been made many times previously; here in the US there are constitutional barriers that make this strategy very difficult to implement. It has been done before in other cases but it has also been legally challenged too. IMO due to the interest in preserving the integrity of their eventual case, LE would use this only as a last resort, and only IF they in fact could prove to a judge that they had standing to do a sweep like this - in other words, that they could show that there is greater likelihood than not that they have an unmatched sample of perpetrator DNA.

The problem is that I'm not sure the Delphi investigators have this; see Leazenby's comments in February of this year to HLN reporter Barbara MacDonald where he said that they have DNA from the scene but they don't know if it is the killer's DNA. I doubt a judge would sign off on a DNA dragnet if there was a chance that the unmatched sample they are looking for is, for example, DNA that could have gotten on the victim's clothes by some innocent means (touch DNA and similar).

Without knowing the type of DNA they have and where they recovered it, we do not know that a DNA sweep is a viable legal strategy for this case. JMO.

 

[WhoRtheKillers]

The ISP said they were taking the investigation in a new direction and had that whole religion/Shack presser.
They said everybody would be surprised to see who it was.

That said, I have noticed a very large number of the most upstanding, respected, and powerful people in that town are affiliated with either the same church or same denomination.

I think they left us a clue here.

That presser seemed very specific in it's vagueness. I think they have somebody specific in mind. Somebody not previously mentioned by them. Somebody publicly religious, well respected, and they have been involved in the investigation. They pretty much said so.

This excludes KAK and JBC as the actual killer.

Hope I haven't broken any rules here. I am still learning.

 

[Doghairrules]

I have to admit I have *no* idea what the numbers actually are. But I'm certain that none of my immediate family, and none of my wife's immediate family, have been genotyped for any reason. I don't know of any of our friends or coworkers who have been typed, though I can't be certain of all of them. Is DNA typing for non-forensic reasons really so common?

I have one niece who has done it, but that's all I know of in my very large family.

 

[justinkjones1993]

Is it known if BG has left any usable DNA at the crime scene?
If that recent 'Mr. Kline' guy leads to nothing then I think by now the only way to get BG is by doing a big DNA investigation: invite everyone from age 18 or above who lives or lived in the Delphi area to give DNA on voluntary base. (of course guaranteed the DNA will only be used for this case) I'm sure a lot of people want to cooperate and it takes only one who is family of BG and you can take it from there.

*an 20 year old 'cold' case here in Holland has been solved this way, there was no sound or video from the suspect only DNA, the suspect fled to Spain right before the DNA investigation started...., he knew he would be caught: GUILTY - Netherlands - Jos Brech, 55, wanted for murder, Vosges (Fr) winter 2018

That's a great way to get the Delphi killer's case tossed in court. Too many legal issues for that to be a realistic way to gather evidence and charge anyone.

 

[MistyWaters]

The ISP said they were taking the investigation in a new direction and had that whole religion/Shack presser.
They said everybody would be surprised to see who it was.

That said, I have noticed a very large number of the most upstanding, respected, and powerful people in that town are affiliated with either the same church or same denomination.

I think they left us a clue here.

That presser seemed very specific in it's vagueness. I think they have somebody specific in mind. Somebody not previously mentioned by them. Somebody publicly religious, well respected, and they have been involved in the investigation. They pretty much said so.

This excludes KAK and JBC as the actual killer.

Hope I haven't broken any rules here. I am still learning.

You might not have watched all previous press conferences but it’s a mistake to assume the biblical references on Apr/17 were specifically unique. One press conference began with a prayer, iirc the investigative team began each day with a prayer, DC has made other biblical references during PCs, a local church held a well-attended prayer service for the girls, and Libby’s family participates in church functions, not sure about Abby’s but I get the impression the church is a very strong focal point for the majority of the community ….in short I think DC is also a man of faith and the majority of the audience he’s speaking to is likewise. So IMO I think the religious references are meaningless in terms of giving the public a clue as to the killer’s identity. It’s just his way of relating to the locals. JMO

 

[Trebor5591]

The ISP said they were taking the investigation in a new direction and had that whole religion/Shack presser.
They said everybody would be surprised to see who it was.

That said, I have noticed a very large number of the most upstanding, respected, and powerful people in that town are affiliated with either the same church or same denomination.

I think they left us a clue here.

That presser seemed very specific in it's vagueness. I think they have somebody specific in mind. Somebody not previously mentioned by them. Somebody publicly religious, well respected, and they have been involved in the investigation. They pretty much said so.

This excludes KAK and JBC as the actual killer.

Hope I haven't broken any rules here. I am still learning.

<modsnip> In my opinion, the murderer of the girls is more likely to be a non-believer than a church-going Christian.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's a great way to get the Delphi killer's case tossed in court. Too many legal issues for that to be a realistic way to gather evidence and charge anyone.

Needle in a haystack IMO. And who in their right mind who’s innocent and may have walked in or around the bridge area or went fishing a time or two on Deer Creek would agree to give LE a DNA sample without being 100% certain that LE even have a conclusive sample from the killer?

 

[AC4RD]

Is it known if BG has left any usable DNA at the crime scene? [...] ... invite everyone from age 18 or above who lives or lived in the Delphi area to give DNA on voluntary base. (of course guaranteed the DNA will only be used for this case) I'm sure a lot of people want to cooperate and it takes only one who is family of BG and you can take it from there.

We were told by law enforcement that they DO have DNA from the crime scene, but the do not know if the DNA is related to the crime. The DNA they have might be from Bridge Guy or it might be from someone who walked his dog in the area days earlier. We also don't know how good the sample(s) may be. So a positive finding, a match, might be powerful evidence, or it might be meaningless.

I'm not sure about the Netherlands, but here in the USA, "inviting" people to submit their DNA will give you (at a guess, and this is just my own opinion) 20 to 40 percent of people flatly refusing to donate samples. That is just how we are, again IMO.

 

[minazoe]

you know every time I start feeling a little disconnected from my favorite.. JBC..I take a wander over to his Facebook page ...funny how absolutely nothing about KAK's FB page is in the least bit provocative ...yet when I wander over to Brian Chadwell (Outlaw) on FB I am more convinced than ever. Just everything about him including the total CREEPY factor sets off five alarm bells.

it's not the peoples comments on there which are hysterically funny at times...it's HIM. it's all him 100 percent.

until they they tell me no , I'm sticking. mOO

 

[Marzipan]

This jacket zips up the front. To me, it seems the jacket BG is wearing in the pics, snaps up the front. This monster needs to be arrested.

Yep, and I’ll just repeat myself here because it’s been a while since I noted that the jacket is just like my dad’s FootJoy golf jacket. No, my dad is not BG. But it’s easy to assume it’s a laborer jacket or a prison release jacket —and very well could be. Probably is. But it could also be a golf or other sport jacket.

 

[WhoRtheKillers]

I do not think he was specifically and intentionally giving the community a clue. I believe he was addressing a poi. He said as much. He also said they were investigating differently and the poi was a person who, when identified, would be a shock to the community.

 

[Boxer]

You might not have watched all previous press conferences but it’s a mistake to assume the biblical references on Apr/17 were specifically unique. One press conference began with a prayer, iirc the investigative team began each day with a prayer, DC has made other biblical references during PCs, a local church held a well-attended prayer service for the girls, and Libby’s family participates in church functions, not sure about Abby’s but I get the impression the church is a very strong focal point for the majority of the community ….in short I think DC is also a man of faith and the majority of the audience he’s speaking to is likewise. So IMO I think the religious references are meaningless in terms of giving the public a clue as to the killer’s identity. It’s just his way of relating to the locals. JMO

True.
The CCSO Sheriff carried straight up Easter Prayers on their website.
It's an extremely homogenous area.

 

[LeBlack]

I have to admit I have *no* idea what the numbers actually are. But I'm certain that none of my immediate family, and none of my wife's immediate family, have been genotyped for any reason. I don't know of any of our friends or coworkers who have been typed, though I can't be certain of all of them. Is DNA typing for non-forensic reasons really so common?

Genealogy has gotten more popular with the internet because it no longer involves sending off for records, writing letters, etc.
When you hit a brick wall (ie John Smith) DNA helps. This is similar to how you would use it to track a criminal. Triangulation.

The PROBLEM for genealogy and for finding criminals- NPE (where the father isn't the father somewhere along the line) and secret adoptions.

I have several 1st cousins on both sides of my family that have done this. If you have a couple of 2nd cousins that have had this done, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to find you.

Not everyone is going to broadcast that they have done it.


MOO

 

[TwoLea]

I have to admit I have *no* idea what the numbers actually are. But I'm certain that none of my immediate family, and none of my wife's immediate family, have been genotyped for any reason. I don't know of any of our friends or coworkers who have been typed, though I can't be certain of all of them. Is DNA typing for non-forensic reasons really so common?

It is used increasingly in medicine. Genetic testing can, for example, indicate which medications are best to treat an individual's medical condition. (I have seen this primarily mentioned in reviews of anti-depressants and similar drugs, because people can be highly sensitive to the effects of the drug and/or receive no - or negative - benefit from taking it.)

 

[TL4S]

you know every time I start feeling a little disconnected from my favorite.. JBC..I take a wander over to his Facebook page ...funny how absolutely nothing about KAK's FB page is in the least bit provocative ...yet when I wander over to Brian Chadwell (Outlaw) on FB I am more convinced than ever. Just everything about him including the total CREEPY factor sets off five alarm bells.

it's not the peoples comments on there which are hysterically funny at times...it's HIM. it's all him 100 percent.

until they they tell me no , I'm sticking. mOO

JBC certainly does make for a seemingly ideal POI, but so have others. I have to remind myself that we only have a fraction of the information LE possesses and it's their job to be thorough. I wouldn't want them to jump on any one person based on circumstantial fb posts, etc, but then miss the real killer. Because whoever killed those poor girls is a danger to us all.