Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[StarryStarryNight]

How did you find it? How did you learn her name?

I don’t really remember. Someone else found it. Maybe off her grandmother’s FB??? Not much help I know.

 

[Charlot123]

I refuse to hang on every word of that press conference...all I hear is that we would be surprised. well just about anyone would be surprised if someone they knew did this horrible crime..I really feel he didn't want people to rule out the next door neighbor or uncle Joe Joe...just because they are a school teacher or church person..

I really never felt they had a particular person in mind..I think maybe your interpretation is a little too literal.

jmOO

No one is perfect, I think the case is dragging on for so long ). However, I think the words are not from that conference, they belong to TL and were said reasonably early, in 2017 or so. I don’t know what he meant, so I am trying to imagine who would surprise me as the candidate. Answer: except for the scum of the earth, everyone would be a surprise to me, if I lived next to these people. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I have to admit I have *no* idea what the numbers actually are. But I'm certain that none of my immediate family, and none of my wife's immediate family, have been genotyped for any reason. I don't know of any of our friends or coworkers who have been typed, though I can't be certain of all of them. Is DNA typing for non-forensic reasons really so common?

I’m not certain, but I think my sister did some kind of Ancestry.com type of thing where she included her DNA.
I don’t know if it was from a hair on her head, or a a drop of her blood, but haven’t there been criminal cases solved due to just that sort of thing?

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I don’t really remember. Someone else found it. Maybe off her grandmother’s FB??? Not much help I know.

It’s okay, just curious is all.

 

[Charlot123]

A good point. The "hiding in plain sight" aspect. If this killer is currently local - local being anywhere within an hour or so of Delphi - perhaps the problem with the DNA is they have TOO MANY possibilities.

I know if I go to the mid-west where my parents' families are from there are MANY in the county and surrounding counties who have some relationship to me. I remember once while in a community an hour away from where I was visiting I came across two brothers and one of their cousins with the same last name as myself. And my last name is very UNCOMMON as it is an Anglicized version of a European name. I didn't know any of them and they didn't know me. Later when I asked my parents, grandparents and aunts/uncles, they had no clue as to the relationship to us. But they said it wasn't unusual either as this area of the country was where the name originated. Had someone obtained DNA they would find family matches across the state and at least two other neighboring states.

If this killer is from a family or families with generations in central IN this might be a problem in itself. I do remember that one point a few individuals came forward and stated they provided DNA swabs to LE. Maybe one or more of such individuals have some very distant - e.g., third, fourth or fifth cousin - to this killer. Too distant for LE to be able to make the connection. AND if LE doesn't even know if it is the killer's DNA, then that just complicates things further.

What also might be a problem if he, indeed, is “local”, has moved away but has many relatives in the area…when people live in a small village/townlet for several centuries, there is inevitably some level of endogamy going on. Not that people intentionally marry cousins, but the smaller the community, the easier it to become “double second cousins”, for example. I noticed this effect in one relative whose ancestors lived in a similar small place for generations. What it means for genealogy, you see a person matching someone at the level of a second cousin, but IRL, he is third or fourth cousin both on maternal and paternal lines. So his common ancestor with the person whose DNA is tested is, IRL, farther in time than in seems.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Libby's sister, KG, doesn't seem to think so. I keep coming back to WHY isn't she worried? Where does this confidence come from? If the person is still out there, shouldn't all young females around Delphi and their families be worried?

Odd, indeed. IMO

 

[Charlot123]

A good point. The "hiding in plain sight" aspect. If this killer is currently local - local being anywhere within an hour or so of Delphi - perhaps the problem with the DNA is they have TOO MANY possibilities.

I know if I go to the mid-west where my parents' families are from there are MANY in the county and surrounding counties who have some relationship to me. I remember once while in a community an hour away from where I was visiting I came across two brothers and one of their cousins with the same last name as myself. And my last name is very UNCOMMON as it is an Anglicized version of a European name. I didn't know any of them and they didn't know me. Later when I asked my parents, grandparents and aunts/uncles, they had no clue as to the relationship to us. But they said it wasn't unusual either as this area of the country was where the name originated. Had someone obtained DNA they would find family matches across the state and at least two other neighboring states.

If this killer is from a family or families with generations in central IN this might be a problem in itself. I do remember that one point a few individuals came forward and stated they provided DNA swabs to LE. Maybe one or more of such individuals have some very distant - e.g., third, fourth or fifth cousin - to this killer. Too distant for LE to be able to make the connection. AND if LE doesn't even know if it is the killer's DNA, then that just complicates things further.

What also might be a problem if he, indeed, is “local”, has moved away but has many relatives in the area…when people live in a small village/townlet for several centuries, there is inevitably some level of endogamy going on. Not that people intentionally marry cousins, but the smaller the community, the easier it to become “double second cousins”, for example. I noticed this effect in one relative whose ancestors lived in a similar small place for generations. What it means for genealogy, you see a person matching someone at the level of a second cousin, but IRL, he is third or fourth cousin both on maternal and paternal lines. So his common ancestor with the person whose DNA is tested is, IRL, farther in time than in seems.

 

[FromGermany1]

I think JBC is not talking and so they are going to find him out on their own...and they will find him out if he is the one..for me, he is the one, they don't have to say anything, but if they have moved on I don't see any reason to beat around the bush do you? we really don't know anthony shots isn't another connection to him do we?

he wrote on his facebook he wanted to start a youth group and he would pay whatever it takes..
he would just need someone to watch his backdoor.

what is this youth group idea ? and what is the backdoor that needs to be watched?

knowing what he is convicted of...how would you interpret this one for instance?

mOO

bbm

 

[sunshineray]

No one is perfect, I think the case is dragging on for so long ). However, I think the words are not from that conference, they belong to TL and were said reasonably early, in 2017 or so. I don’t know what he meant, so I am trying to imagine who would surprise me as the candidate. Answer: except for the scum of the earth, everyone would be a surprise to me, if I lived next to these people. JMO.

The other thing that Sheriff Leazenby said that kind of gave me chills was that he felt he'd heard that voice. I know that the quality of the audio not being the best, since Libby had to mostly likely hide her phone, could make a voice sound pretty generic. Still the Sheriff thinking he'd heard BG's voice before always stuck in my mind as chilling. AJMO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

We were told by law enforcement that they DO have DNA from the crime scene, but the do not know if the DNA is related to the crime. The DNA they have might be from Bridge Guy or it might be from someone who walked his dog in the area days earlier. We also don't know how good the sample(s) may be. So a positive finding, a match, might be powerful evidence, or it might be meaningless.

I'm not sure about the Netherlands, but here in the USA, "inviting" people to submit their DNA will give you (at a guess, and this is just my own opinion) 20 to 40 percent of people flatly refusing to donate samples. That is just how we are, again IMO.

I think you might be too optimistic with those percentages. I would think only maybe 15 percent or so would submit DNA if invited. I think most people in the United States have a general distrust of assurances over potential tracking, data gathering, how it will and won't be used (now and in the future), etc.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I would say something less than but approaching half of the people I know have submitted their DNA to a genealogical database. Start a conversation simply about genetics, like "I'm pretty sure I'm mostly off German descent but I don't know 100% for sure..." and I guarantee you that somebody will be glad to tell you all about how they swabbed themselves and mailed it off and were surprised about the results they received.

Unless there comes a trend of people intentionally poisoning the well by sending in swabs of random people under various identities it's not a question of if there will be an effectively complete database of our DNA, just of when.

But it still remains to be seen what limits may be put on the data or the challenges to current use that may come.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

By LE statements(I think it was in the HLN Down The Hill special)they do not know if the unidentified DNA they have belongs to the killer. To me that means it’s only touch DNA, not up close and personal on the girls, not under their fingernails etc. It could just as easily be the stocker at Walmart that shelved their jacket as it could be the killer. I think it is highly likely that when an arrest is made, the killer’s DNA will not match what they have.
In my opinion, DNA is not going to track down the killer. I kinda doubt it will be a big part of the trial

 

[HistoryNut]

Libby's sister, KG, doesn't seem to think so. I keep coming back to WHY isn't she worried? Where does this confidence come from? If the person is still out there, shouldn't all young females around Delphi and their families be worried?

The only explanation I can think of is the ISP have shared something with her. MOO

 

[Boxer]

Agree. I always hope that sometime, naybe dreaming Leazenby's memory skips down a practically closed memory path and he remembers.
He comes into contact with: criminals, prisoners, community members, court workers, and on and on, it's a vast pool for one a time encounter with no reference tume or place.

The other thing that Sheriff Leazenby said that kind of gave me chills was that he felt he'd heard that voice. I know that the quality of the audio not being the best, since Libby had to mostly likely hide her phone, could make a voice sound pretty generic. Still the Sheriff thinking he'd heard BG's voice before always stuck in my mind as chilling. AJMO

 

[AC4RD]

OK, maybe you are in the field (e.g., military) where it is not common to genotype relatives. But look at it in this way: you might have relatives, second cousins, who are not even close to you, are into genealogy and have done the genetic studies.
[...]
Same applies to you. You can’t call all your cousins and forbid them to do genealogy tests. ... [...] (too rare is bad, too common is worse, a common with a private mutation is bad, DNA not linked to a tree is bad…you name it!).

Adam's genetic sequence began AAAA AAAA AAAA AAAA ... and then Eve's begain ABAA AAAA AAAA ... ;-)

I don't disagree with you, not a bit! I'm familiar with some of the medical aspects: we started looking (at my lab facility) at human DNA in the early 2000s, for predicting aggressiveness of tumors and response to chemotherapy agents, and in particular, pulmonary toxicity after high-dose chemo. A few years after that we were collecting (highly deidentified) markers for restrictive and obstructive pulmonary disease. (When I retired a couple of years ago, we had a fairly large database of murine DNA--maybe I should offer to test mice and tell them their ancestry.) ;-)

I'm just a little surprised at how many people have sent DNA samples to commercial sites. A news story ( https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/12/pri...26-million-share-dna-with-ancestry-firms.html ) says 26 million, 2 years ago; it's probably at least doubled since then, at a guess.

I'm just surprised that so many people are interested, really. And I'd be delighted if that commercial database (the major private familial DNA companies) brings Bridge Guy to the gallows. That's what caught Arliss Perry's killer ( Murder of Arlis Perry - Wikipedia ) after all those years. But submitting a sample for DNA just seems unlikely TO ME personally. YMMV and obviously over 50 million people in the USA disagree.

We don't have any known familial-traced diseases on either side; there's no known indication for testing for medical reasons (at present.) I can look at my mother's family and see mostly British farmers, on my dad's side I see mostly German farmers; I honestly don't have any curiosity about anything further. Obviously a lot of people DO have that curiosity!

Having DNA turn up a BG link would be fantastic, and I'm sure the Delphi case's police are watching new (legal and/or consented) uploads regularly. Today, as we say, might be The Day.

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

Several people I know have done it because of adoption. They, a parent or grandparent is an adoptee and they want to fill in the missing part of the family tree that gets talked about at the Thanksgiving table.

 

[AC4RD]

... ...
Consider this: JBC has poor executive function, he is no planner. To grab a neighbor child and assault her (poor kid), even use his dog, then immediately get arrested, to disappear in prison forever. How long does one need to royally mess up with own life?

With BG, we have a person of whom a picture and a video and an audio exists. Maybe DNA. To no avail.

I don’t know his IQ (I suspect, high), but BG can plan! He had good executive function. Even if he has ADD, it is treated, but chances are, there is none; he is simply very organized and a planner.

100% agree. I'm surprised (no offense!) that so many people seem sure JBC is BG, but that's a great summary IMO of why it's exceedingly unlikely. JBC's crime was overwhelmingly incompetent, as far as avoiding discovery and jail. BG planned whatever he did extremely well, and then carried it out with people not far away from him, and then got clean away. Totally different IMO.

 

[Trebor5591]

I’m not certain, but I think my sister did some kind of Ancestry.com type of thing where she included her DNA.
I don’t know if it was from a hair on her head, or a a drop of her blood, but haven’t there been criminal cases solved due to just that sort of thing?

Ancestry.com and the other DNA sites use a tube of saliva to obtain the DNA sample.

 

[Trebor5591]

100% agree. I'm surprised (no offense!) that so many people seem sure JBC is BG, but that's a great summary IMO of why it's exceedingly unlikely. JBC's crime was overwhelmingly incompetent, as far as avoiding discovery and jail. BG planned whatever he did extremely well, and then carried it out with people not far away from him, and then got clean away. Totally different IMO.

Has law enforcement determined if the Delphi murders were the result of an organize or disorganized killer? I am not so certain BG was such a great planner. In my opinion, he just got lucky.

Here's my theory and opinion on what happened: Please don't read on if you are easily disturbed.
1) BG arrives where he expected to see either Abby or Abby to meet a good looking young guy. They expected this because of BGs "catfishing" the girl, using the photo of the young Alaska cop.
2) He sees Libby together and decides to kidnap them both and take them in his vehicle to a secondary location where he can molest and murder them.
2) BG traps Abby and Libby against the end of the bridge, produces a gun, and tells them to go down the hill towards the cemetery, near where his vehicle is.
3) BG overestimates his ability to control Abby and Libby. Abby and Libby at some point make a break for it and run away from the guy. Libby loses her shoe during the run. Unfortunately, in their panic, the girls run across the creek, and into a dead end, hilly area that is the murder site.
4) Because Abby and Libby boxed themselves into the dead end murder site, BG is able to catch up with them and quickly murders them.
5) After the murders, BG poses them in typical serial killer fashion, <modsnip> (This is why at the news conference LE said "Where Libby and Abby are now is not how you left them."
6) BG tosses some of their clothing into the nearby creak where it is discovered later by searchers.
7) BG exits through the cemetery and walks to his vehicle.

This is just my opinion and theory on what transpired that horrible day. I pray for justice for Abby and Libby. May their killer be brought to justice soon.

 

[minazoe]

I agree with a good deal of your scenario. mOO

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding DNA and databases, I wonder how much good that will do here. Where I live, a large metropolitan area, I know of a lot of folks that done it just to see what their background is. What country, what race(s) or ethnic group. BUT when I go back to where I grew up, a MUCH smaller community, I haven't run across any. In fact, a couple of folks there believe I'm out of my mind to voluntarily give up my DNA. From what little time I've had in IN they are very much like where I grew up. Not to say there isn't any, just probably fewer of them from central IN than from places like CA, NY or VA.