Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[Prime8]

I was under the impression that AW heard the audio herself, as well as saw the video (more than the few seconds released to the public) of the girls as BG was approaching them. She wrote her first hand experience down and that's what was shared. I don't understand why that would change it being the first hand account of AW? History books and archives are full of written first hand accounts that stand as fact and reference.

I do understand it's not LE offically telling the public something. It is though, IMO, a mother of a victim giving us her first hand account of evidence she experienced.

Please don't think I want to argue, I truly don't. We just don't agree and that's alright. I appreciate your thoughts, your views.

Yes, I know. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do think it's important for everyone to separate fact from speculation. Do I think what GH says it true? Probably. AW gave a first-hand account to GH (if she's going on what she heard/saw and not what LE said). Publications/books/archives are supposed to be vetted, meaning there should be tangible proof/corroboration of the first-hand account. That's why going to a peer-reviewed publication for scientific information is better than hearing about it through a friend of a friend who knows some doctor on Facebook - there are standards to that publication. GH isn't vetted by anyone, he's not accountable to anyone, he doesn't have direct proof of the info he's sharing. WS "vetting" him doesn't mean anything either because we don't have a way to vet WS. If we watched the video/audio, we would have first-hand information. If GH watched it and we had some sort of confirmation of that, we would be getting his first-hand account and it would be second-hand info to us. Throw in AW telling GH of her first-hand account, we're getting the information after it's passed through multiple people and like the game of telephone, things can be misconstrued. And it's honestly super simple to change the wording when presenting these things to change it - "GH claims to have first-hand information from AW that on the video, this is what was said." vs. "The girls said this in the video. Here's my proof."

 

[Prime8]

I was under the impression that AW heard the audio herself, as well as saw the video (more than the few seconds released to the public) of the girls as BG was approaching them. She wrote her first hand experience down and that's what was shared. I don't understand why that would change it being the first hand account of AW? History books and archives are full of written first hand accounts that stand as fact and reference.

I do understand it's not LE offically telling the public something. It is though, IMO, a mother of a victim giving us her first hand account of evidence she experienced.

Please don't think I want to argue, I truly don't. We just don't agree and that's alright. I appreciate your thoughts, your views.

Yes, I know. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do think it's important for everyone to separate fact from speculation. Do I think what GH says it true? Probably (I feel like I saw AW herself speaking about it somewhere but I can't find it).

Publications/books/archives are supposed to be vetted, meaning there should be tangible proof/corroboration of the first-hand account. That's why going to a peer-reviewed publications for scientific information is better than hearing about it through a friend of a friend who knows a doctor - there are standards for that publication. GH isn't vetted by anyone, he's not accountable to anyone, he doesn't have direct proof of the info he's sharing. WS "vetting" him doesn't mean anything either because we don't have any way to vet WS and they aren't accountable to anyone (that doesn't mean they don't have a good reputation).

If we watched the video/audio, we would have first-hand information. If GH watched it and we had some sort of confirmation of that, we would be getting his first-hand account and it would be second-hand info to us. Throw in AW telling GH of her first-hand account, we're getting the information after it's passed through multiple people and like the game of telephone, things can be misconstrued. And it's honestly super simple to change the wording when presenting these things to change it - "GH claims to have first-hand information from AW that on the video, this is what was said." vs. "The girls said this in the video. Here's my proof."

 

[flashy09]

Maybe I’m being optimistic, but I’ve always felt that LE has someone in mind but there’s a (false) alibi. Once the alibi giver comes clean, then maybe there will be some momentum.

How strong can an alibi be without proof? I am legitimately asking this question, not questioning you! If somebody says "yes he was here" but had no surveillance cameras, no digital proof, etc, does that really matter?

Which leads me to another question. How far can LE go researching a suspicious person with an alibi? Can they pull up his phone pings and credit card/bank receipts to verify the alibi? Or does that person have to reach POI or suspect level vs just "suspicious?" Hope I making sense. Just trying to figure out if LE could really have someone in mind and be stifled by an alibi giver's word. I feel like it's probably more lack of evidence than an alibi that keeps LE from arresting anyone they have in mind.

 

[Prime8]

How strong can an alibi be without proof? I am legitimately asking this question, not questioning you! If somebody says "yes he was here" but had no surveillance cameras, no digital proof, etc, does that really matter?

Which leads me to another question. How far can LE go researching a suspicious person with an alibi? Can they pull up his phone pings and credit card/bank receipts to verify the alibi? Or does that person have to reach POI or suspect level vs just "suspicious?" Hope I making sense. Just trying to figure out if LE could really have someone in mind and be stifled by an alibi giver's word. I feel like it's probably more lack of evidence than an alibi that keeps LE from arresting anyone they have in mind.

An alibi may not matter in terms of being a suspect but it could jeopardize a trial, or even just getting a warrant of any sort. If it's a spouse, that spouse does not have to testify for or against the person charged. So you're stuck in court just trying to prove that someone is lying about the alibi and that person doesn't have to testify. I'm not even sure you could say a spouse is lying without that spouse testifying.

I think it depends on if they can get a search warrant or not. I think search warrants have to be pretty specific and they do need some sort of information to back up the need. Judges can also run the spectrum a bit on what they approve. I would imagine phone, bank, credit cards are on the harder side to obtain. I do think that they got a warrant for all the cell phones used in the area during the time of the murders - I don't know how far they can go with that.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

This is the second or third time in the last couple of weeks someone has mentioned “a refrigerated truck driver”.
Is this just part of a generalized scenario or somebody specific that has entered the conversation? No names necessary of course. Just trying to understand the narrative.

It was on Tuesday by somequestions. I looked it up and it has been mentioned by SQ on 9 separate occasions, not including this past Tuesday, starting on thread #105 on 6/8/19, and then again on:


6/10/19

6/13/19

6/26/19

7/3/19

12/19/20

2/10/21

5/12/21

5/13/21


And was addressed just like you by RFA (rosesfromangels) on 6/26/19.

I hope that sq has turned in their evidence sometime in 2019, or even well be now, when they expressed their theory here for the first time.


JMVHO.

 

[MistyWaters]

It was on Tuesday by somequestions. I looked it up and it has been mentioned by SQ on 9 separate occasions, not including this past Tuesday, starting on thread #105 on 6/8/19, and then again on:


6/10/19

6/13/19

6/26/19

7/3/19

12/19/20

2/10/21

5/12/21

5/13/21


And was addressed just like you by RFA (rosesfromangels) on 6/26/19.

I hope that sq has turned in their evidence sometime in 2019, or even well be now, when they expressed their theory here for the first time.


JMVHO.

Yes indeed, repeatedly. I also recall the poster stating the tip had been forwarded more than once.

First post on every thread from Tricia -
If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

The trail was a popular meeting place for teens, for dog walking, family hiking. Especially in broad daylight it was considered safe. Delphi was a small town and nothing like the murders of two young girls had ever happened before.

Not anymore.

 

[Charlot123]

l


True. In a case where you do not have a lot of information one can only speculate about what the killer may have done, where he may have gone after the murders, and why he may have made the decisions he did.

I definitely agree with your last statement about people not noticing. People will notice, but only when it seems strange or unusual. Even the police statement about how the girls were left in the woods is a visual indication that something about the crime scene was noticeable to the point that it left an impression. Unfortunately since we have no idea about what the crime scene looked like, we can only speculate.

I still think it was a refrigerated truck driver that murdered Abby and Libby. The clothing out on the trail and the patience to abduct them without a vehicle nearby suggest to me it is a possibility that an older man who works as a truck driver murdered Abby and Libby. That would explain my last question: Where was the vehicle? With it possibly being a semi truck, that is a question that has to be answered. My guess is that the vehicle was parked far enough away from the Monon High Bridge area that the killer had a long walk to it after the crime. Wherever he walked and whatever street he was on, it must have been rather desolate or people simply did not notice.

Italicized by me.

I do not remember a single story of a killer returning to mutilate or pose humans, but there recently was a guy who did it to animals. Never caught.

The so-called “serial cat killer” in Olympia, WA. Google him, it is nasty enough, but returning to arrange for the public to see the remains is what surprises me. Some exhibitionist of own work.

It happened in 2018. What really draws my attention is the fact that the animals were mutilated and left on display near the houses. Very accurately, possibly, the scenes could be called “pristine”, too.

One unhappy animal owner even compared the guy to “an arsonist”, “like an arsonist returning to the fire, he returns to the scene to display”. For some reason, it stayed in my memory.

Also, little DNA was found except for probably one glove, and some DNA from under the claws of one cat. I wonder if DNA obtained from animal killers with specific behavior can be compared with that from human cases? I know that animal killers eventually “grow” into human ones, but can some alternate?

 

[somequestions]

By “refrigerated truck driver” are you referring to a semi truck driver from the meat packing plant? Or some other type of refrigerated truck?

I will address the refrigerated truck driver since it was asked. The refrigerated truck driver theory is based on a person, a refrigerated meat truck driver, I saw a long way from Delphi, IN. It was not the Delphi meat packing plant. I do not know this person's name. If I did I would have submitted it. I could only give a description from what I remembered.

The first time I submitted info was March 2017 after Liberty German's grandparents had a press conference asking for help. I waited over a month because I thought the case would be solved quickly. The last time was sometime after the April 2019 press conference for a total of 5 times submitted.

The theory of the refrigerated truck driver is something I thought might be possible.

 

[magnetic]

.

 

[FromGermany1]

++

Agree.

There is a strange dichotomy here. On the one hand, the way DC is trying to shame the person, indicates a younger man. On the other hand, the guy’s organization would rather point at the higher end of the age spectrum we have.

I always thought the perp was not religious. I am now wondering if he could have been psychotically religious, like, say, Robert Lewis Dear. That would be at odds with the killer’s mental organization, but could explain some words DC used speaking “directly” to him. After all, of this aspect (what happened that day, how the girls were left), we know nothing, and DC, everything. Or else, the killer is the person who is known to loudly profess his religiosity, and inside, is very different.

Do you think, the killer once in his past (ie. within last 10 years) could have professed to religiosity or do you think, he had done so necessarily still in 2017?
ETA: Do you think, he once in his past could have served in a church?

 

[Charlot123]

++

Do you think, the killer once in his past (ie. within last 6-8 years) could have professed to religiosity or do you think, he had done so necessarily still in 2017?

Interesting question. I think that deep inside, he has one god, himself, so he judges people on their loyalty to him, and god forbid it is broken. This being said, if (only if) he has episodes of true psychosis, his interest in religion and philosophy during these times peaks, and then it abates.

However, “Walking in plain sight”, to me, means “ability to mimicry”. So if he lives in Indiana, or any place where “the right” religion is almost obligatory, BG might allude to the Bible to prove own “trustworthiness”. If he has moved, not so much.

 

[Prime8]

Italicized by me.

I do not remember a single story of a killer returning to mutilate or pose humans, but there recently was a guy who did it to animals. Never caught.

Ted Bundy returned to the body of many of his victims. I believe Gary Ridgeway also was suspected of returning. I just hear this week that they suspect Larry Bell returned to at least one of his victims. There are of course many killers who keep the bodies in their house for post-mortem activity. I know there are more but can't think of any off the top of my head. There are also many victims who aren't found or found long after their death which we have no way of knowing - I suspect that if someone is planning on returning, they would take more care to leave the body in a secluded place.

 

[TTF14]

How strong can an alibi be without proof? I am legitimately asking this question, not questioning you! If somebody says "yes he was here" but had no surveillance cameras, no digital proof, etc, does that really matter?

Which leads me to another question. How far can LE go researching a suspicious person with an alibi? Can they pull up his phone pings and credit card/bank receipts to verify the alibi? Or does that person have to reach POI or suspect level vs just "suspicious?" Hope I making sense. Just trying to figure out if LE could really have someone in mind and be stifled by an alibi giver's word. I feel like it's probably more lack of evidence than an alibi that keeps LE from arresting anyone they have in mind.

Police said they were "just beginning" in April 2019. Something changed. Maybe they realized the timeline was way off or some other circumstance they were assuming the entire time was not actually accurate. That would mess up some alibis.

If I provided an alibi that my friend Joe could not have killed Jane at 2:15PM across town because I have him on my doorbell camera at 2:14PM, and then later it's found out the timeline was wrong, and Jane might have actually been killed at 11:00AM, my alibi is no longer good. What's unknown to us, though, is why it can't be proven (yet) that Jane was killed at 11AM and not 2:15PM.

 

[zencompass]

I will address the refrigerated truck driver since it was asked. The refrigerated truck driver theory is based on a person, a refrigerated meat truck driver, I saw a long way from Delphi, IN. It was not the Delphi meat packing plant. I do not know this person's name. If I did I would have submitted it. I could only give a description from what I remembered.

The first time I submitted info was March 2017 after Liberty German's grandparents had a press conference asking for help. I waited over a month because I thought the case would be solved quickly. The last time was sometime after the April 2019 press conference for a total of 5 times submitted.

The theory of the refrigerated truck driver is something I thought might be possible.

Dear @somequestions,

You are such a wonderful, compassionate person for submitting the information to the tip line!

The theory of a refrigerated truck driver makes great sense and is certainly possible, especially your comment that perhaps explained why BG was so bundled up on a mild day!

There are car washes near Monon High Bridge- where a truck parked there for hours - would not seem amiss.

Some are within a short walking distance along the highway.

Is it possible that BG parked at a car wash nearby and then walked to the trails?

If BG walked up to the car wash - completely soaked (or soaked on his legs), that would not seem amiss at a car wash.

It might seem like he was heavily splashed while washing his vehicle and I don't think anyone would find this unusual at a car wash.

I'd love to hear others' opinions on this. Thanks in advance!


James Brian Chadwell: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

“I’ve had this school boy crush on this girl since the car wash and train trussle. I’m not what she deserves but I’m trying to be something. Even if she never talks to me again, at least I’ll know I was a part. Baby. Please don’t make me keep searching for you, when I know exactly where you are. You will always be my dream girl. Can we just skip all the formalities?”

 

[OverTheRhine]

Dear @somequestions,


The theory of a refrigerated truck driver makes great sense and is certainly possible, especially your comment that perhaps explained why BG was so bundled up on a mild day!

It was high 30's in the AM and around 50 at the time the girls were killed. I'd say that jacket was fitting for the weather. I'd even venture to say he had been there since the AM waiting for a potential victim.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Dear @somequestions,

You are such a wonderful, compassionate person for submitting the information to the tip line!

The theory of a refrigerated truck driver makes great sense and is certainly possible, especially your comment that perhaps explained why BG was so bundled up on a mild day!

There are car washes near Monon High Bridge- where a truck parked there for hours - would not seem amiss.

Some are within a short walking distance along the highway.

Is it possible that BG parked at a car wash nearby and then walked to the trails?

If BG walked up to the car wash - completely soaked (or soaked on his legs), that would not seem amiss at a car wash.

It might seem like he was heavily splashed while washing his vehicle and I don't think anyone would find this unusual at a car wash.

I'd love to hear others' opinions on this. Thanks in advance!


James Brian Chadwell: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

“I’ve had this school boy crush on this girl since the car wash and train trussle. I’m not what she deserves but I’m trying to be something. Even if she never talks to me again, at least I’ll know I was a part. Baby. Please don’t make me keep searching for you, when I know exactly where you are. You will always be my dream girl. Can we just skip all the formalities?”

An interesting thought about no one noticing at a car wash that BG’s pants were wet from the creek crossing.

 

[LeBlack]

Ted Bundy returned to the body of many of his victims. I believe Gary Ridgeway also was suspected of returning. I just hear this week that they suspect Larry Bell returned to at least one of his victims. There are of course many killers who keep the bodies in their house for post-mortem activity. I know there are more but can't think of any off the top of my head. There are also many victims who aren't found or found long after their death which we have no way of knowing - I suspect that if someone is planning on returning, they would take more care to leave the body in a secluded place.

Unless he wasn't able to.

 

[zencompass]

It was high 30's in the AM and around 50 at the time the girls were killed. I'd say that jacket was fitting for the weather. I'd even venture to say he had been there since the AM waiting for a potential victim.

Dear @OverTheRhine,

It is possible that he had been lurking/waiting since the morning that day since we have no idea of knowing.

Still, the jacket was fully zipped up and his hands were buried in his pockets - but then he could have been hiding gloves he was wearing - or even something nefarious in his pocket he was holding onto.

I am hoping so much that there is an arrest before the 5th anniversary of this horrible event. There is always hope.

 

[TheVisual]

Dear @OverTheRhine,

It is possible that he had been lurking/waiting since the morning that day since we have no idea of knowing.

Still, the jacket was fully zipped up and his hands were buried in his pockets - but then he could have been hiding gloves he was wearing - or even something nefarious in his pocket he was holding onto.

I am hoping so much that there is an arrest before the 5th anniversary of this horrible event. There is always hope.

It's obvious his jacket was not zipped up and his hands were not buried in his pockets.