Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

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So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.
BBM. Respectfully snipped by me for focus.

I am in agreement with you about looking at this from the start again. JMVHO.
I started doing that but then came down with CV, and have not gone back to read where I left off. But Ima start again this evening. Thanks for the reminder and the good suggestion!
 
The non-secretor is a possibility. IIRC, Sheriff Leazenby said they have fingerprint(s?) but maybe no DNA because of that? As always...a possibility.
Wait, see this is what sucks about the years going by, details fade more and more - maybe I’m having a brain fart which is totally likely, but I’m not remembering “fingerprints”?



Eta:

I’m googling more on chimerism just out of curiosity, and came across this - See photo at link, wild - interesting article, also imo

This Woman Is Her Own Twin: What Is Chimerism?


“Most of the time, people with chimerism probably go undiagnosed, Tarshish said. Indeed, without specific biomedical tests (such as genetic testing), it's impossible for doctors to tell that a patient is a chimera, according to a 2009 paper about the condition. But there may be subtle clues to this condition: Some people with chimerism have "patchy" skin coloration (like Muhl does) or different-colored eyes, the paper said. In some cases, chimerism is diagnosed when a person is found to have two different blood types.”

[...]

“Doctors have told Muhl that she has "two immune systems and two bloodstreams," she wrote in a blog post published in March 2017, meaning cells in her immune system and her blood have two sets of DNA.”

[...]

“It's hard to predict how the condition will manifest or which tissues will be most affected, Tarshish said. But it's common for one cell line to outgrow the other, so people end up having the majority of their cells come from one set of DNA, rather than a 50-50 split between the cell lines, Tarshish said.”

[...]

“Because chimerism is hard to diagnose, it's probably more common than we think, Tarshish said, although overall, it's still probably pretty rare.

Some cases of human chimerism have been reported before. For example, in 2002, a woman named Karen Keegan needed a kidney transplant, and doctors were puzzled when tests of possible family donors showed that she could not be the mother of two of her three sons, according to a report of the case. The mystery was solved when doctors discovered that Keegan was a chimera — the set of DNA in her blood cells was different from that in the other tissues in her body.”
 
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No, it would not be relevant. Because "nonsecretor" simply doesn't secrete some blood antigens into the sperm or saliva, but DNA is still present, in all cells. It was Important in pre-DNA era. At that time, criminalists would rely on ABO system antigens in the sperm found at the CS. At least (thought they), it should match the blood type. Nonsecretor status was not known at that time.
Sorry I misunderstood. I went back and read Yemelyan's post. Non-secretors are not a problem for forensics.
 
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Wait, see this is what sucks about the years going by, details fade more and more - maybe I’m having a brain fart which is totally likely, but I’m not remembering “fingerprints”?



Eta:

I’m googling more on chimerism just out of curiosity, and came across this - See photo at link, wild - interesting article, also imo

This Woman Is Her Own Twin: What Is Chimerism?


“Most of the time, people with chimerism probably go undiagnosed, Tarshish said. Indeed, without specific biomedical tests (such as genetic testing), it's impossible for doctors to tell that a patient is a chimera, according to a 2009 paper about the condition. But there may be subtle clues to this condition: Some people with chimerism have "patchy" skin coloration (like Muhl does) or different-colored eyes, the paper said. In some cases, chimerism is diagnosed when a person is found to have two different blood types.”

[...]

“Doctors have told Muhl that she has "two immune systems and two bloodstreams," she wrote in a blog post published in March 2017, meaning cells in her immune system and her blood have two sets of DNA.”

[...]

“It's hard to predict how the condition will manifest or which tissues will be most affected, Tarshish said. But it's common for one cell line to outgrow the other, so people end up having the majority of their cells come from one set of DNA, rather than a 50-50 split between the cell lines, Tarshish said.”

[...]

“Because chimerism is hard to diagnose, it's probably more common than we think, Tarshish said, although overall, it's still probably pretty rare.

Some cases of human chimerism have been reported before. For example, in 2002, a woman named Karen Keegan needed a kidney transplant, and doctors were puzzled when tests of possible family donors showed that she could not be the mother of two of her three sons, according to a report of the case. The mystery was solved when doctors discovered that Keegan was a chimera — the set of DNA in her blood cells was different from that in the other tissues in her body.”
It was on that HLN show that I just linked a few pages back. Kelsei German confirms it in this GH interview starting at around 35:40.
Sheriff not saying it's the killer's fingerprints, just fingerprints...Kelsei says as much also.





 
It was on that HLN show that I just linked a few pages back. Kelsei German confirms it in this GH interview starting at around 35:40.
Sheriff not saying it's the killer's fingerprints, just fingerprints...Kelsei says as much also.






Wow. Thanks! I apparently missed watching this.

So, yes, like you said, fingerprints, and Kelsie says “at all crime scenes your going to have fingerprints, etc..”

So wait, yes this is true, But this is out in the woods. Who else’s fingerprints are you going to have and on what? Clothing...And it could be first responders, searchers, which I assume would be ruled out. Thinking out loud, so then if there were fingerprints they couldn’t rule out as someone as LE/searcher and it would be run against CODIS, which apparently means no match yet thus far. So thinking more about this, he’s, based on the above, possibly not in the system. As far as fingerprints go. Obviously.

Interesting.

—-

More:
“They have DNA, they can’t match it to anyone yet.”
-Kelsie 36:52

—-


So listening now to GH talk about Parabon. What will Kelsie say about this???

“I don’t know, just have to keep pushing...”

(Agreed)

But wow, so no comment on Parabon.

Thanks for posting this again @sunshineray I’ll double check it’s in media thread too. I think I remember posting it, but didn’t get a chance to watch it.
 
In a word or two, LE may have questioned summertime early who had what looked like a solid alibi, akin to the case of Maddie McCaan.

Then the alibi unravels and the case breaks on multiple planes.

In time, we might see multiple arrests go crimes occurring in tandem with this one.

JMO
 
So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.

What was the killers MOTIVE? IMO if we can work this out it will go a long way to help solve this.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?

Most people seem to think it was a random attack so why was BG there on that day? It does not seem to be a random area that you accidentally end up at. BG must work nearby or have some connection with the trails and bridge area.

Maybe he is a psycho and has always wanted to kill. Maybe he had planned murdering someone at this location for a while and waited and watched from nearby with his "kit". Maybe he had staked this place out on previous days/weeks etc.

My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years. Is it possible that this was a targeted attack and if the answer is yes then the next question is why?
I’ll bite, all jmo.

What was the killers MOTIVE?
- Sexual assault imo is most likely. However, who knows, maybe they knew something and had to be killed for it. I’d go with SA as most likely motive if I had to pick.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?
Both are possible imo, and I have always leaned towards random, with the girls being in the wrong place ar the wrong time, and if it had not been them it might have been someone else. If I had to pick, I would still go with the girls being random victims. But the latest developments as far as LE releasing the stuff about KAK, Shots, etc. have me questioning that. So, with the latest developments aside, I always thought of a predator planning an attack, on a random victim.

As for the latest stuff, I haven’t wrapped my head around it AT ALL, but I’ve always said from day 1 I suspected a perp capable of such an act possibly very likely has a connection to/interest in child 🤬🤬🤬🤬, jmo, or let me rephrase to use the presently correct term, CSAM.



Eta: re “My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years.”

What’s to say he hasn’t? I think it’s very possible has killed since then. He maybe has not been linked yet, or caught yet. (Assuming JBC, KK, or another POI don’t turn out to be specifically related.)



BG’s voice sounds older to me. That’s one thing I can’t shake.
 
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Something has never set right with me regarding the search. LE called it a night while volunteers kept on searching. Unless I'm mistaken the very next morning LE did not resume their search on the trail. Instead they went straight to where the bodies were found. Were they ever clear on who actually discovered the bodies? To me details like that matter. Please let me know if I've missed something.
 
Another thought, if they were shot, ballistics obviously hasn’t proved helpful to this point.

Eta: I meant IAFIS/not CODIS above, gah.
Reference/qmfr
Wow. Thanks! I apparently missed watching this.

So, yes, like you said, fingerprints, and Kelsie says “at all crime scenes your going to have fingerprints, etc..”

So wait, yes this is true, But this is out in the woods. Who else’s fingerprints are you going to have and on what? Clothing...And it could be first responders, searchers, which I assume would be ruled out. Thinking out loud, so then if there were fingerprints they couldn’t rule out as someone as LE/searcher and it would be run against IAFIS (correction), which apparently means no match yet thus far. So thinking more about this, he’s, based on the above, possibly not in the system. As far as fingerprints go. Obviously.

Interesting.

—-

More:
“They have DNA, they can’t match it to anyone yet.”
-Kelsie 36:52

—-


So listening now to GH talk about Parabon. What will Kelsie say about this???

“I don’t know, just have to keep pushing...”

(Agreed)

But wow, so no comment on Parabon.

Thanks for posting this again @sunshineray I’ll double check it’s in media thread too. I think I remember posting it, but didn’t get a chance to watch it.
 
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Maybe, a real crazy dude ended up sleeping in this area? He'd been sleeping under bridges for quite a while during his drug and domestic violence inquires or court dates. Working for a nearby property owner who needed help, cheap.

This guy must be a person who can fool people. It's when the people he's fooled speak up, this case will be solved. My thoughts tonight on theses two beautiful girls who didn't deserve nothing like this ever.
 
Something has never set right with me regarding the search. LE called it a night while volunteers kept on searching. Unless I'm mistaken the very next morning LE did not resume their search on the trail. Instead they went straight to where the bodies were found. Were they ever clear on who actually discovered the bodies? To me details like that matter. Please let me know if I've missed something.

Hello @Sgt. Pepper,

Wonderful to see you on Abby and Libby's thread!

The more people who are interested in their case and keeping the discussion going - the better!

During the search on Feb 14th, volunteers were the ones who discovered the bodies - as per the I.S.P. statement below:


http://local.nixle.com/alert/5854975/

Indiana State Police-Peru District 16-Peru, IN
Sunday February 19th, 2017 :: 01:14 p.m. EST

"Carroll County- At approximately 12:15 p.m. on February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail J. Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn German, 14, both from Delphi, IN, were found in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, east of Delphi, IN, in Carroll County. The teens had been reported missing the previous day by family members. Their bodies were discovered by volunteers who were helping in an organized search for the girls. Law enforcement is investigating the case as a double homicide.

Since Wednesday February 15th, law enforcement officers have distributed a photo of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a white male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, preliminary evidence has led investigators to believe the person, in the distributed photo, is suspected of having participated in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

Citizens can provide information about this case by calling the Delphi Murder Tip Line at 844-459-5786. Information can be reported anonymously."



 
So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.

What was the killers MOTIVE? IMO if we can work this out it will go a long way to help solve this.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?

Most people seem to think it was a random attack so why was BG there on that day? It does not seem to be a random area that you accidentally end up at. BG must work nearby or have some connection with the trails and bridge area.

Maybe he is a psycho and has always wanted to kill. Maybe he had planned murdering someone at this location for a while and waited and watched from nearby with his "kit". Maybe he had staked this place out on previous days/weeks etc.

My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years. Is it possible that this was a targeted attack and if the answer is yes then the next question is why?

I would like to give my opinion on some of your questions.

Motive? In my opinion- it was Homicidal Ideation.

Targeted or Random? I used to lean toward random, but ...with KK in the picture, I am not at all ruling out planned.

Why was he there that day? The same answer as motive.

Why was it targeted?

Because he knew he was intimidating to young and vulnerable people.

These are all just theories.

AMOO MOO JMO
 
BBM:
I would like to give my opinion on some of your questions.

Motive? In my opinion- it was Homicidal Ideation.

Targeted or Random? I used to lean toward random, but ...with KK in the picture, I am not at all ruling out planned.

Why was he there that day? The same answer as motive.

Why was it targeted?

Because he knew he was intimidating to young and vulnerable people.

These are all just theories.

AMOO MOO JMO

“Homicidal ideation, also known as homicidal thoughts, refers to thinking about, considering, or. planning a homicide. Homicidal ideation accounts for an estimated 10-17% of patient presentations to. psychiatric facilities in the United States.3.May 1, 2019”
MHS Home | Health.mil › Suici...
Suicidal and Homicidal Ideation; Symptom - Health.mil
 
Dear @Sgt. Pepper,

I thought of something else that you may find of interest - it's full of information concerning the case. I go back to this map to look over information quite often.

One of our wonderful members, @skibaboo, created an interactive map which I've found to be extremely helpful.

@skibaboo included news articles, maps of the area - there are also videos posted on the map from other people who videotaped the walk across the bridge and the area.

Here it is and I think you will find it extremely informative!

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps
 
So what’s the “twist”? That has been top of my mind recently.

ETA: I also don’t think “The Shack” was brought up randomly. I think it was deliberate. Was there communication with LE and/or did BG leave a sign or something.

Minimal or touch DNA. The DNA was washed off in the water, partial DNA. They might have a suspect but can't prove it without his alibi being shot down or his DNA? my thoughts only.
 
... When the transplant is from allogenic (not own) stored cord blood, do they always tell the "owner" of the cord about it and get a consent? Otherwise, this is where I see a potential problem, including criminology one.
At Duke University Medical Center, cord blood is banked only after an Informed Consent Process, overseen by an independent board of physicians, scientists, and people from the community, with explicit consent from the responsible adult for the later use of the donated stem cells. No consent applies to the donor after the initial banking--though a donor can revoke consent for his/her child's cord blood to be used, at any time. I believe Yemelyan explained recently why the HLA typing done for stem-cell transplants isn't the same as the identification protocols used by lawn forcement. Interesting article:
Optimization of informed consent for umbilical cord blood banking - PubMed
 
Thanks for your response!! No worries about cold water here!! Like I said, it was just something that popped in my head from one of those old shows, Forensic Files, or FBI Files, or Cold Case Files, or New Detectives, oh I bet it was from New Detectives...

So, in summary and layman’s terms, the nonsecretor thing was in the past but now modern DNA technology can detect/work around this?

Yes, that's correct. Before it was known that DNA could be amplified, sequenced, and used for identification, technicians used blood type antigens as a rudimentary way to rule suspects in or out. So, for example, if there was a crime scene where the victim is type O but there is semen present that is expressing type A antigens, then LE can say "we are looking for an offender with type A blood." If you came up with a suspect but he's also type O, he's not the one. Non-secretors throw a wrench in this scenario because their other body fluids don't express these blood group antigens (which are really just chains of sugar molecules). So having a semen sample from a non-secretor, back in those days, gave you zero information that you could use to rule suspects in or out.

Nowadays there is DNA to provide a much more exact means of identification. If DNA is present, it's there regardless of secretor status.
 
Something has never set right with me regarding the search. LE called it a night while volunteers kept on searching. Unless I'm mistaken the very next morning LE did not resume their search on the trail. Instead they went straight to where the bodies were found. Were they ever clear on who actually discovered the bodies? To me details like that matter. Please let me know if I've missed something.

LE did resume the search on the trails. The searchers did not go straight to the where the girls were found. There were many groups of searchers; a smaller number were at the trailhead and the bridge. The groups near the bridge were small because LE were more certain that was where the girls disappeared and the likelihood of them not being alive was increasing - therefore you wouldn't want hundreds of people wandering around, you would want it more controlled.

This website has a good timeline as well as sources that breakdown every piece of information: https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline
 
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