Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #144

[Kell1]

Historically, Lucky Luciano was a pimp, he’d seduce girls and then send them to brothels to work. He was very much interested in women, too. I think pimps may have high sexual appetites, just not be able to love. They are interested in “fresh meat”, I’d say. But they always know what is moveable, what sells. KAK is the new type, that of a “digital pimp”. But I wonder if someone with homicidal urges asked about “dead kids”. Mind you, the person might not be a pedophile per se, merely, a killer.

i’m referring to the suspect in custody not the killer per se we can’t know what we’re dealing with because that information has not been released

and in comparing Charles Luciano to this suspect is really comparing apples to oranges.

Child isn’t usually traded for money it’s usually traded between pedophiles for their own specific sexual interests

Because of the nature of it and the high likelihood of being apprehended commercially produced child isnt as prevalent or as lucrative as legal in the US, its usually produced by the offenders themselves and shared covertly in groups, mostly on line now.

And also stranger things have happened it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the girls were either followed into the park by somebody or came across their killer by sheer chance, again we can’t know because law-enforcement has not released anything pertaining to the nature of their deaths

however the previous contact with up into the day of their death with a certain individual who agreed to meet them at the exact location where it occurred is an extremely strong coincidence and definitely needs to be fettered out completely

it is also possible that what we glean from the transcripts is also true, that they believe this individual may have been involved but not up to the point of murder in which someone else committed the actual murders , but he is aware.

 

[AC4RD]

... is a socially inept individual with weak social connections, usually very few if any friends would usually be described as "odd" by those around him.

Some may refer to them as "social marginals", they often struggle with employment, they tend to work in blue collar unskilled jobs, and find work where they can, they may or may not be in a relationship ...

They often live with parents, or friends, they often move around often, usually due to their deviant nature and discovery of their crimes .

His hobbies will usually be child oriented, usually something in their preferred victim age range, in this day and age it could be anything to do online. or gaming etc..
.

Once again, I'm grateful for a learning opportunity--thank you! You're quite right; this sounds just like our Pillsbury Doughboy of a suspect, just like everything we've learned about him. Whether his personality defects are a result of his pathological paraphilia, or if the paraphilia is a result of his personality defects, is a potentially interesting question. But either way, he's both a sad character, and a danger to the wellbeing of the children who are abused. Thanks again for the "kell1-ipideia" entry!

 

[minneolo]

Well no, A Pornographer is someone who creates legal pornographic content, a Pedophile is

1) Someone with an enduring pervasive sexual desire for under age victims (there are subcategories)

2) Collects child

This guy checks both boxes, he even alludes several times in that interview to his "Problem" , as most do when they get caught , all the sudden they "have a problem" and "need help", but had they not been apprehended, they wouldve continued for as long as they could .

RSBM. Thank you for this informative post. I appreciate it.

One thing to add - lots of folks in LE and elsewhere are starting to replace the “child ” term with “child sexual abuse materials” (CSAM) since of course actors consent to the content they create while children clearly do not.

 

[IceIce9]

IDK,If the suspect had been young or catfished the girls,then why didn't he take their cell phones?So they couldn't call 911,so the phones wouldn't ring while he was mid-crime giving up their location to other park visitors(tossing them into the creek would have achieved this the quickest and maybe destroyed fingerprint evidence),to erase evidence of a planned meet up and other digital content.One could argue that L did such a fine and discrete job of filming that he had no idea he was being filmed and it was in his best interest to leave them(if he even knew they were).If the phones were undisturbed when the police found them than that to me would suggest that this was random and I believe it was. Statistics say that on a national level we see the most suicides around Valentines day and some people tend to feel negative/depressed,which could have been a factor in this case.Like previously suggested in this thread I believe he's a motorcyclist,I think he rode his bike out there to feel better,maybe do some bird watching,something therapeutic.I think those two 14 yr old girls did what any 14 yr old would've have done whether it's you or me and that's to find the best rock to drop from the bridge into the creek.Of course they didn't see him down there.He was cussing and yelling and I bet they just started walking away(A couldn't run the bridge,L doesn't leave her friend),he finally catches up with them and this is where the compliance factors in,they probably complied because they thought they were in trouble.I also believe this is why he focused on L because out of the two L seems most likely to drop a rock as she has been out there the most.That's my projection of it but they're keeping the lid pretty tight on the info.

Regarding the motorcycle: a motorcycle in Delphi Indiana in February would be very rare and would have attracted attention. JMO but I think someone would have taken note if they saw or heard a motorcycle.

 

[Marzipan]

Regarding the motorcycle: a motorcycle in Delphi Indiana in February would be very rare and would have attracted attention. JMO but I think someone would have taken note if they saw or heard a motorcycle.

Agree it should be known if motorcycles were around there that day. Anecdotal, but a person in Indiana I suspected early on had posted about a long motorcycle ride around that time frame, maybe because the spring-like weather beckoned. Not sure it was that rare.

 

[Kell1]

Once again, I'm grateful for a learning opportunity--thank you! You're quite right; this sounds just like our Pillsbury Doughboy of a suspect, just like everything we've learned about him. Whether his personality defects are a result of his pathological paraphilia, or if the paraphilia is a result of his personality defects, is a potentially interesting question. But either way, he's both a sad character, and a danger to the wellbeing of the children who are abused. Thanks again for the "kell1-ipideia" entry!

Very Welcome

 

[Skibunny]

Agree it should be known if motorcycles were around there that day. Anecdotal, but a person in Indiana I suspected early on had posted about a long motorcycle ride around that time frame, maybe because the spring-like weather beckoned. Not sure it was that rare.

Just wondering where JAK would have kept his motorcycle in the winter. No garage at his house on Canal Street. Also wondering where he worked on his old cars, because I don't even see a driveway there at his house. Did he go to his parents house to work on cars? Did he have to get to his parents house on 2/13 to retrieve his motorcycle if he used it that day?

 

[Kell1]

RSBM. Thank you for this informative post. I appreciate it.

One thing to add - lots of folks in LE and elsewhere are starting to replace the “child ” term with “child sexual abuse materials” (CSAM) since of course actors consent to the content they create while children clearly do not.

Youre very welcome ,

as for the new terms , George Carlin did this bit years ago

“There’s a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting person’s nervous system has been stressed to its absolute peak and maximum, can’t take any more input. The nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shellshock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables: shellshock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago.”

“Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along, and the very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shellshock! Battle fatigue.”

“…Korea, 1950. Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car.”


“…the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I’ll bet you if we’d have still been calling it shellshock, some of those Vietnam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I’ll betcha that. I’ll betcha that.”

I personally refuse to detract from what it is, by burying someones pain under "nice " words. The legal industry can deal with sharing the term .

My duty is to the victims

 

[Crimemumuv8]

Yes and in regards to KAK, this where I lose the alignment of the storyline to KAK being a possible suspect. He was obviously getting sexual gratification from catfishing and impersonating himself as a wealthy, good looking hot young guy. In his dreams he thrived on having online relationships with young girls as an ego booster, I’d presume.

So if he planned to meet up with anyone in person, no way would he pass himself off as anything but an overweight dorky unappealing man and the gig would be up. We know of no connection he had to the Delphi trails or bridge so even if he intended to experiment with murder, even though nothing we know of gives basis to that, how would he have known in advance that location would give him the opportunity as opposed to getting busted?

The only way I could imagine it happening is if KAK posed as a driver who said he’d take the girls somewhere else to meet with anthony_shots and they adamantly balked and ran, causing him to panic and react with anger. But if he didn’t drive, how would he have gotten to Delphi? It requires lots of filling in the blanks to create a remotely possible plausible theory involving KAK, similar to everyone who’s been suspected of being a possible suspect, none have been a perfect fit. JMO

I agree with what you are saying. IMO...I think KAK involvement is not the fact that he is actually BG but that he was involved in setting up meetings for other predators in his circle. I feel like the information LE is going for is either the name of who KAK knows to have used his account or who he gave the meeting information to on that day. I think he passed information to BG and he knows way more than he is telling. This is why he can't pass a poloygraph and is worried about certain evidence. I think he knows BG can be linked in some way back to him. Family, friend, acquaintance of his through photo sharing etc. Maybe LE thinks he can provide the one missing piece they have mentioned so many times. Also if BG were KAK or TK would the community be shocked? LE seems to feel like everyone will be shocked when the arrest is finally made. Thoughts??

 

[shotgun09]

Youre very welcome ,

as for the new terms , George Carlin did this bit years ago

“There’s a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting person’s nervous system has been stressed to its absolute peak and maximum, can’t take any more input. The nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shellshock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables: shellshock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago.”

“Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along, and the very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shellshock! Battle fatigue.”

“…Korea, 1950. Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car.”


“…the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I’ll bet you if we’d have still been calling it shellshock, some of those Vietnam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I’ll betcha that. I’ll betcha that.”

I personally refuse to detract from what it is, by burying someones pain under "nice " words. The legal industry can deal with sharing the term .

My duty is to the victims

Thanks for this!
I miss George Carlin. He was a wise wise man. Made me think...

 

[Alethea]

Youre very welcome ,

as for the new terms , George Carlin did this bit years ago

“There’s a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting person’s nervous system has been stressed to its absolute peak and maximum, can’t take any more input. The nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shellshock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables: shellshock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago.”

“Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along, and the very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shellshock! Battle fatigue.”

“…Korea, 1950. Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car.”


“…the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I’ll bet you if we’d have still been calling it shellshock, some of those Vietnam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I’ll betcha that. I’ll betcha that.”

I personally refuse to detract from what it is, by burying someones pain under "nice " words. The legal industry can deal with sharing the term .

My duty is to the victims

People have started referring to it as Child Sex Abuse Material for the victims. These images depict the brutal and violent rape of children. Calling it "" detracts from what it is - this is not a staged movie but rather the abuse of children. That's why LE and even the defense bar all use the term CSAM now. It's not some woke nice legal word, it's a more accurate description.

The point of changing the terms was to really stress to the public that these are not victimless crimes. It's not , it's the illegal rape of a child. By viewing or sharing those images, pedophiles are revictimizing real rape and abuse victims.

 

[TL4S]

Delphi case gets national attention as Libby's cousin races in Bristol Dirt Races

 

[Skigirl]

IDK,If the suspect had been young or catfished the girls,then why didn't he take their cell phones?So they couldn't call 911,so the phones wouldn't ring while he was mid-crime giving up their location to other park visitors(tossing them into the creek would have achieved this the quickest and maybe destroyed fingerprint evidence),to erase evidence of a planned meet up and other digital content.One could argue that L did such a fine and discrete job of filming that he had no idea he was being filmed and it was in his best interest to leave them(if he even knew they were).If the phones were undisturbed when the police found them than that to me would suggest that this was random and I believe it was. Statistics say that on a national level we see the most suicides around Valentines day and some people tend to feel negative/depressed,which could have been a factor in this case.Like previously suggested in this thread I believe he's a motorcyclist,I think he rode his bike out there to feel better,maybe do some bird watching,something therapeutic.I think those two 14 yr old girls did what any 14 yr old would've have done whether it's you or me and that's to find the best rock to drop from the bridge into the creek.Of course they didn't see him down there.He was cussing and yelling and I bet they just started walking away(A couldn't run the bridge,L doesn't leave her friend),he finally catches up with them and this is where the compliance factors in,they probably complied because they thought they were in trouble.I also believe this is why he focused on L because out of the two L seems most likely to drop a rock as she has been out there the most.That's my projection of it but they're keeping the lid pretty tight on the info.

But given that he was in contact with them, I think the girls were there for a reason. I think he lured them there. I think he wasn't who they were expecting, or they didn't even connect him to the person they were supposed to meet, but he gave them the creeps, which is why she started taking video.

 

[crussell821]

Youre very welcome ,

as for the new terms , George Carlin did this bit years ago

“There’s a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting person’s nervous system has been stressed to its absolute peak and maximum, can’t take any more input. The nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shellshock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables: shellshock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago.”

“Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along, and the very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shellshock! Battle fatigue.”

“…Korea, 1950. Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car.”


“…the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I’ll bet you if we’d have still been calling it shellshock, some of those Vietnam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I’ll betcha that. I’ll betcha that.”

I personally refuse to detract from what it is, by burying someones pain under "nice " words. The legal industry can deal with sharing the term .

My duty is to the victims

is consensual. The sexual abuse of children cannot, ever, be consensual. The terms simply are not interchangeable.
And for what it’s worth, ‘shellshock’ wasn’t appropriately treated when it was called that, either.
MOO

 

[IceIce9]

People have started referring to it as Child Sex Abuse Material for the victims. These images depict the brutal and violent rape of children. Calling it "" detracts from what it is - this is not a staged movie but rather the abuse of children. That's why LE and even the defense bar all use the term CSAM now. It's not some woke nice legal word, it's a more accurate description.

The point of changing the terms was to really stress to the public that these are not victimless crimes. It's not , it's the illegal rape of a child. By viewing or sharing those images, pedophiles are revictimizing real rape and abuse victims.

I always disliked hearing people call it “kiddie ”. Almost like a cutesy name for a horrific crime.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Regarding the motorcycle: a motorcycle in Delphi Indiana in February would be very rare and would have attracted attention. JMO but I think someone would have taken note if they saw or heard a motorcycle.

Perhaps but highway 25 wraps around Delphi providing access from the south(driveway/rd to house),north(cemetary),and west(entrance)to monon high bridge.Checking the weather history for feb 2017 in Delphi,the 12th was sunny hi 50,13th sunny hi 45,and 14th sunny hi 50,I think its plausible.Sunny 45 degrees that far north in Feb is a warm day,probably why the girls went out there because they wanted to enjoy the sunny and warm day too.

 

[Kell1]

is consensual. The sexual abuse of children cannot, ever, be consensual. The terms simply are not interchangeable.
And for what it’s worth, ‘shellshock’ wasn’t appropriately treated when it was called that, either.
MOO

Then call it what it is, “rape”, never understood the differentiation when an individual forces a child into sex but we call it something different when its an adult

 

[Kell1]

People have started referring to it as Child Sex Abuse Material for the victims. These images depict the brutal and violent rape of children. Calling it "" detracts from what it is - this is not a staged movie but rather the abuse of children. That's why LE and even the defense bar all use the term CSAM now. It's not some woke nice legal word, it's a more accurate description.

The point of changing the terms was to really stress to the public that these are not victimless crimes. It's not , it's the illegal rape of a child. By viewing or sharing those images, pedophiles are revictimizing real rape and abuse victims.

Im awar, im saying it dulls , at least in my opinion, the trauma of the victim

I say call it what it is

Child rape

 

[Trocroc9]

I agree with what you are saying. IMO...I think KAK involvement is not the fact that he is actually BG but that he was involved in setting up meetings for other predators in his circle. I feel like the information LE is going for is either the name of who KAK knows to have used his account or who he gave the meeting information to on that day. I think he passed information to BG and he knows way more than he is telling. This is why he can't pass a poloygraph and is worried about certain evidence. I think he knows BG can be linked in some way back to him. Family, friend, acquaintance of his through photo sharing etc. Maybe LE thinks he can provide the one missing piece they have mentioned so many times. Also if BG were KAK or TK would the community be shocked? LE seems to feel like everyone will be shocked when the arrest is finally made. Thoughts??

I agree with your assessment that KAK or his father may have been responsible for setting BG up with meetings. IMO - At least that’s how it seems from LE’s interview of KAK.

Interestingly enough one of the very early on POI’s discussed has an interesting connection in that he also worked at the Chrysler plant with KAK’s father. He was also a violent sexual offender of attempted rape of an 11 year old. He pretended he was a police officer to lure her. He is from Kokomo ~20 minutes away. I personally would be shocked and enraged if it was this type of POI because he should never have been let out of prison in the first place to commit an even more heinous crime. Just one more possible theory in this very confusing case. All just my opinion.

Duvall v. State

Indiana Offender Database Search

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

But given that he was in contact with them, I think the girls were there for a reason. I think he lured them there. I think he wasn't who they were expecting, or they didn't even connect him to the person they were supposed to meet, but he gave them the creeps, which is why she started taking video.

I'm confident all theories regarding this case are subjective given the lack of information released by LE.