Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[taylorss]

…. The fact that anthony_shots account communicated with Libby the day she died AND anthony_shots account admitted to planning a meet with Libby the day she was murdered ….
AJMO

Sorry if already covered… is there any solid evidence that a_s said he’d planned to meet Libby that day??

LE confronted KAK with this in the interview transcripts & he totally denied it …. I’ve seen it discussed all over as if it’s firmly established, but AFAIK haven’t seen a source for it other than that reference in the interrogation! Of course LE can say whatever they want in there, true or not, to try to get info from him. So just wondering if this is confirmed anywhere beyond that reference? Thanks!

 

[IQuestion]

People can say what they want, but whatever he did, whatever he lied about, whomever he sent photos to....two young girls were killed and he has been sitting in jail for almost 2 years! That's a fact. I have printed, read, reread, indexed, highlighted and became absolutely disgusted with every word coming out of KAK's mouth. KAK did indeed admit he was communicating with LG and saw her pic at sleep over.. But, KAK wants to always make the distinction, "It was not me, it was A_S communicating with LG." At 8am, the day the girls were killed, Pg 137 two separate devices log into the A_S Snp account from his home. That's a fact.
Nor do I have an issue believing the condition of the Samsung Galaxy S on pg 138.
21 A: It was white, I'm not sure, I don't know. It had like a cracked screen real bad.
22 'Cause I sat on it.
Why would someone continue to use a phone with a badly cracked screen if they had another working phone?
So if the first log in was at 8am, on Monday, and perp now aware the girls (and other students) would not be in school, because they no doubt shared that info. Kind of along the lines, "No school today, what are you going to do?" Wouldn't that give the perp more than 4 hours to devise his plan, pack his "gear" and be at the MHB by 12PM? Any idea of who the other person might be logging into A_S in that area?
***Mr. IQ (hubby) is an awfully nice guy, but sometimes I make plans long in advance and but get him to think it was his idea all along. (sometimes ya' just gotta do it)

 

[AC4RD]

I keep going back to the original press conference in 2017. .... I have always questioned why not release Guys, in the beginning with down the hill. When they did, it is in tandem as if said together. Personally, I don’t think it is. If not why put it together. If it was then why not release it all together in the beginning. I have often wondered if guys came from another source and maybe someone they suspect.

(snipped for focus) "Guys" definitely raises some questions. My own opinion is that BG said "Go down the hill" and the "go" is omitted from the later audio released by LE. My case was this:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

Hate these posts, but does anyone have a link to LE saying they could see a look of terror on one of the girls faces? Ive been here from the beginning, skipped a few threads, but I dont remember hearing that before. Thanks. I wondered the same. It very much reminds me of an urban myth...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Boxer]

BOXER ....Very possible. Do you have any thoughts on the "newest" identity/business he put on the phone he "said he found in the rental car in Vegas" (Ahem, bs, snicker) and made a title "Kline Photography?" I have counted 6 devices....did I miss any?
PS...this guy is shady, so shady...

Can’t say, I don’t know much about his “finding” of an unlocked phone.
Lost and found phones is a thing here.

 

[Peppery]

why did this case blow up so quickly? I know the initial FBI agent happened to be nearby on another case and clearly the Delphi Sheriff’s department needed help as there hadn’t been a murder investigation in years. But to have hundreds of investigators there within days or less…why? What made this murder different from other murders? Murders happen every day, in every town and city, to teenagers, and don’t get law enforcement attention like this. Could LE have tied it to csam from the very beginning? Were they already investigating csam maybe even prior to the murders? Or is there a connection to something else that made the big guns jump instantly?

 

[abams]

why did this case blow up so quickly? I know the initial FBI agent happened to be nearby on another case and clearly the Delphi Sheriff’s department needed help as there hadn’t been a murder investigation in years. But to have hundreds of investigators there within days or less…why? What made this murder different from other murders? Murders happen every day, in every town and city, to teenagers, and don’t get law enforcement attention like this. Could LE have tied it to csam from the very beginning? Were they already investigating csam maybe even prior to the murders? Or is there a connection to something else that made the big guns jump instantly?

IMO no, I don't think it was tied to CSAM at the beginning. I think it was simply the victims' ages and nature of the crime scene that made local LE ask for assistance immediately from federal and state investigators; it's a mandate of the FBI to provide this through field offices, you'll see them lend investigatory assistance to local/state agencies in child abductions but also violent crimes involving children (not federal) when called in.

I think this is a good and short interview from former prosecutor Robert Ives to bring back around, he talks about the early stages of the investigation:

 

[JnRyan]

why did this case blow up so quickly? I know the initial FBI agent happened to be nearby on another case and clearly the Delphi Sheriff’s department needed help as there hadn’t been a murder investigation in years. But to have hundreds of investigators there within days or less…why? What made this murder different from other murders? Murders happen every day, in every town and city, to teenagers, and don’t get law enforcement attention like this. Could LE have tied it to csam from the very beginning? Were they already investigating csam maybe even prior to the murders? Or is there a connection to something else that made the big guns jump instantly?

I still question this aspect. The Flora Fire nearby just a few months earlier didn't get this attention and manpower. Marina Boelter in Bloomingfield got press but no LE response like this. April Tinsley, age 8, didn't receive this level of attention. Lauren Spierer's case didn't have this level of manpower assigned to it. It's like some cases grab the attention of the media and off we go. And it is not just Indiana as just about every state has instances where there are different LE responses.

 

[TTF14]

I still question this aspect. The Flora Fire nearby just a few months earlier didn't get this attention and manpower. Marina Boelter in Bloomingfield got press but no LE response like this. April Tinsley, age 8, didn't receive this level of attention. Lauren Spierer's case didn't have this level of manpower assigned to it. It's like some cases grab the attention of the media and off we go. And it is not just Indiana as just about every state has instances where there are different LE responses.

It was the audio and video evidence, in my opinion.

 

[sunshineray]

Sorry if already covered… is there any solid evidence that a_s said he’d planned to meet Libby that day??

LE confronted KAK with this in the interview transcripts & he totally denied it …. I’ve seen it discussed all over as if it’s firmly established, but AFAIK haven’t seen a source for it other than that reference in the interrogation! Of course LE can say whatever they want in there, true or not, to try to get info from him. So just wondering if this is confirmed anywhere beyond that reference? Thanks!

I believe so since it was mentioned in the interrogation...my opinion...I believe it happened.

 

[Confusion]

I don't get around here nearly as often as I'd like, so I hope I'm not always sounding like I'm talking about a totally different case when I just post what I've been thinking rather than responding to all the posts that come before mine. Anyway...
I've been thinking about a_s, catfishing, etc., and I think I remember KAK saying at some point that he was going to meet up with Libby but she didn't show up. If he didn't say it, I'm going to go on the assumption that it's true just for this scenario.

I'm sure that a lot of people realize that in addition to older people pretending to be young, there are also very young people pretending to be older than they are. I've been wondering if LG may have been pretending to be a bit older than she was, and possibly pretending that pictures of her sister were actually her. If KAK, his father and/or another "a_s" persona had planned to meet a 16 year-old girl (who had no knowledge of the meeting) and instead found a 13 and 14 year-old pair of girls, it's really hard to say what his/their reaction might be. The girls, or just Libby if Abby wasn't involved, had just mentioned the possibility of going there, they may not have been expecting anyone to meet them there. It's possible that BG noticed a family resemblance called her by name. Having an older, and probably not very desirable, guy you've never seen before calling you by name would most likely freak out a young girl a bit (or even an old lady at times!)

Anyway, I've just been trying to find a way that some of what he's been saying might be true.

 

[Thelastleg]

I don't get around here nearly as often as I'd like, so I hope I'm not always sounding like I'm talking about a totally different case when I just post what I've been thinking rather than responding to all the posts that come before mine. Anyway...
I've been thinking about a_s, catfishing, etc., and I think I remember KAK saying at some point that he was going to meet up with Libby but she didn't show up. If he didn't say it, I'm going to go on the assumption that it's true just for this scenario.

I'm sure that a lot of people realize that in addition to older people pretending to be young, there are also very young people pretending to be older than they are. I've been wondering if LG may have been pretending to be a bit older than she was, and possibly pretending that pictures of her sister were actually her. If KAK, his father and/or another "a_s" persona had planned to meet a 16 year-old girl (who had no knowledge of the meeting) and instead found a 13 and 14 year-old pair of girls, it's really hard to say what his/their reaction might be. The girls, or just Libby if Abby wasn't involved, had just mentioned the possibility of going there, they may not have been expecting anyone to meet them there. It's possible that BG noticed a family resemblance called her by name. Having an older, and probably not very desirable, guy you've never seen before calling you by name would most likely freak out a young girl a bit (or even an old lady at times!)

Anyway, I've just been trying to find a way that some of what he's been saying might be true.

I cannot find the link at the moment, so I will IMO this. It was an interview with Kelsie, Libbys older sister. In the interview she said that on the night the girls went missing she contacted Libbys social media friends and anthony-shots accounts was one of them. He was unable to give her any information as to where Libby might be

 

[Schatz]

IMO no, I don't think it was tied to CSAM at the beginning. I think it was simply the victims' ages and nature of the crime scene that made local LE ask for assistance immediately from federal and state investigators; it's a mandate of the FBI to provide this through field offices, you'll see them lend investigatory assistance to local/state agencies in child abductions but also violent crimes involving children (not federal) when called in.

I think this is a good and short interview from former prosecutor Robert Ives to bring back around, he talks about the early stages of the investigation:

Thanks for bringing that forward. Great interview. He said that although he doesn’t know this to be the case, it seems like a serial killer. IMO that is why scores of outside LE - and huge FBI numbers he said - showed up so quickly. I am guessing when it happened the FBI wanted to compare to the Evansdale scene(s). Sounds like local LE thought it was someone local and with a motive that made sense in a familiar or local way and the FBI perhaps thought otherwise.

ETA: He says, “it appears to be a serial killer type of thing.” Around 5:20 mark. Quickly goes on to say he doesn’t KNOW that to be true. But …

 

[JnRyan]

IMO no, I don't think it was tied to CSAM at the beginning. I think it was simply the victims' ages and nature of the crime scene that made local LE ask for assistance immediately from federal and state investigators; it's a mandate of the FBI to provide this through field offices, you'll see them lend investigatory assistance to local/state agencies in child abductions but also violent crimes involving children (not federal) when called in.

I think this is a good and short interview from former prosecutor Robert Ives to bring back around, he talks about the early stages of the investigation:

I've heard this interview before, but it is interesting to hear it again. I was on an out of town assignment the week of 13 February and only followed bits and pieces. And besides there was another horrific crime in the area where I was working that I and the locals were following. So when I return on the 17th I dived into this and thought, 'rural area, limited entry and exit points [or so I thought at the time], photograph, MASSIVE LE response, yeah, this guy shouldn't make any St. Patrick's Day plans because he is going to be locked up before then.'

It's interesting to hear Ives say that seemed to be not only his perception, but that of those worked the case, that this case was going to be solved very soon. OK, it's fine for me to sit here and say that because I'm not investigating and I'm not a local who might have a suspicion. While I believe this perception of a quick resolution led to a high motivation I wonder if LE got over-confident. Add in the tremendous leadership and organization required to run a massive force of folks who likely have not worked together before and I believe that is a problem in itself. I've said over and over - I believe LE already has a tip or tips on this killer and possibly within the first 90 days.

 

[sunshineray]

IMO no, I don't think it was tied to CSAM at the beginning. I think it was simply the victims' ages and nature of the crime scene that made local LE ask for assistance immediately from federal and state investigators; it's a mandate of the FBI to provide this through field offices, you'll see them lend investigatory assistance to local/state agencies in child abductions but also violent crimes involving children (not federal) when called in.

I think this is a good and short interview from former prosecutor Robert Ives to bring back around, he talks about the early stages of the investigation:

Thank you for posting this, I'd not seen this before. It's certainly is an eye-opener to the thoughts of the prosecutor in the early days.

He was certain the man caught on audio and video by Libby was the killer.

He did NOT think the killer was local.

He thought the murders would most likely be solved by more murder occurring.

All that seems like the prosecutor, who would know all of the investigative work going on, didn't know about the biggest investigation into CSAM in Indiana's history was afoot? Was that the FBI in conjecture with ISP's doing, keeping the locals in the dark? Is that why Ives eventually left?

What is the date of this interview?

 

[JnRyan]

Thank you for posting this, I'd not seen this before. It's certainly is an eye-opener to the thoughts of the prosecutor in the early days.

He was certain the man caught on audio and video by Libby was the killer.

He did NOT think the killer was local.

He thought the murders would most likely be solved by more murder occurring.

All that seems like the prosecutor, who would know all of the investigative work going on, didn't know about the biggest investigation into CSAM in Indiana's history was afoot? Was that the FBI in conjecture with ISP's doing, keeping the locals in the dark? Is that why Ives eventually left?

What is the date of this interview?

The date below the video is 11 Feb 2021, but whether that is the approximate time of the interview or when it posted to YT I have no idea.

I didn't notice it before but someone signing in as 'Robert Ives' adds some clarification in a comment and also responds to someone else mentioning rails-to-trails. He states that he had never been on the trails before. In with some of the more recent comments.

 

[HistoryNut]

I've heard this interview before, but it is interesting to hear it again. I was on an out of town assignment the week of 13 February and only followed bits and pieces. And besides there was another horrific crime in the area where I was working that I and the locals were following. So when I return on the 17th I dived into this and thought, 'rural area, limited entry and exit points [or so I thought at the time], photograph, MASSIVE LE response, yeah, this guy shouldn't make any St. Patrick's Day plans because he is going to be locked up before then.'

It's interesting to hear Ives say that seemed to be not only his perception, but that of those worked the case, that this case was going to be solved very soon. OK, it's fine for me to sit here and say that because I'm not investigating and I'm not a local who might have a suspicion. While I believe this perception of a quick resolution led to a high motivation I wonder if LE got over-confident. Add in the tremendous leadership and organization required to run a massive force of folks who likely have not worked together before and I believe that is a problem in itself. I've said over and over - I believe LE already has a tip or tips on this killer and possibly within the first 90 days.

I agree with you that LE may had tips on the killer not long after the crime and may have even known it was tied to CSAM. I've mentioned this before, but I believe the Delphi Murders are a big part of an even larger uncover operation to catch the ringleaders.

 

[Peppery]

I still question this aspect. The Flora Fire nearby just a few months earlier didn't get this attention and manpower. Marina Boelter in Bloomingfield got press but no LE response like this. April Tinsley, age 8, didn't receive this level of attention. Lauren Spierer's case didn't have this level of manpower assigned to it. It's like some cases grab the attention of the media and off we go. And it is not just Indiana as just about every state has instances where there are different LE responses.

yes! and it wasn't media that drew LE's attention. they were there instantly and in swarms. why this case instead of the others, like you posted?

 

[FromGermany1]

Thanks for bringing that forward. Great interview. He said that although he doesn’t know this to be the case, it seems like a serial killer. IMO that is why scores of outside LE - and huge FBI numbers he said - showed up so quickly. I am guessing when it happened the FBI wanted to compare to the Evansdale scene(s). Sounds like local LE thought it was someone local and with a motive that made sense in a familiar or local way and the FBI perhaps thought otherwise.

ETA: He says, “it appears to be a serial killer type of thing.” Around 5:20 mark. Quickly goes on to say he doesn’t KNOW that to be true. But …

What if it is indeed a serial killer, first assumed from everywhere, but not Indiana of all states. But at the beginning of 2019, LE/FBI learned something new and now the killer was assumed to be a serial killer AND local (which doesn't mean Delphi).

 

[sunshineray]

What if it is indeed a serial killer, first assumed from everywhere, but not Indiana of all states. But at the beginning of 2019, LE/FBI learned something new and now the killer was assumed to be a serial killer AND local (which doesn't mean Delphi).

And, in my mind, there's always the thought that where there's one person on social media trying to lure young kids there are many. Sometimes they like to hook up with each other online and share. What's to say in Indiana, as in any state, there aren't individuals who like to meet in person and share their evil. It's possible the Delphi murders were sanctioned, were put in motion by others...possibly a group. Just some thoughts.

 

[Marzipan]

I agree with you that LE may had tips on the killer not long after the crime and may have even known it was tied to CSAM. I've mentioned this before, but I believe the Delphi Murders are a big part of an even larger uncover operation to catch the ringleaders.

I’m never so good at keeping track of case basics — have we ever heard a number as far as how many people/accounts downloaded images from the ashots Dropbox account? I remember in the Murder Sheet podcast there was a mentioned number of images (I think); I just don’t remember a number of people accessing them.
You say “catch the ringleaders” so I’m guessing you do not believe KAK is a ringleader. He may just be a small part of the biggest CSAM case in the state, but a piece that helps them with the whole thing.
Or, it’s not the biggest CSAM case at all and that statement in the interrogation was an exaggeration. That would mean there are other reasons it’s taking so long.