IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #38

[Yvettea]

MOO Here's the thing with being familiar with the property. I've lived rural when I was young and you don't really become familiar with 40 acres unless you've lived there, walked it, worked it and loved that property. When you've done that you will know the nuances of the land. Still the perp would only have needed familiarity with the area he used. Maybe not needed but it would have been very helpful and knowing the whole property would have been even better. Sorry for not responding to anything. My formatting window doesn't work.

 

[FreeRoad]

I do not believe for a second that this had anything to do with drugs.

If this was a "big drug deal" it wouldn't have gone down on a public trail. These things go down in abandoned buildings, in someone's home, or even in an abandoned parking lot. Nobody goes through the trouble of hikinh through the woods to do a drug deal, only to have it go down on a public trail, where anybody can pop up at any time.

Furthermore, I don't understand why anybody who was spotted dealing drugs would go through the trouble of marching the girls through the woods, possibly across a creek, just to execute them. If the offender was so worried about being caught, why not execute them on the bridge, then get away as quickly as possible?

Contrary to popular belief, drug dealers don't want to kill people. They want to sell drugs and make money, and may kill in the event there's a debt owed, or someone may be going to court to testify against them. I honestly don't think it makes too much sense to kill two kids, on a whim, because they saw you selling drugs....you just leave. To go from drug dealing to double murder in this way, makes no sense to me.

As far as tips go, we absolutely have no idea who's called in what, about whom. So it's not fair to assume BG hasn't been ratted out yet. As far as COD, we don't know. LE has not released this information yet, so we have no idea whether there was or wasn't a sexual component to this case. Even if there was, DNA is something that may not be readily available. There are "non-secreters" that exist in the population, and although a minority, they are out there.

In cases like this, the most simple explanations are usually the best. Either BG knew the girls, in some way, or he didn't, and they ran into a dangerous pervert out there in the woods that day. He has a predilection for young girls, and saw an opportunity and decided to act. Whether or not he's done it before is debatable..but what's not is the distinct possibility that he'll do it again.

Sorry for rambling, but the drug thing makes no sense. Of course, there has been no evidence released to support my theory either, so I can be 100% off.

Everything above is MOO.

I can agree to this line of thinking in parts of my mind, but then, the more I learn about the effects of Meth use, and the "symptoms" present in users of such, I don't know that "making sense" necessarily has to apply here. As a couple of earlier posters have pointed out, what rational Folk would think or do, does not necessarily transfer to what a criminally-insane or drug altered mind would act on.

I live in the hinterlands where some of this meth-evil is taking root, and we do find evidence of it in the woods, on the trails, on riverbanks and secluded trail-access-only beaches. We do not have abandoned buildings or overgrown parking lots here. I am almost hoping it's tied to this case, and that we have had our wake-up call to act, and reclaim our communities.

jmo, moo

WOW. When I started reading this thread from the posts made late last night until today I thought I was on the wrong thread.

If I gave everyone a 1 day TO who went off topic there might be 3 people left to post.

DO NOT DISCUSS METH OR DRUGS UNLESS YOU CAN LINK IT TO THE CASE.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

Thank you,
Tricia

My apologies if I have broken the Rules. I understood Tricia's post to refer to the conversations from last night that moved toward personal drug use experience and made no mention of the possibilities of this case.

With my post, I was trying to voice that I do not limit the possibilities I consider, because of geography or terrain. I was trying to give the example that criminal activity takes place in the rural area I live, which is completely lacking in "urban blight." In fact, the more remote and removed from a road, the more favorable it is to illicit activity because there is no chance that LE will be "patrolling" there.

By the same token, referring to the Delphi trail system as remote or isolated is all a matter of perspective. I have looked at the street maps, the topo maps, and chopper/drone footage, and to me it looks quite developed and even "crowded," compared to places I've lived. And as for walking in the woods at night...I regularly (every night) walk trails I am familiar with, in meadows and young forest. No street or trail lights; it's "bright" to me under a full moon or with reflected light from snow, and always do-able, even with just starlight under a new moon.

Again, my apologies if I have crossed lines here. I was trying to present my opinion about what could or couldn't be logically considered in this case, and bring a different perspective/point of view to the discussion. I will flag this post myself, and ask the Mods to review.

These are my thoughts and opinions - :dunno:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Reading your question on is it clothing on the branch in the creek... it looks like plastic to me (like a wal mart/dept store bag or a white kitchen trash bag.

I think it's some other thing than a bag or handle of bag - but what might it be?? Also I think the white thing on his left leg may have to do with the white thing below his chin. Though I wonder why it's seen on one pic of BG and not seen on the other ...

I can't recognize BG's shoes very well but I think they are too stylish to fit with his average outfit.

 

[Tokalu]

I've come to the conclusion IMHO that this crime was committed by an organized offender for the following reasons ...

- Controlled conversation (evidence: audio clip. A direct order, offender seems calm and totally in control, he has a plan... demanding submissiveness - "get/go down the hill")
- The crime scene reflects control. No scattered evidence, at least that I have heard
- Weapon most likely absent at the scene. Gun visible in photo of unsub
- Victims bodies found in another location, transported.
- Killer most likely has access to a vehicle

I believe the killer is either a power/control killer or hedonistic thrill killer.

There are some disorganized elements, I believe. However I think overall this was a very organized crime.

Thoughts?

 

[layer]

IMO if it is a serial killer its usually very unheard of them just taking any random victim.

I can name dozens of serial killers that exclusively went after random victims. I can't think of one, off the top of my head that didn't.

 

[ReggieHammond]

My apologies if I have broken the Rules. I understood Tricia's post to refer to the conversations from last night that moved toward personal drug use experience and made no mention of the possibilities of this case.

With my post, I was trying to voice that I do not limit the possibilities I consider, because of geography or terrain. I was trying to give the example that criminal activity takes place in the rural area I live, which is completely lacking in "urban blight." In fact, the more remote and removed from a road, the more favorable it is to illicit activity because there is no chance that LE will be "patrolling" there.

By the same token, referring to the Delphi trail system as remote or isolated is all a matter of perspective. I have looked at the street maps, the topo maps, and chopper/drone footage, and to me it looks quite developed and even "crowded," compared to places I've lived. And as for walking in the woods at night...I regularly (every night) walk trails I am familiar with, in meadows and young forest. No street or trail lights; it's "bright" to me under a full moon or with reflected light from snow, and always do-able, even with just starlight under a new moon.

Again, my apologies if I have crossed lines here. I was trying to present my opinion about what could or couldn't be logically considered in this case, and bring a different perspective/point of view to the discussion. I will flag this post myself, and ask the Mods to review.

These are my thoughts and opinions - :dunno:

The parts of my post that were a direct reply to you were the parts dealing with evidence that we may or may not be aware of.

The whole drug rant that I went on, wasn't directed at you, FreeRoad. That angle has been tossed around quite a bit here by others. I've tried to see it, but just can't reconcile in my own mind that someone would do this solely because the girls saw them dealing a little dope.

I wasn't trying to be dismissive, that angle just has never added up to me. Like I said though, based on the little information we do have available, it could be the case. Who knows? My spidey sense could be way off.

 

[cloudajo]

I've watched it until I'm cross eyed many times lol I think it's just water hitting rocks where its shallow in places.

I swear I remember them going back, before we knew about BG and everything went crazy chaotic. I seem to remember thinking were they looking for the girls phones? A weapon? I swear I saw a search and rescue dinghy type boat on a trailer parked near the cemetery.

:scared:

Is this the picture you were thinking of? There is a sheriff's boat in the pic.

Investigators in Delphi intensified search of Monon high bridge crime scene where 2 bodies where found Tuesday divers prep to search creek

[video=twitter;831951499194466323]https://twitter.com/PharosJKK/status/831951499194466323[/video]

 

[ninij9]

I can name literally dozens of serial killers that exclusively went after random victims. I can't think of one, off the top of my head that didn't.

BTK, stalked his victims. That's all I got. I don't think stalking is exclusive to SK. I think alot of them pick victims of convenience. But BTK, Dennis Raider(shudder) he stalked them.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[pandorasbox]

I searched through and don't think this has been posted, but yesterday at a memorial event, Abby's mother spoke publicly for the first time. http://fox59.com/2017/03/25/abby-williams-mom-these-girls-were-the-most-precious-gifts-we-had/

 

[Tippy Lynn]

SBM & BBM

Indiana State Police release statement: We are providing a photograph of a subject who was on the Delphi Historic Trails on February 13, 2017 around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were walking. We are asking help from the public to help identify him so he can be contacted regarding what he might have seen. Also, if you were parked at High Bridge Trail Head on February 13, 2017 between 1:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. we would like to talk to you. (Ref)

Maybe even his own two feet. In my opinion.

I've read this article serval times and I didn't think much about this statement from LE until I read it today, Also, if you were parked at High Bridge Trail Head on February 13, 2017 between 1:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. we would like to talk to you. I'm wondering if someone told LE that they saw a car parked there or in the area, but they didn't take a close look and couldn't give a make/model.

 

[expatCanada]

AND it's coming from a Facebook post. Anybody can say anything on FB. IMO

I could only find a reference to it: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-17&p=13193159#post13193159

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I agree. Despite all the random theorizing, I've assumed, based on what little we know, coupled with the fact that a)no one would likely risk returning to an area near an abduction to discard the bodies, and b)most perps seem to want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP, that the crime was likely initiated and over with between the time BG was filmed and ~2:45pm. Even though this is a relatively secluded area, it would seem that a predator would want to get the job down and get away before anyone might see/hear a disturbance. That is why this has never seemed like anything more than a double homicide to me. Obviously, I may be wrong, but if it was a sexually motivated crime, it would seem logical that the perpetrator would want a more secluded area, and would likely move them. If this had been the case, again, I don't believe they would have been returned to the general vicinity of where they taken. The more I think about this crime, the more strange it seems. I'm still surprised that the FBI was involved almost immediately. Although not uncommon for them to be involved in these kind of cases, the fact that they came in as quickly as they did raises my suspicion as to the possibility of this being something unusual, as far as these kinds of crimes go.

What time were the girls due to be picked up? ISTR it was 3 pm. Wasn't there a gap in time between pickup, family realizes they're late and begins to search, and then the police are called or arrive at 5:30? I think the girls were probably deceased at 3:30 if that's correct. RL said a neighbor came by at 6:30 to request permission to search his land.

 

[No it's not]

Made a new cleaned-up version of the animated gif:

______________

The first original frame (this happened first):

The second original frame (this happened next):

These 2 images may play a trick on the viewer, when looking at which image came first. Here is why, IMO:

When LE published the two images of the POI/BG, they did not identify the sequential relationship. MSM then went ahead and even reversed the sequence and vice versa.

The frames were not rotated, aligned and cropped to match to begin with by LE. But why? Here is an illustration, which frame was first and why. Look at the reference lines and you will understand:

It is very possible, that the rotation between the original frames - these 2 images being app. .5 seconds apart IMO - , is the result of Libby ( if she took the video herself) shaking her hand or generally moving as opposed to being stationary while taking the video! Otherwise it would make little to no sense to me, that LE would have released it that way.

Yes, they could have cropped it according to my reference-line illustration above. But I strongly believe, there is movement and there may be even more and faster movement on the remaining frames (if applicable), as the POI /BG was approaching.

Movement would additionally support the idea, that Libby was possibly aware of the situation. Just a thought.

All IMO

-Nin

 

[KlaraBell]

By the same token, referring to the Delphi trail system as remote or isolated is all a matter of perspective. I have looked at the street maps, the topo maps, and chopper/drone footage, and to me it looks quite developed and even "crowded," compared to places I've lived. And as for walking in the woods at night...I regularly (every night) walk trails I am familiar with, in meadows and young forest. No street or trail lights; it's "bright" to me under a full moon or with reflected light from snow, and always do-able, even with just starlight under a new moon.

I think this is a great point to keep in mind. The fantastic thing about the Websleuths Community is that it's incredibly far reaching so there are many helpful opionions and experiences expressed. But, by the same token, people's personal understanding is sometimes limited by their own world (myself certainly included). For example, having followed this case closely from the beginning and comparing it to my own community, I also don't consider the area of this trail in Delphi 'isolated.' But all the differing ideas and thoughts are what will solve this. Keeping an open mind is key in navigating any complex puzzle.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I can name dozens of serial killers that exclusively went after random victims. I can't think of one, off the top of my head that didn't.

Intersting info regarding serial killers.....

https://serialkillersvictimschoosing.wikispaces.com/

Children are easy targets for serial killers. They are small and easily portable. They do what they are told to do by grown-ups. And, they are easy to get them to go with them somewhere else. “Serial killers who lack the social skills or physical strength to handle an adult will often resort to children.”

Teenage girls and young women are also great targets for serial killers. They don’t have a lot of confidence and they usually don’t know how to defend themselves. “Elderly women are one of the exceptions chosen by youthful offenders who lack the experience and transportation.” These women are usually frail and have cash lying about.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

Agree 100% with this, but a few quick google searches will show that cartels are not beyond targeting children of people of who have informed on them, there have been busts in the general area involving cartels transporting meth from Mexico and CA, cartels often employ "professionals" for such jobs, at least one person close to this case has more than one meth-related arrest and/or conviction, and this is an angle at least worth considering, in light of the number of arrests within a 50-mile radius of Delphi for meth dealing, production, trafficking, etc. Someone is obviously informing for those cases to be made, and we consider that a few, or maybe even one, person controlling the flow in an area has lost what might be millions of dollars worth of product due to these busts, paying associates for a brutal and extremely terrifying act of retribution is not out of the question. I hope my theory is wrong, but if it's not, then I hope it ties into at least one other unsolved case, as well. Time will tell, hopefully.

As we were instructed not to discuss this, all I will say is, I did a little research this a.m. and could not find one instance in which a teen, let alone two were murdered because someone thought they were filming said murderer. (Alluded to earlier in another post). I could be lacking in search skills so anyone who finds a link, please post.

 

[EllieBee]

I wanted to Thank You for your wonderful timeline posts earlier! :loveyou:

Just speculating that she may have there a bit later even though she says shortly after the girls posted the photo. She also mentions seeing another couple once she got on the bridge. I've always wondered if any of them were talking/laughing when they were on the bridge, their voices carried, and BG heard them and got out of there quickly.

 

[Bemused]

I agree. Despite all the random theorizing, I've assumed, based on what little we know, coupled with the fact that a)no one would likely risk returning to an area near an abduction to discard the bodies, and b)most perps seem to want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP, that the crime was likely initiated and over with between the time BG was filmed and ~2:45pm. Even though this is a relatively secluded area, it would seem that a predator would want to get the job down and get away before anyone might see/hear a disturbance. That is why this has never seemed like anything more than a double homicide to me. Obviously, I may be wrong, but if it was a sexually motivated crime, it would seem logical that the perpetrator would want a more secluded area, and would likely move them. If this had been the case, again, I don't believe they would have been returned to the general vicinity of where they taken. The more I think about this crime, the more strange it seems. I'm still surprised that the FBI was involved almost immediately. Although not uncommon for them to be involved in these kind of cases, the fact that they came in as quickly as they did raises my suspicion as to the possibility of this being something unusual, as far as these kinds of crimes go.

FBI may have been asked for their assistance rather than claiming lead due to circumstances. I believe ISP are lead as they're the ones answering questions along with the sheriff.

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

Made a new cleaned-up version of the animated gif:

______________

The first original frame (this happened first):

The second original frame (this happened next):

These 2 images may play a trick on the viewer, when looking at which image came first. Here is why, IMO:

When LE published the two images of the POI/BG, they did not identify the sequential relationship. MSM then went ahead and even reversed the sequence and vice versa.

The frames were not rotated, aligned and cropped to match to begin with by LE. But why? Here is an illustration, which frame was first and why. Look at the reference lines and you will understand:

It is very possible, that the rotation between the original frames - these 2 images being app. .5 seconds apart IMO - , is the result of Libby ( if she took the video herself) shaking her hand or generally moving as opposed to being stationary while taking the video! Otherwise it would make little to no sense to me, that LE would have released it that way.

Yes, they could have cropped it according to my reference-line illustration above. But I strongly believe, there is movement and there may be even more and faster movement on the remaining frames (if applicable), as the POI /BG was approaching.

Movement would additionally support the idea, that Libby was possibly aware of the situation. Just a thought.

All IMO

-Nin

Great work!!! Creeps me out seeing him in motion though . and as I study that I noticed it creates a weird Shadow on his left leg kind of pointy like a curly knife blade looking shape.. do you see it?? what's making that shadow on his upper thigh pant leg of his left leg (which will be on your right side of the screen) I hope someone else can see it and circle it and upload the photo because I'm not savy like that for getting pictures on websleuths

 

[Bemused]

That just made me think of BGs picture. I'm one of those that swear a plastic bag is poking out the top of his jacket.(as opposed to smoke, goggles, rope etc).

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

It's like the other photo in that many people see many different things.