IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #58

[liltexans]

O/T--I know I said it privately already, but CONGRATS, liltexans! They couldn't have made a better choice.

Thank you, that is very kind of you to say.

I'm still hoping for an arrest in this case for these sweet girls.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, lots of people get others to do their dirty work. That someone could have been paid or "taken care of" in some way is not the picture of professional hit man that we would think of from movies.

Yes and also if for any reason there was gang involvement, for example a threat to shut someone or retaliation for a perceived wrong directed toward a family member, the actual person committing the act would be on the low rung of the organization. Where there's meth, there's almost always organized crime. That spouses and children can become pawns is despicable. If there is that connection to this case, I can understand why it'd be difficult to solve. Everybody shuts up, in fear that someone close to them will be next.

 

[KellyNoonan]

Yes and also if for any reason there was gang involvement, for example a threat to shut someone or retaliation for a perceived wrong directed toward a family member, the actual person committing the act would be on the low rung of the organization. Where there's meth, there's almost always organized crime. That spouses and children can become pawns is despicable. If there is that connection to this case, I can understand why it'd be difficult to solve. Everybody shuts up, in fear that someone close to them will be next.

Is it possible to glean from public court records if a plea agreement was made in a case? Or if someone gave the State information in lieu of serving time? I would assume no, but have no idea.

 

[Brighty]

The Flora fire is something that I have been researching and sharing info about since Abby and Libby were killed. It would be great to be able to share that information and links to the other articles. It was actually my bringing up of the story and sharing it in SM that got one of the groups to sleuthing ME. A scary experience.

The oldest girl that died in the Flora fire was 11, Delphi girls were 13 and 14. I assume being different towns they went to different schools is that true? I wonder if there was something they did have in common, some youth group or something where their paths crossed? It would seem extreme for a killer to burn down a house with a family in it to target one of the members but could be. What is your theory of connection?

 

[MistyWaters]

Is it possible to glean from public court records if a plea agreement was made in a case? Or if someone gave the State information in lieu of serving time? I would assume no, but have no idea.

No, not easily I don't think but someone from Indiana can answer that better than me. However if organized crime is involved, it's common for those type of records to be sealed.

 

[KellyNoonan]

The human side to this case...another short feature in tonight's local news. Bless her.

http://www.wlfi.com/story/35409653/mom-of-slain-delphi-teen-shares-her-story-with-new-18


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[FrostedGlass]

Is it possible to glean from public court records if a plea agreement was made in a case? Or if someone gave the State information in lieu of serving time? I would assume no, but have no idea.

You can see that there has been a plea agreement but can't see what was in it.

 

[KellyNoonan]

The oldest girl that died in the Flora fire was 11, Delphi girls were 13 and 14. I assume being different towns they went to different schools is that true? I wonder if there was something they did have in common, some youth group or something where their paths crossed? It would seem extreme for a killer to burn down a house with a family in it to target one of the members but could be. What is your theory of connection?

They would not have gone to school together.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

Jumping off your thoughts here, I have been wondering if RL or any other neighbors in that general vicinity have had any contract work done in recent years, such as a new roof, remodeling, etc.

I've probably just been spending too much time in the image thread, but something new came to mind today. I wonder if Libby took a lot of pictures with people in the background, or if she stuck to mainly photographing nature and people she knew. Is it possible that she may have taken a picture of him at some point in the past that might be clearer than the stills from the video? Whether he's a local or not, he almost has to have spent some time there in order to navigate well enough to get to the bridge, get the girls to where they were found, murder them and get out of there without being seen and/or leaving anything that obviously points to him.

Of course, even if she did take one or more picture of him, he may look nothing like those we have if he's in different clothes and/or a different location. I just thought if they found a photo of him on her camera or Cloud, someone else might remember when it was taken and be able to say who was there. Another long shot, but I'm trying not to just keep repeating the same ideas over and over.

MOO

 

[KellyNoonan]

In the interview today she says "whoever did this is long gone." This seems telling imo.

Are you referring to the interview I just posted? If so, she was referring to all the people out there who are saying things like that and that she is determined not to let them (that sentiment) win.


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[Thom777]

Hi. I believe she is just referring to other peoples views. The ones out there who say "we're never going to find out who did this" or "whoever did this is long gone"

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

Exactly. If this was some act of retribution involving criminal enterprise, there may be half a dozen people between the "wronged" subject and the "contractor". This may seem like a far-fetched idea, but if we look at the Iowa case as possibly related, in that case, DM's mother-in-law(Lyric's grandmother) was adamant, even in discussing the case with reporters, no less, that DM had informed on people as part of his plea agreement and that was the cause of those girls' deaths, in her opinion.There was a time when targeting children for such things was unheard of, but times have changed.

Yes and also if for any reason there was gang involvement, for example a threat to shut someone or retaliation for a perceived wrong directed toward a family member, the actual person committing the act would be on the low rung of the organization. Where there's meth, there's almost always organized crime. That spouses and children can become pawns is despicable. If there is that connection to this case, I can understand why it'd be difficult to solve. Everybody shuts up, in fear that someone close to them will be next.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Are you referring to the interview I just posted? If so, she was referring to all the people out there who are saying things like that and that she is determined not to let them (that sentiment) win.


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You are right. I tried to delete it . Article reads different than hearing Anna's actual voice make statement. Sorry.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

Plea agreements, yes, but agreeing to cooperate is generally only available via "discovery" records from the specific court cases the informants worked on. In other words, "discovery" includes the details of how the state obtained their evidence, and generally includes the name of the informant. Confidential informant(CI) lists have been known to make their way into circulation among the criminal underworld from time to time, as well, but it isn't legal(or ethical, obviously) for LE to let those things slip. It does, however, happen.

ETA: Sometimes informants also agree to get info(texts, etc) on their cell phones as a "safer" means of informing. In that case, there is usually public record of a warrant for the subject's call phone. It's not a "guarantee" that they willingly informed, but in some cases, folks seem to get branded as informants if there is any suspicion at all. The drug world, and especially wrt meth, is highly paranoid. JMO

Is it possible to glean from public court records if a plea agreement was made in a case? Or if someone gave the State information in lieu of serving time? I would assume no, but have no idea.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

WRT "nothing usual or typical about this case"....I agree 100%, and that also means that the techniques(profiling, etc) that LE usually relies on may not fit, making it all the more difficult to solve. I believe wholeheartedly that we are in the midst of an "evolution' or "shift" in criminal enterprise in this country. I liken it to the prohibition era, when LE actually had to "catch up" due to a smarter, more organized, and more ruthless criminal element than had ever before been witnessed. When a national, or international, shift in criminality occurs, the ripples seem affect ALL crime. Criminals study LE's techniques and try to stay ahead of the game, so to speak. I agree that the genesis of whatever led to this crime was most likely local. I also believe, based on the audio, that the suspect is probably from within 100 +/- miles of Delphi. I don't think he's "local" as in "from Delphi", but I believe he IS relatively local. JMO

<modsnip>


I'm sorry, maybe I was misunderstood. Maybe I worded it wrong. I don't typically follow crimes that happen on the other side of the country. That's all that I meant by saying that I have taken an unusual interest in this case.

You're right, there's nothing "usual" or "typical" about this case. I would say that going back to very first thread on WS, a month after it happened and reading every single post, which took hours and hours BTW, is taking an unusual interest.

Also, I'm not at all "blaming" locals per se, I just think this is a local issue, meaning that it's a small town problem that was ultimately the cause of their deaths.

I appreciate that you disagree with my theory. But afterall, it's my theory. Either you sign on or don't. I just wanted to share what I thought.

Thanks,

 

[KellyNoonan]

Plea agreements, yes, but agreeing to cooperate is generally only available via "discovery" records from the specific court cases the informants worked on. In other words, "discovery" includes the details of how the state obtained their evidence, and generally includes the name of the informant. Confidential informant(CI) lists have been known to make their way into circulation among the criminal underworld from time to time, as well, but it isn't legal(or ethical, obviously) for LE to let those things slip. It does, however, happen.

ETA: Sometimes informants also agree to get info(texts, etc) on their cell phones as a "safer" means of informing. In that case, there is usually public record of a warrant for the subject's call phone. It's not a "guarantee" that they willingly informed, but in some cases, folks seem to get branded as informants if there is any suspicion at all. The drug world, and especially wrt meth, is highly paranoid. JMO

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I appreciate the information.


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[Deleted member 196796]

I agree with all you have stated but I can't help wonder if that if this crime was in any way personal that something from the audio recording would reflect that. Maybe it did, maybe that's why the early downsizing of the force in the investigation. I also have to say the longer this investigation continues the more I have to lean to thinking a SK based on style and leaving no trail, personal or otherwise.

WRT "nothing usual or typical about this case"....I agree 100%, and that also means that the techniques(profiling, etc) that LE usually relies on may not fit, making it all the more difficult to solve. I believe wholeheartedly that we are in the midst of an "evolution' or "shift" in criminal enterprise in this country. I liken it to the prohibition era, when LE actually had to "catch up" due to a smarter, more organized, and more ruthless criminal element than had ever before been witnessed. When a national, or international, shift in criminality occurs, the ripples seem affect ALL crime. Criminals study LE's techniques and try to stay ahead of the game, so to speak. I agree that the genesis of whatever led to this crime was most likely local. I also believe, based on the audio, that the suspect is probably from within 100 +/- miles of Delphi. I don't think he's "local" as in "from Delphi", but I believe he IS relatively local. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Exactly. If this was some act of retribution involving criminal enterprise, there may be half a dozen people between the "wronged" subject and the "contractor". This may seem like a far-fetched idea, but if we look at the Iowa case as possibly related, in that case, DM's mother-in-law(Lyric's grandmother) was adamant, even in discussing the case with reporters, no less, that DM had informed on people as part of his plea agreement and that was the cause of those girls' deaths, in her opinion.There was a time when targeting children for such things was unheard of, but times have changed.

Yes that's for sure, somehow the word "ruthless" no longer is appropriate and it's absolutely disturbing. And if retaliation occurs after an informant provides information, it also serves as a warning to others in the future to keep their mouths shut. I've long had a fascination with organized crime mainly because of the almost unbelievable level of psychological control by fear and coercion that's maintained over the members. People can become so innocently involved often by drug addictions and generally there is never a means of escape.

If there's a connection to any of these child killings, if something positive might come from it, would be the pubic awareness as it might serve as a wake up call for people to beware. There's far more to criminal gangs than a bunch of motorcycle dudes riding down the highway.


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[Burnt Toast]

Now we are nearly at the 3 month mark do people still think this will be solved ?

i am really hoping that when they have all the forensic evidence back that an arrest will come shortly after. so,yes, i am hopeful it will be solved.

 

[Danke]

I don't think so. He was from Indianapolis, but I never heard any details about his arrest. We were given permission to discuss him back in March (I think), but there really isn't much else to say about him now. I've seen nothing new about him since his arrest.

Who was this person?


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