IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[htiff]

The distances of where the bodies were found are roughly 3/8 of a mile from the NW end of the bridge, and 700-800 feet from the SE end, give or take. I've indicated in other posts that the distance from the SE end to the CS was around 550 - 600 feet, but a member corrected me on that, recently.

The Bike Path Rapist case is an interesting one, and illustrates how these perps can be hiding in plain sight. The guy started in the 70's, stopped for many years, then started again in the (I think it was) late-90's. If our perp is in his 40's or even 50's, I'd venture to guess he's done other killings, perhaps even many years ago, say 80's or 90's.

JMO

.

Interesting. If someone were walking slowly, how long would you estimate it would take to walk from these points.

Lafayette is mentioned as being one of the top ten most dangerous cities in Indiana. It is about half an hour drive to Delphi, and State Road 25 is one suggested route to take, and that route would take you right to one of the entrances to the Monon trails.

http://www.movoto.com/guide/in/most-dangerous-places-in-indiana/

 

[htiff]

The distances of where the bodies were found are roughly 3/8 of a mile from the NW end of the bridge, and 700-800 feet from the SE end, give or take. I've indicated in other posts that the distance from the SE end to the CS was around 550 - 600 feet, but a member corrected me on that, recently.

The Bike Path Rapist case is an interesting one, and illustrates how these perps can be hiding in plain sight. The guy started in the 70's, stopped for many years, then started again in the (I think it was) late-90's. If our perp is in his 40's or even 50's, I'd venture to guess he's done other killings, perhaps even many years ago, say 80's or 90's.

JMO

.

I am not saying that the guy in the article is the killer. But look at how ordinary he looks. If his hair was a little longer, and he was wearing a hoodie and a jacket....

If a guy who looks like this is holding up convenience stores in Lafayette...

He looks like he might be a professor at Purdue.

https://kadn.com/kenner-police-asking-for-help-locating-possible-robbery-suspect-in-lafayette-area/

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think he's just imploring people to be open to every possibility and not assume "it couldn't be X, even though he looks like him, I know my brother/father/cousin/uncle couldn't possibly be a murderer!"

I always think back to BTK's family and how they were so completely unaware of the evil that lurked within him. Fortunately, his family was cooperative with police when asked for DNA. I'm sure they thought "I'll give them my DNA, no way it could be my dad!" I wonder if they would have turned him in if they'd seen a sketch like this? Just because they wouldn't think he could be responsible?

One thing I've learned in this life is that almost anyone can be capable of almost anything. There are a few exceptions, but I've learned to expect the worst of people.

Thanks to you and Jax for offering your opinions. I've gone back and added a few sentences that I left out in my original post. This is the correct link, interview with ISP First Sgt. Jerry Holeman is at the bottom of the page and these comments begin at 8:48mm:

http://fox59.com/2017/08/14/lead-de...ave-more-audio-from-teens-phone-dna-evidence/

"I still believe somebody knows, somebody knows what happened and for whatever reason they won't come forward.. uhm.. and we wish they would, obviously, because this person's probably going to do this again and I'd hate for that to happen to you or your loved ones....and that's the message I want to get out to the public is if you do know for sure, you need to let us know so ...we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter or your mother or sister or anybody, it could be your brother or father as well."

From listening to Holeman, I believe he's including brothers and fathers in with the victims, not possible suspects.

IMO, the girls were not targeted. I believe Holeman is saying that anyone could have been in the girls' shoes when this horrible thing occurred.

 

[No it's not]

I am not saying that the guy in the article is the killer. But look at how ordinary he looks. If his hair was a little longer, and he was wearing a hoodie and a jacket....

If a guy who looks like this is holding up convenience stores in Lafayette...

He looks like he might be a professor at Purdue.

https://kadn.com/kenner-police-asking-for-help-locating-possible-robbery-suspect-in-lafayette-area/

This is Lafayette LA.

-Nin

 

[her]

JMO...
If there was a planned rendezvous, there may be evidence on one or both of the girls' phones. BG could have used a fake account on a burner phone he paid for with cash and was very careful about which networks he was using to contact her/them, and only ever used it while stalking her/them. Virtually untraceable.

but nonetheless evidence that this happened and it's not the case so far

 

[htiff]

This is Lafayette LA.

-Nin

Ooops. Ok. But lafayette Indiana is in the top ten of most dangerous cities in Indiana. And it's a 1/2 hour drive on State Road 25 or Highway 25 to Delphi.

Just something to look at maybe.

 

[her]

I dont think he murdered anyone before.

I really don't know but that's quite possibly the situation. Yep, that's been in my mind also.

/plays broken record police needs to give the public more information

I cannot even fathom how frustrating it is for the police if it's this mind numbing to me.

 

[Deleted member 718]

JMO...
If there was a planned rendezvous, there may be evidence on one or both of the girls' phones. BG could have used a fake account on a burner phone he paid for with cash and was very careful about which networks he was using to contact her/them, and only ever used it while stalking her/them. Virtually untraceable.

Or maybe they passed notes written on Hello Kitty stationery. /sarc

 

[Hatfield]

Just in review, and I am pretty new to this case so sorry if this info in incredibly redundant:

To put the timeline in geographic context. Delphi In. has a population of approximately 3000 people. Their town center boasts three to four restaurants, one of which is McDonalds. The nearest "city" is Lafayette, with a population of approx. 25,000. These are small towns, even Lafayette. Lots of farmland around. Lots of open space. Delphi has a very, very low crime rate.



Feb 13, 2017/1:00 PM -- Abigail and Liberty are dropped off at an entrance to the Delphi Historic Trails that is near to the Monon Bridge. (The entrance I found that was closest to the bridge is now closed off--but it was on W. 300 N Rd (the same road that RL's home is officially on-though his property extends to Deer Creek where the girls were found.) I don't know for a fact that this is where the girls were dropped off, but it makes the most sense.

If they were dropped off at this entrance their walk along the trail would be at the tail end of the 1.5 mile hike. So maybe they had about 1/2 a mile to walk to the bridge? Depending on how quickly they walked, whether they took pictures or not, they could have easily gotten to the Monon Bridge by 1:20, maybe 1:30. Unless they were goofing off and taking pictures the whole way.


2:07 PM there are those last snapchat photos of Abigail and an empty bridge. Then no one really knows what transpired, although at some point Liberty captures the voice and picture of the man crossing the bridge. We've never been told at what time either the man's picture or his voice were captured---have we?



February 14, 12ish PM the bodies of the girls are discovered 1/2 mile from the bridge, on the opposite side of the creek from where the last pictures were taken by Liberty, 50 feet up the embankment. (According to a source, not LE, a set of footprints led searchers to the bodies.)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens


I know all of the above has been reviewed before, but when I look at where the murders took place, in relation to the center of Delphi, I have to wonder if it is coincidence that the killer chose a spot about as far out of the center of town as you can get--and still run into people on foot. In a very small town, he chose one of the most remote corners of that town, And those girls had not walked very far that day. That's a very short stretch of trail they were on--3/4 of a mile at best. How did the killer find this spot? It's well known to locals, but would a stranger to the town, just happening through, find that spot easily?

And how does he know that property owners residing on the other side of Monon Bridge won't come after him as he trespasses on their land? Indiana is a STAND YOUR GROUND state. Someone could have seen this guy trespassing and just shot him. Why wasn't the killer more concerned about property owners noticing his presence?

It really feels like this guy has some kind of familiarity with this location. Add to this that he was there on a Monday, a week-day, in the afternoon.

I also noticed that Abigail was wearing a light hoodie, that she had open. Yet the man is bundled up in at least two layers of hoodie and jacket. It wasn't a balmy day, but warm for that time of year. Was he hiding, and therefore had to be more bundled up, because he wasn't walking alll that much on the trail, but was instead lurking? Maybe he did more lurking than walking that day.

I don't know. And an isolated location on a hiking trail is not an unusual place for an attack to occur in broad daylight. But everything this guy did was so risky. Unless he'd really scoped it out on other occasions. Or maybe scoped it out earlier that day?

What would bring a stranger to this small town in the first place?

Don't have any answers. In the case of the Amherst Trail rapist and killer, he lived very nearby the trail. And LE looked past him initially because he was well respected in the community and didn't resemble the composite sketch. It wan't until years later, when his DNA matched that found on his victims, that he was caught.

Could this guy be hiding in plain site? Could the sketch be wrong?

Could this guy be from Lafayette? Lafayette has a very high crime rate, and the Google maps suggested route is State Road 25 (27 min). State Road 25 is where one of the entrances to the Monon trail is.

This is a stretch, but maybe the killer is this close by. Maybe another town nearby.

This is a great post. Thanks

All JMO

I think you could be right too that he used the trail to leave town.

The LE and searchers got there so quickly and yet he somehow escaped. So he could have been on foot the whole time and maybe just left the way he came there. He could have walked the distance back to Lafyatte area.

I dont think he is local to Delphi. I think he may have been a transient type that maybe had camped out in the spot where he took the girls to murder them. If he had spent the night there then he would have known nobody would show up there if he took them back to that exact spot which is not far from the bridge.

I really hope LE has some DNA because if they dont then it is going to be very difficult to ever ID the BG. The sketch is really good and I hope some tips come in for lookalikes to the sketch.

I totally agree that the BG had been there before. He knew this location and had been there before. But I dont think he lived in Delphi unless it may have been when he was much younger.

If I had to guess I think he exited the area on foot and used the trail to head back towards Lafyaette for his getaway.

ETA Just want to add that I have the same theory even if he did have a car. All he would have had to do is park somewhere not too close but not too far away and he could have made his way to his vehicle to then drive back towards Lafyaette. For some reason I keep thinking Lafayette is where he went afterwards.

 

[htiff]

Whoever did this had a lot of time to get away. But they couldn't necessarily have known they would have this kind of time. If the killer parked at the entrance to the Monon Trail that is located at the start--just off State Road 25, he could have killed the girls--say that event is done by 4 pm. The hike back to state road 25 would have been about an hour. Maybe less. Then he's in his car and gone before the girls are even officially reported missing.

And if he wasn't covered in blood. If he is able to still present as normal. Who would know?

I have to think he knew, even under the worst case scenario, that his escape route would be doable...

Unless he's just lucky...

No one has mentioned if the parking lots specific to the trail were ever investigated. As in, did anyone see a vehicle at any of the entrance points?

Maybe that would be impossible to really check if there were no cameras.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I think when he made the comment it was the 17th and the autopsy results were already back on wednesday 15th a.m IIRC so family would know by the 17th if there were defensive wounds from fighting back IMO.

I highly doubt that LE would have told much of anything to the families. At that point in the investigation and not knowing who BG is nor who he might be connected to (which could have been a family member for all LE knew at the time) LE would not have disclosed details only the killer should know to anyone.

 

[JustTheLaw]

I've been hung up on the "not blue" stipulation since the new sketch came out. It makes no sense to me either. It just seems like they would have said "eyes MAY be brown, hazel, or green" instead of definitively "not blue." This is why as soon as I heard this I assumed they were also working off the perp's DNA (Parabon snapshot), perhaps in combo with eyewitnesses. This was discussed in a previous thread too. But then other things about the case make you think they don't have DNA, or don't have it yet. So many questions.

Yes. I got carjacked in my office garage in LA. This guy was so close that he scratched my arm grabbing for my keys. One goes into this sort of trance. Hard to explain but I could not tell you his eye color & we were face to face. In fact, I would not have been able to pick him out in a line up! The best I could do was approx height & nationality. Nor did I scream! I froze as he was cussing at me. It was only after he screatched off in my car that I ran. Fight or flight took over. If these girls did not scream early on, it was because they, too, froze.

 

[htiff]

This is a great post. Thanks

All JMO

I think you could be right too that he used the trail to leave town.

The LE and searchers got there so quickly and yet he somehow escaped. So he could have been on foot the whole time and maybe just left the way he came there. He could have walked the distance back to Lafyatte area.

I dont think he is local to Delphi. I think he may have been a transient type that maybe had camped out in the spot where he took the girls to murder them. If he had spent the night there then he would have known nobody would show up there if he took them back to that exact spot which is not far from the bridge.

I really hope LE has some DNA because if they dont then it is going to be very difficult to ever ID the BG. The sketch is really good and I hope some tips come in for lookalikes to the sketch.

I totally agree that the BG had been there before. He knew this location and had been there before. But I dont think he lived in Delphi unless it may have been when he was much younger.

If I had to guess I think he exited the area on foot and used the trail to head back towards Lafyaette for his getaway.

I don't think he lived in Delphi either. Delphi has a population of 3000. So if he lived there, someone would probably have recognized him by now. But he could live in Lafayette. And that area has a population that ranges, depending on whether its West Lafayette or Lafayette of about 200K, all included. It's very close to Delphi and the route to Delphi would actually take you right by one of the entrances to the Monon Bridge trail.

Lafayette and West Lafayette are places someone could easily blend into. And these areas are close enough that someone living there could get to the trail on a break from work. Or right after.

It would be easy to get to the Monon Bridge Trail and back, and the route is direct.

And Lafayette, especially West Lafayette has a very high crime rate. And perhaps a very high unemployment rate as well. You also have Purdue University right there--with a transient population by way of that.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Or maybe they passed notes written on Hello Kitty stationery. /sarc

:silly:

 

[JustTheLaw]

Yes. I got carjacked in my office garage in LA. This guy was so close that he scratched my arm grabbing for my keys. One goes into this sort of trance. Hard to explain but I could not tell you his eye color & we were face to face. In fact, I would not have been able to pick him out in a line up! The best I could do was approx height & nationality. Nor did I scream! I froze as he was cussing at me. It was only after he screatched off in my car that I ran. Fight or flight took over. If these girls did not scream early on, it was because they, too, froze.

also, this is why I am skeptical about eyewitness testimony & sketches.

 

[pepper 34]

A K9 and handler are exiting the wooded area as Rescue Divers prepare to enter @ 1:07

Why the K9, or K9s, did not locate the bodies is something I've been unable to reconcile. However, the WTHR video was posted to youtube on Feb 15 and not the 14th so there is that consideration. The reporter states: "For the second afternoon, divers ...."

[video=youtube;u_WNHtqEUBo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_WNHtqEUBo[/video]

Is anyone able to identify what area of the woods these dogs are emerging from? Maybe the dogs were brought to the wrong area. I wonder how long they had the dogs out there, too.

 

[htiff]

Yes. I got carjacked in my office garage in LA. This guy was so close that he scratched my arm grabbing for my keys. One goes into this sort of trance. Hard to explain but I could not tell you his eye color & we were face to face. In fact, I would not have been able to pick him out in a line up! The best I could do was approx height & nationality. Nor did I scream! I froze as he was cussing at me. It was only after he screatched off in my car that I ran. Fight or flight took over. If these girls did not scream early on, it was because they, too, froze.

I've been held up at gun point as well. My guy wore a mask, but his accomplice, a woman, did not. I couldn't tell you what either of them looked like. And I was useless at the line-up.

I did everything he told me to. I didn't scream. The only thing I did was I lied to him about two things, that I realized later, could have gotten me killed.

In my case, I was in an isolated area and knew that screaming would be pointless, and all it would do is piss off the guy with the gun. It's really hard to know what to do in a situation like that. The only real survival "skill" I employed, was thinking through every choice I made. It was like the world slowed down. I do recall that my thoughts were very in depth. I was trying to figure out how to survive--but the situation was completely foreign to me. I had nothing to guide me but my gut.

 

[pepper 34]

There may be hold-back information on the DNA. But I agree with what someone else posted on this forum, that if there had been semen, or DNA found under the finger-nails, if there was blood of someone other than the victims found on their clothing, for example, there would be no need to exclude DNA, because who but the killer would have left DNA in these locations? (except possibly DNA under the fingernails--this might have come from another source).

So either LE is holding back info. or the killer didn't leave DNA that was obviously his. It may be touch DNA which, because LE doesn't have a suspect to test against, they can only identify through a process of elimination.

But after re-reading a dozen articles on this, I think it's very likely that LE is holding back a ton of information from the public. Until this guy is found, we may not know much more than we know now. And we don't know that much.

I agree. However, it was the bolded sentence that I was addressing:

Originally Posted by Eileen730
I think he felt she would have fought back. she was fiesty I dont believe he knew if she did or did not. JMO
If LE found DNA on these two young girls we would not still be addressing it all these months later.

The bolded sentence, as I interpreted because of that one little word "IF" made it sound like you were saying they had found no DNA related to the killer and that somehow our discussing it all this time later validated that "fact." Sorry for the misunderstanding.
JMO :moo:

 

[Falling Down]

I don't think he lived in Delphi either. Delphi has a population of 3000. So if he lived there, someone would probably have recognized him by now. But he could live in Lafayette. And that area has a population that ranges, depending on whether its West Lafayette or Lafayette of about 200K, all included. It's very close to Delphi and the route to Delphi would actually take you right by one of the entrances to the Monon Bridge trail.

Lafayette and West Lafayette are places someone could easily blend into. And these areas are close enough that someone living there could get to the trail on a break from work. Or right after.

It would be easy to get to the Monon Bridge Trail and back, and the route is direct.

And Lafayette, especially West Lafayette has a very high crime rate. And perhaps a very high unemployment rate as well. You also have Purdue University right there--with a transient population by way of that.

Within an hour's drive are some population centers, to include Indy, and then there's the state line with Illinois. Looks like U.S. 24 is kind of a straight shot to the state line..

As members here posted in previous threads, BG could live hours away, and still have been home for dinner. I agree with folks here who have noted there are parts of Indiana which have major drug and crime issues in general, but that's true of a lot of rural America, these days, I think. BG could be from a fairly sizeable distance from Delphi, I guess we'll find out at some point in the future.

My hunch is BG had to get out of there w/o being seen, at least up close. Most likely drove straight to his residence, so as to prevent any situations where he could have been ID'd within a given distance of Delphi. Another thing to consider is a vehicle, he's not going to be driving some junk vehicle which could break down on the way home. Or maybe he had an accomplice who drove him. Unlikely, but plausible.

 

[Yemelyan]

I highly doubt that LE would have told much of anything to the families. At that point in the investigation and not knowing who BG is nor who he might be connected to (which could have been a family member for all LE knew at the time) LE would not have disclosed details only the killer should know to anyone.

I agree with this. And I also think that when someone close to you dies tragically and suddenly, you might have the tendency to create a narrative in your own mind of what happened in order for you to cope. For Libby's grandfather, "she fought like hell" might be his own interpretation of her wounds and injuries. Thinking that at least she was able to fight her attacker may be the thing that lets him move forward emotionally from her loss. And I do not mean this as any disrespect to those poor girls.