IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[JustTheLaw]

I've been held up at gun point as well. My guy wore a mask, but his accomplice, a woman, did not. I couldn't tell you what either of them looked like. And I was useless at the line-up.

I did everything he told me to. I didn't scream. The only thing I did was I lied to him about two things, that I realized later, could have gotten me killed.

In my case, I was in an isolated area and knew that screaming would be pointless, and all it would do is piss off the guy with the gun. It's really hard to know what to do in a situation like that. The only real survival "skill" I employed, was thinking through every choice I made. It was like the world slowed down. I do recall that my thoughts were very in depth. I was trying to figure out how to survive--but the situation was completely foreign to me. I had nothing to guide me but my gut.

sorry you went thro that too. Point being when people question why these girls did not scream or run and they were only 13 and 14 yrs old! They, too,froze!
Like us, their world slowed down too. They followed orders to survive.

 

[pepper 34]

I think he saw the girls at some point, and did stalk them across the bridge.

Whether or not he went to the bridge area to stalk random females, I doubt, but am not sure. I think he was in already in the area beforehand, because of circumstances involving being homeless, or needing a friend to stay with. Perhaps he was mad about something or misinterpreted the actions of others.

Then he saw the girls and saw an opportunity.

Anyway, just another theory, but I do think it's sooo important to look at the transients in the area, where any may have stayed, and any evidence left behind. FWIW

I agree he could have been staying with friends in the area but I think they are people he visits with because the acquaintance is an old one. Could be relatives. That is how I think he knew it was a no-school day. I think he also knew the 2 houses that flank the area would be empty (1 has working owner and 1 has someone who is gone every year during winter.) and maybe he even knew that the "land owner" would be out of the house that day. With those 3 houses empty, he had the run of the whole place. All he had to do was keep an eye on the girls and wait for most everyone else to leave the park ... and hope the girls remained right where they were. (and they seemed to have done that) There is a curve in the creek so that the CS can't be seen from the NE end of the bridge and it would be hard to see the CS from the SE end of the bridge due to the trees.
You wrote: "Then he saw the girls and saw an opportunity."
I agree but I also think he's been to that park and that whole scenario was planned. He may have been to the park in the past and the opportunity did NOT present itself but he was there hoping that it would, imo. He'd had the plan for awhile, imo... " a sure fire plan" to his way of thinking and, unfortunately, everything fell into place for him that day.
Speculating and JMO

 

[Confusion]

Mass transportation is not lacking in Delphi. It's a small town, but it has a large meat processing plant needing to move a huge product. It's located right on an interstate highway. Not to mention the frequent freight trains that run right through town. Here's a video of a train crossing a bridge over Deer Creek. It's upstream on the same creek where Libby and Abby were found.

There's also the fact that being a transient doesn't necessarily mean being without a vehicle. MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

The only issue, which is a big one, is age. If the suspect in 1988 was suggested to be 45 to 50, let's take away a few years and say 40 years old in 1988, he would now be 69?? The POI in the Delphi case is assumed to be 40ish I believe?? That is an extreme age difference. But your post was great to read. ♡

Sorry for the confusion...he was estimated to be 45-55 plus or minus a few years, in 2015.

I realize there are things that don't fit but there is a face to compare to BG and a similar MO from what few details we know. I just thought it was worth looking into since without much other input we are kind of spinning our collective wheels.

 

[mpnola]

sorry you went thro that too. Point being when people question why these girls did not scream or run and they were only 13 and 14 yrs old! They, too,froze!
Like us, their world slowed down too. They followed orders to survive.

Yes. That is by far my most hated conversation here. Like they could have, should have, would have done something different.... different when looked at it while in cozy pajamas and a locked door behind a computer. Fine time to question a real life tragedy. These children did more than most any of us would have done! It's not even ok that it is discussed like "kids these days run. Why didn't they run." Ok. I hope you never have to find out what you would do (you being the random questioner of their actions... not YOU you, Law lol).

Oh that and the conversation about Abby being the guys sexual target and Libby being an onlooker. Thats the other one i hate. People don't even realize how biased and offensive they are. They are beautiful. Both of them.

And this dude is a child murdering monster. His target was "weakness " that he felt he could control. His drug is adrenaline. No meth lab needed. I don't know.many drug heads that decide to walk across a really dangerous bridge to cook some drugs. They have lots of easier places. This dude was out to hunt, to kill, to control, to torture, to get an adrenaline rush of a kidnapping and murder at 2pm in the middle of a public place. 2 victims only sweetened his poisonous pot.

So, how but them dad jeans? I thought the jeans convo wore me out, but the new convo going round and round make me.long for some hip wader discussions! Hahah

All of this is my opinion. I don't have a link. Cause it's in my brain.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[dove28]

The only issue, which is a big one, is age. If the suspect in 1988 was suggested to be 45 to 50, let's take away a few years and say 40 years old in 1988, he would now be 69?? The POI in the Delphi case is assumed to be 40ish I believe?? That is an extreme age difference. But your post was great to read. ♡

No, he's suggested to be that age now (or rather in 2015). From the post you quoted: "His age estimate as of 2015 was 45-55 years old, though LE in that case urged people to consider someone a few years older or younger."

 

[Jim_M]

Yes. That is by far my most hated conversation here. Like they could have, should have, would have done something different.... different when looked at it while in cozy pajamas and a locked door behind a computer. Fine time to question a real life tragedy. These children did more than most any of us would have done! It's not even ok that it is discussed like "kids these days run. Why didn't they run." Ok. I hope you never have to find out what you would do (you being the random questioner of their actions... not YOU you, Law lol).

Oh that and the conversation about Abby being the guys sexual target and Libby being an onlooker. Thats the other one i hate. People don't even realize how biased and offensive they are. They are beautiful. Both of them.

And this dude is a child murdering monster. His target was "weakness " that he felt he could control. His drug is adrenaline. No meth lab needed. I don't know.many drug heads that decide to walk across a really dangerous bridge to cook some drugs. They have lots of easier places. This dude was out to hunt, to kill, to control, to torture, to get an adrenaline rush of a kidnapping and murder at 2pm in the middle of a public place. 2 victims only sweetened his poisonous pot.

So, how but them dad jeans? I thought the jeans convo wore me out, but the new convo going round and round make me.long for some hip wader discussions! Hahah

All of this is my opinion. I don't have a link. Cause it's in my brain.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I enjoy watching your brain at work. Many others do also, I'm sure

What did this monster do to subdue these children? Did he pull out a gun? Would he have used it, if they did not comply? Was it a knife? A taser? Something that shocked them so quickly, that screaming, nor running, were ever an option?

Forgive me if already covered. Was there any discussion about Abby's phone? Did she have one? Was it recovered? Was it on her person when this evil visited their happy lives? I know we have hoped to receive more information from LE about Liberty's phone data. Just cannot recall anything about our Abby's.

We require justice for these young children. Their promising lives were extinguished, much too soon.

 

[Sincerely]

"We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police.

From February 20

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...g-road-near-delphi-police-want-to-talk-to-you


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[htiff]

BBM

"We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police.

From February 20

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...g-road-near-delphi-police-want-to-talk-to-you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is early in the investigation, but it's very interesting, because it might indicate where LE believes the killer's egress was.

 

[htiff]

Mass transportation is not lacking in Delphi. It's a small town, but it has a large meat processing plant needing to move a huge product. It's located right on an interstate highway. Not to mention the frequent freight trains that run right through town. Here's a video of a train crossing a bridge over Deer Creek. It's upstream on the same creek where Libby and Abby were found.

[video=youtube;3TZmz_1agAE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TZmz_1agAE[/video]

How often does this train run? Is it Amtrack or is it freight? Does it actually stop in Delphi?

 

[Yemelyan]

"We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police.

From February 20

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...g-road-near-delphi-police-want-to-talk-to-you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not local so I had to look up exactly what the Hoosier Heartland Highway was. In case anyone else finds this helpful to picture it, according to the Indiana DOT it's a relatively new 4 lane highway that replaced the old rural SR 25. It runs from Lafayette to Logansport (Delphi is on this section of the highway) and then on to Fort Wayne.


Thanks, Sincerely, for bringing forward this early quote from LE.

 

[htiff]

I'm not local so I had to look up exactly what the Hoosier Heartland Highway was. In case anyone else finds this helpful to picture it, according to the Indiana DOT it's a relatively new 4 lane highway that replaced the old rural SR 25. It runs from Lafayette to Logansport (Delphi is on this section of the highway) and then on to Fort Wayne.


Thanks, Sincerely, for bringing forward this early quote from LE.

LE may have traced the killer to someplace other than a parking lot. Maybe a road the killer would have had to walk to get to his car. Notice the wording--"if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker"

LE isn't asking if anyone picked up a hitchhiker-only if they saw someone who was walking in an area who didn't fit in, or LOOKED like a hitchhiker.

Interesting.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I enjoy watching your brain at work. Many others do also, I'm sure

What did this monster do to subdue these children? Did he pull out a gun? Would he have used it, if they did not comply? Was it a knife? A taser? Something that shocked them so quickly, that screaming, nor running, were ever an option?

Forgive me if already covered. Was there any discussion about Abby's phone? Did she have one? Was it recovered? Was it on her person when this evil visited their happy lives? I know we have hoped to receive more information from LE about Liberty's phone data. Just cannot recall anything about our Abby's.

We require justice for these young children. Their promising lives were extinguished, much too soon.

If I remember correctly Abbey's mum said she used to borrow her camera to take photos as she didn't have a cell phone yet.

Just replying to your query about A's phone by bumping Greg's response to an earlier poster.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I just don't see someone all amped up from a murderous attack hitchhiking. Too risky.

 

[Eileen730]

Yes. That is by far my most hated conversation here. Like they could have, should have, would have done something different.... different when looked at it while in cozy pajamas and a locked door behind a computer. Fine time to question a real life tragedy. These children did more than most any of us would have done! It's not even ok that it is discussed like "kids these days run. Why didn't they run." Ok. I hope you never have to find out what you would do (you being the random questioner of their actions... not YOU you, Law lol).

Oh that and the conversation about Abby being the guys sexual target and Libby being an onlooker. Thats the other one i hate. People don't even realize how biased and offensive they are. They are beautiful. Both of them.

And this dude is a child murdering monster. His target was "weakness " that he felt he could control. His drug is adrenaline. No meth lab needed. I don't know.many drug heads that decide to walk across a really dangerous bridge to cook some drugs. They have lots of easier places. This dude was out to hunt, to kill, to control, to torture, to get an adrenaline rush of a kidnapping and murder at 2pm in the middle of a public place. 2 victims only sweetened his poisonous pot.

So, how but them dad jeans? I thought the jeans convo wore me out, but the new convo going round and round make me.long for some hip wader discussions! Hahah

All of this is my opinion. I don't have a link. Cause it's in my brain.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

If u go back it was posted Libby fought the dude per grandfather now if she gave him the fight of her life lets say after he did what he did to Abby and she fighting him id think she would scream very loud knowing what this guy did.


Why would they walk off intot he woods with this man? Everyone here says they were studying crime went to classes why wait for the guy to get close if they had a bad feeling about him. THEY KNEW HIM?

Now my first thought are they saw saw the guy doing something illegal
My second one is the person is known to them. Someone close.

I dont know if im right or wrong these are just my thoughts on this tragedy.
I dont see it as many of you do and hey thats why we are here to share our thoughts.

there are some ppl here on WS that have hit many cases spot on most of us do not. But we linger here anyway...
thanks for listening to my rant.
Hope Justice comes soon for these 2 young ladies.

 

[Eileen730]

I enjoy watching your brain at work. Many others do also, I'm sure

What did this monster do to subdue these children? Did he pull out a gun? Would he have used it, if they did not comply? Was it a knife? A taser? Something that shocked them so quickly, that screaming, nor running, were ever an option?

Forgive me if already covered. Was there any discussion about Abby's phone? Did she have one? Was it recovered? Was it on her person when this evil visited their happy lives? I know we have hoped to receive more information from LE about Liberty's phone data. Just cannot recall anything about our Abby's.

We require justice for these young children. Their promising lives were extinguished, much too soon.

All he would have to do would be to grab one of the girls no weapon needed... do as I say or ill.....to your friend. now get down the hill.........................

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I truly don't understand the 'why didn't they' speculation. This could be said of every victim we have ever discussed here that found themselves in a very dangerous situation resulting in their murder. To know the answers someone tragically has to live it just like all the victims did when they experienced their own nightmare at the time when they crossed paths with their own heinous murderer.

I think the girls did everything they could thinking it would save their lives. In so many cases like this the victim/s feel if they comply to the demands of the criminal he/she will let them live. It is human nature for two close friends to try and protect the other one from harm. All this fiend had to do is grab one of the girls threatening to kill her and the other one would do as he said. If he told them not to scream they would comply. If he told one of the girls to tie the other one up they would comply thinking if they did everything he demanded he would eventually let them go. Humans always want to hold onto hope.

They knew when it started that if they did not do as he told them to do he would kill one or both of them right then and there. They had no clue who they were dealing with at the time and I believe they thought the best chance they had was to do as he said. They died trying to protect each other due to the love and bond they both had, imo. It shows what beautiful souls they had.

In some aspects this case reminds me of Joseph Duncan and how he cruised areas like this looking for his next prey. He always killed in places that were remote but very close to a four lane highway or interstate so he could quickly leave the area. He would go to county parks, national parks or camping sites pretending to be one of 'them.' He was quickly gone from the area once he had raped, tortured, and murdered his latest victim/s. He had a nice vehicle and he wasn't homeless.

I don't think BG is homeless either. He may be a nomadic rapist/murderer like JED. JED had become so good at escaping without detection for years that many of his murders weren't disclosed until he was arrested for killing the Greones along with the rapes of Shasta and the rapes of Dylan before he murdered him. His comfort zone for kidnapping/raping, and murdering his victims were in these kind of areas even if he had never been in any of them before he found his victims.

These two young girls did more than most other victims trying to leave clues for the police. They are truly heroes. They ran across a vile twisted sub-human who planned to murder both of them. My heart breaks for them because their fear had to be beyond anything that any of us can even imagine.

IMO

 

[Deleted member 278]

Someone posted up-thread that the girls waved to friends. Any truth to that?

 

[Deleted member 278]

No one was visible because BG was over on the NE side of the bridge letting them take that walk over by themselves. He would have perhaps followed them when they first walked along the path upon entering the park. The girls saw friends and waved at them... other people were around... so, his following them for a short while was more of an annoyance. He made himself scarce. It seemed like he was gone. They walked out onto the bridge to take photos. Later, when BG found everyone had left the NE bridge area, he began to walk out onto the bridge. The girls probably didn't even see him for awhile (the bridge is so long) or didn't see it was the same man. I think they probably thought, "here's that creep again" when they saw him but didn't sense the real danger. He's got his head down... maybe purposely making it look like he's not very good at walking along that bridge (think Bundy and his broken arm.) They might have wanted to record his face because he might say something inappropriate but I doubt they could guess what was about to happen. Creepy but not a 911 situation.
But, perhaps the sheriff was only guessing, too, when he spoke about the man following them. Personally I find the sheriff quite hard to pin down and I remember listening to his interview and thinking.. "Wow... that guy is very, very good at double talk. He talked a lot but he only tossed us about 2 or 3 real peanuts... all the rest is peanut butter!" Of course, I know why he communicated that way and, if it helps solve these murders, I'm happy.
Sooo obviously speculation only and JMO
ETA: The 2 video stills of BG on the bridge. You measure the planks and you can see, he has hardly traveled a bit from one step to the next. In still #1, he's upright and then, in still #2, he's leaning and his legs are in an odd position... I think this is his rendition of "helplessness" ... "This bridge is so tricky! I'm just a clumsy, old, harmless fool." I call BS.

This is the post I was referring to. See BBM above.

 

[pepper 34]

Yes. That is by far my most hated conversation here. Like they could have, should have, would have done something different.... different when looked at it while in cozy pajamas and a locked door behind a computer. Fine time to question a real life tragedy. These children did more than most any of us would have done! It's not even ok that it is discussed like "kids these days run. Why didn't they run." Ok. I hope you never have to find out what you would do (you being the random questioner of their actions... not YOU you, Law lol).

Oh that and the conversation about Abby being the guys sexual target and Libby being an onlooker. Thats the other one i hate. People don't even realize how biased and offensive they are. They are beautiful. Both of them.

And this dude is a child murdering monster. His target was "weakness " that he felt he could control. His drug is adrenaline. No meth lab needed. I don't know.many drug heads that decide to walk across a really dangerous bridge to cook some drugs. They have lots of easier places. This dude was out to hunt, to kill, to control, to torture, to get an adrenaline rush of a kidnapping and murder at 2pm in the middle of a public place. 2 victims only sweetened his poisonous pot.

So, how but them dad jeans? I thought the jeans convo wore me out, but the new convo going round and round make me.long for some hip wader discussions! Hahah

All of this is my opinion. I don't have a link. Cause it's in my brain.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

As politely as I know how I would like to address this sort of comment here. It's not the only one of it's kind. I think this post in question might have been better sent in a private message. It seems like the message is just the sharing of a private joke in public (with unnamed members and about unnamed members) ...leaving "others" to wonder if they should even DARE to comment again at the expense of aggravating and angering "others." There is value in opinions we may not agree with, imo. Creating an atmosphere of "us against them" is not helpful in any way at all imo. It's intimidating, unkind, unnecessary and unproductive, imo.
I'm here and, I suspect, many are here because we are heart sick about what happened and we can't do a thing about it other than try to come up with answers. We have hardly a scrap of information to work with. We're all frustrated but, one thing we can do is be kind and polite to each other. Why not? I truly do not understand why not.
I'm reluctant to post this "quick reply," of course. I will anyway because I think this message is important, imo.
It's all just my opinion