IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[her]

I don't know for a case where we are not given more information from the police, I'm very concerned/protective about the facts we do have. I don't want them confused with alternative facts. Everyone of the facts are extremely important to this case.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

The above view shows an area not that far from the crime scene. The view is looking west so the south side is to the left and north to the right. Here we can see one searcher on a sand bar where it isn't so deep. We also see 6 searchers in the water not too far from that searcher. The water is rather deep. We don't know how tall those searches are but it is a good bet they are taller than the girls.

In the best case possible the creek is about 65 feet wide. There is at least 30 feet (and probably a bit wider) of water of a that kind of depth. And it would have been deeper 24 hours earlier on the 13th.

Regardless of the sand bars that exist in the creek - all of which were underwater on the 14th and more so on the 13th - it is simply not possible to have crossed that creek without going through water of similar depth for half the distance. There is no magical walkway through it. That is what it is. And that is in the very best case. Also, keep in mind that you will also see in the helicopter video that there are trees under the water as you can see where they stick out or there is a small amount of whitewater flowing around where a part of the tree barely protrudes. That means that they would also have to get over or around any debris so an optimal straight-line path on the shortest crossing point may not have been the easiest path.

None of this precludes crossing the creek. There was nothing stopping anyone from crossing the creek if they wanted to do so. But there are realities to doing so.

It does a great disservice to people if we have people believing that there is some ankle deep walkway across it on the 13th by emphasizing only the images of searchers on the sand bars or shallow water on the 14th and/or showing what the creek looked like a month later. Even on the 16th there are images and videos that show sand bars well above water and the tree debris that was underwater to give you an idea of just how fast the Deer Creek drainage area empties.

The water gage that provided the data is located not far upstream at all from the crime scene - if you follow the post I linked a few posts back. The volume of water can be seen in the graphs. When you get to the stretch of the creek where the crime scene is located the creek is narrower than the stretch of creek East of it. This means that for the same volume of water that was flowing through a wider part of the creek to pass through a much narrower part of the creek the water must rise to do so since all of that water has to go somewhere and there are phyiscal barriers (the banks on either side) that prevent it from simply widening out. This is simple physics and the behaviors of a fluid like water.

You just dropped the mic didn't you.

 

[terpstra1]

I don't know for a case where we are not given more information from the police, I'm very concerned/protective about the facts we do have. I don't want them confused with alternative facts. Everyone of the facts are extremely important to this case.

True. It's only my opinion that they crossed the shallowist part of the creek. Its only my opinion that he knew this ahead of time because he cut through from the cemetery. But I believe by looking at the Google earth pic I posted,the shallower part of the creek was across from the cs.

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[Bird of Paradise]

I don't know for a case where we are not given more information from the police, I'm very concerned/protective about the facts we do have. I don't want them confused with alternative facts. Everyone of the facts are extremely important to this case.

^^^this

Please. Everyone. Let's stay with the facts.

There are only 3 members viewing this thread as I type this.

 

[her]

True. It's only my opinion that they crossed the shallowist part of the creek. Its only my opinion that he knew this ahead of time because he cut through from the cemetery. But I believe by looking at the Google earth pic I posted,the shallower part of the creek was across from the cs.

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There's nothing wrong with thinking he knew anything ahead of time and very possible.

 

[deedee21]

LE is quite.. What are they doing besides taking tips? This case is so frustrating.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I video I saw, taken on the 14th by helicopter shows the water ankle deep near the crime scene. It also shows searchers further down stream where the water appears to be thigh deep. No where does it show waist deep. I also saw a video taken a few days later where someone had tried to trace the girls path. The water was very shallow directly across from the cs. She didn't cross the creek but showed a path they could have taken with bearly getting their feet wet.

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Have you seen the part of the video where the searchers in red are linked arms (about 5 of them) and slowly going across the creek in a line? That shows it thigh and waist deep and up to underarms at times, on some of them. Also the creek levels fell after the 13th as the snow melt and run off had mostly gone by then so a few days later could affect the depth.

 

[terpstra1]

^^^this

Please. Everyone. Let's stay with the facts.

There are only 3 members viewing this thread as I type this.

Sad. I've always viewed WS as a safe place to post theories and bounce ideas off of each other. If you only want us to post facts this thread wouldn't have made to #6 much less #66.

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[Deleted member 102539]

It's under completely different circumstances however.

In 2010, LE found one body 2 years after the disappearance, and the other 5 years after that. They didn't identify the victims until 2015. In 2008, twitter was barely operating and there was not the vast network of information and communication we have now.

It's 2017 and he's on trial after people had confirmation of the victims and spoke to LE.

The circumstances are very different, yes.
The witnesses in the Australian case had personally information and didn't need electronic communication. One witness even saw a picture of one of the dead/murdered victims on suspect's cellphone, didn't call police but saved the pic via a relative in case "something would happen to herself".They all feared to get murdered themselves, IMO, and I compared this to witnesses in case Abby/Libby. Maybe, some people know what happened to Abby/Libby. Maybe, they wouldn't come forward until BG is arrested because of another info than an info from a witness.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Sad. I've always viewed WS as a safe place to post theories and bounce ideas off of each other. If you only want us to post facts this thread wouldn't have made to #6 much less #66.

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My comment had nothing to do with posting theories OR bouncing ideas off one another.

My comment was pointing out that the water levels have been determined. That is a FACT.

Some of the most wonderful people contribute here. They spend endless hours searching for facts to present to others so we may then work with those facts to understand the process of the crime.

Anyone can choose to ignore said facts but IMO when that is done, it creates a false narrative that has no basis in reality. Hence, my plea to stick to those few facts that we do know.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Have you seen the part of the video where the searchers in red are linked arms (about 5 of them) and slowly going across the creek in a line? That shows it thigh and waist deep and up to underarms at times, on some of them. Also the creek levels fell after the 13th as the snow melt and run off had mostly gone by then so a few days later could affect the depth.

This is true.The drone footage video on YT was suppose to be 2 days before I believe,not watching it again,but the link is out there and showed snow on the ground.

 

[Falling Down]

Just my $.02.

Deer Creek starts at a point east of Kokomo, a good distance away, in fact over 50 miles away. Other creeks run into Deer Creek well east of Delphi. Bridge Creek runs into Deer Creek just downstream from the Monon High Bridge.

So from a hydrology standpoint, it's a very dynamic part of the Wabash River Watershed. Its levels are going to vary quite a bit over the course of a year.

 

[Shiressleuth]

It's not moot for me, your mileage may vary. I personally lean towards them running away through the creek. How easy it was for them and the bg is important. I still won't discount another theory nor call it absurd, since I am not privy to inside information.

We don't know where exactly they crossed the creek. It is only important , I think, to know because if BG was on foot surely someone would have spotted his wet and muddy attire presumably. However, I do think he had a vehicle and was perhaps taking them to it when they made a break. Its the only thing that now makes sense to me. JMO.

 

[htiff]

We don't know where exactly they crossed the creek. It is only important , I think, to know because if BG was on foot surely someone would have spotted his wet and muddy attire presumably. However, I do think he had a vehicle and was perhaps taking them to it when they made a break. Its the only thing that now makes sense to me. JMO.

How the killer must have appeared after all that occurs is an interesting thought. We don't know at what point he emerged from the forest, but he would likely have appeared disheveled and unkempt---muddy, maybe.

It's also interesting that no alert for a vehicle id has been made. Maybe, because the big search and find happened so far after the event it was too late to identify a possible vehicle---but you think someone would have noticed the vehicles parked near them that day.

 

[htiff]

Sad. I've always viewed WS as a safe place to post theories and bounce ideas off of each other. If you only want us to post facts this thread wouldn't have made to #6 much less #66.

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This is not true. I've followed many threads that were fact-dense, and went on for thread after thread. If you are going to depart from facts, then it helps if you announce this with more than a confusing disclaimer of JMO. Admit, that you have no facts to support your assertion, as in, THERE is nothing factual to support my theory, but here's a thought...

The problem on this thread is that there are those presenting total speculation, as if it were factually supported. This makes it really hard for those of us interested in facts to sort through what is conjecture and what is actually supported by facts and some real research done.

The theories don't have to follow LE to the letter, but support your assertion with something. Otherwise, please admit you have nothing factual to back up your theory--in a way that is clear.

Everything is opinion. Obviously, no one here really knows what happened. But some opinion comes from focused and disciplined research and supporting facts found by these means.

Some opinion basically comes out of air. It helps to know which is which.

Two young beautiful girls were murdered here. We owe them this much effort, at least. Don't you think?

 

[Shiressleuth]

A good example is the Creek flow on the 13th. We have several facts - the drone footage pre crime, the actual flow, the video on the 14th, and JM video in March. 4 sets of facts. I have discounted JM as being too far from the event itself so that leaves the others. I have based my thoughts on those others only. That's my prerogative because it's my theory and I am looking at it like "what's the worst case scenario" e.g. so deep they had to swim at some point perhaps. If it was only ankle deep all the way across (which i seriously doubt based on the flow facts) then they could have easily got across, but that would be bad for the girls because it would be easy for BG to follow and not get very wet presumably. Even with these facts we don't know where they crossed so it's complicated. AJMO

Eta. And if we have no facts- like the vehicle theories perhaps or the cause of death for instance then we obviously know speculation is based on scant facts in those areas.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The circumstances are very different, yes.
The witnesses in the Australian case had personally information and didn't need electronic communication. One witness even saw a picture of one of the dead/murdered victims on suspect's cellphone, didn't call police but saved the pic via a relative in case "something would happen to herself".They all feared to get murdered themselves, IMO, and I compared this to witnesses in case Abby/Libby. Maybe, some people know what happened to Abby/Libby. Maybe, they wouldn't come forward until BG is arrested because of another info than an info from a witness.

I agree Germany circumstances may differ but fear is fear and a murderer is someone to be afraid of as long as he is free. The problem comes especially when he is tipped but there is not enough evidence for him to be incarcerated. And, even if incarcerated, there is no guarantee witnesses are safe even then.

 

[mrtnira]

Reflecting on Gracie2112's question, the condition of the killer's appearance after the murders is one to consider. Earlier discussion included if he lived by himself or not. If he lived with someone, there would be the potential for the question of why he looked so messed up (having crossed the creek and the residue of the murders). It gives credence to the suspicion he lives alone, or lives separately (in a part of a house that is independent of the other occupants). Or, he went home when the others were out and was unobserved.

 

[Falling Down]

How the killer must have appeared after all that occurs is an interesting thought. We don't know at what point he emerged from the forest, but he would likely have appeared disheveled and unkempt---muddy, maybe.

It's also interesting that no alert for a vehicle id has been made. Maybe, because the big search and find happened so far after the event it was too late to identify a possible vehicle---but you think someone would have noticed the vehicles parked near them that day.

I'm guessing that there are not any burials at the cemetery during the coldest months of the year, like most other cemeteries in northern U.S. states. So there would not have been any burials on that Monday. The time frame in question is early afternoon hours, so traffic by the cemetery, and within it, would have been scant.

It's like BG made the perfect escape out of that area.

Good points, Gracie2112.

 

[terpstra1]

I'm guessing that there are not any burials at the cemetery during the coldest months of the year, like most other cemeteries in northern U.S. states. So there would not have been any burials on that Monday. The time frame in question is early afternoon hours, so traffic by the cemetery, and within it, would have been scant.

It's like BG made the perfect escape out of that area.

Good points, Gracie2112.

These were my thoughts too. Locals have reported that you can park in the back and your car wouldn't be seen from the road.

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