IN IN - Carmen Van Huss, 19, Indianapolis, 22 March 1993 *arrest*

[LittleMissContrary]

The problem with the attack immediately following the statements heard is that she would have said get off of me ask he began to rape her. Add on the amount of time in the act and then the stabbing, you've got more than a few minutes. I'm guessing he either used the knife as a threat to keep her quiet or more likely, he subdued her. The stabbing seems to me to be a "damn you, look what you made me do". As if by stabbing her he could punish her for making him resort to raping her.

 

[Ghostwheel]

The problem with the attack immediately following the statements heard is that she would have said get off of me ask he began to rape her. Add on the amount of time in the act and then the stabbing, you've got more than a few minutes. I'm guessing he either used the knife as a threat to keep her quiet or more likely, he subdued her. The stabbing seems to me to be a "damn you, look what you made me do". As if by stabbing her he could punish her for making him resort to raping her.

Interesting thought. An alternative would be that it started out consensual, then the attacker got violent, hence the "Get off me." At that point, the stabs. That would allow a little more wiggle room in the time frame, since the statement would be towards the end of the encounter rather than at the beginning. I don't know that I am married to that idea, but I consider it a possibility.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think it's plausible that the suspect got up and headed for the door. Neighbors reported a loud commotion, followed by "get off me". Perhaps Carmen rebuffed the murderer, then he got up and retrieved a weapon. He could have been on his way out the door, and she could have hit him from behind or said something to him for his imprudence, that made him mad, and according to the floor plan, the kitchen was right there at the door, perhaps he became angry and grabbed a knife and attacked her in retaliation.

I really don't think this was a planned attack. Someone who plans an attack would not wait over 2 hours, and if they did because it was some larger experience to them, they would not have left right after the murder. Everything I've seen points me to believe the perpetrator hung out with Carmen consensually. Whether anything else (such as making out) happened consensually or not, who knows, but at some point the murderer was rebuffed and he did not take "no" for an answer.

Jumping off your post, they could have fought, then the attacker could have had her pinned to a wall, holding her against it. That could make someone tell another person to get off them. What I find odd is that there is no mention of screams or any other words, which then indicates to me she was unconscious before being stabbed. Or she could have been partially tied up, so she could not fight beck with her hands, but I don't see that without something else being said or screams, the word "No!" at the very least. (Thinking while posting....)

 

[bessie]

Interesting thought. An alternative would be that it started out consensual, then the attacker got violent, hence the "Get off me." At that point, the stabs. That would allow a little more wiggle room in the time frame, since the statement would be towards the end of the encounter rather than at the beginning. I don't know that I am married to that idea, but I consider it a possibility.

<rbbm>

I am, just as I posted at #109. I believe events progressed over an hour or so of drinking beer and joking around with each other, to an intimate situation that went awry.

Carter said there are several indications Van Huss knew her killer -- the banter and laughter neighbors heard when the two arrived at the apartment and evidence in the apartment that Van Huss and the man had shared a late-night fast food dinner and some bottles of beer.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/19/indiana-unsolved-carmen-van-huss/7903283/

 

[bessie]

I agree with the statement above......"I truly believe the answers are within reach".
What we seem to have established so far is that Carmen arrived home with a friend and an evening "with a friend" started.
We seem to agree that maybe a consentual encounter may have started that turned bad.
I think the friend probably did suggest something perverse and bizarre that Carmen objected to, when he tried to force he she screamed "get off of me".
Screaming either makes the perp run or silence the victim. We know by the outcome that he silenced her.
What we need to work further on is where Carmen knew him from.

<rbbm>

And we agree on the last point, too.

After looking at the meteorological data for that night (chilly temps, foggy with some rain, and no moon), I doubt they met by chance in the parking lot or the laundry room. I'm back to my original thought that the meeting was pre-arranged, and washing the uniform was an excuse for her father. That suggests a belief her father would disapprove, but why would she think that? Perhaps because he was practically a stranger, and meeting with him late at night at her apartment would be risky. Or, he was someone her father was familiar with and didn't like. Or, her father knew her bf was out of town, and would disapprove of Carmen having a "date" with someone else while he was away.

Just throwing out ideas because I think Carmen fibbed to her father, and the reason could have some significance.

JMO

 

[inquisitivecat]

Is there any information on the car she had?
Was it her own car?
Anything found in it, hair, receipts?
Parked in the usual spot?

 

[bessie]

Is there any information on the car she had?
Was it her own car?
Anything found in it, hair, receipts?
Parked in the usual spot?

I haven't seen any mention of Carmen's vehicle.

 

[Ausgirl]

Firstly - Det Sgt Will Carter - Bless you. I wish there were more cops like you in the world.

To stab someone 50 times takes a LOT of effort. In an another case I was looking into, I tried to get an idea of how much effort was required, and so staged a mock fight with a pillow and a member of my household, in which I 'stabbed' the pillow (with my imaginary weapon) a few dozen times while dealing with a struggling 'victim'. I can tell you, I was exhausted... It made me realise that it would take a LOT of rage to sustain someone through that level of overkill.

The average guy, even a sexually pushy one (and hey even most rapists) will not stab somebody -50- times. That is such a major over-reaction, I would not be surprised if the killer -- even if outwardly charming, and I do think he was in some way - has a long history of 'snapping' when challenged or denied something he wants - both sexually, and in other areas of life. Perhaps only people closest to him would ever see it.

I don't know why, but reading this made me recall a guy I knew when I was in college... I had a group of male friends, none of whom I ever dated.. but we did flirt a lot, joking around. There might have been crushes going on, but no-one ever acted on any such feelings. Anyway, the little quiet funny guy of the group, who everyone was really fond of and always seemed kind of sweet ended up showing some shocking true colours one night when all the other went out to get drinks and left us alone. He was nice and sweet as usual, but then he suddenly turned VERY nasty. I mean, he said some incredibly cruel and hurtful things, hateful things, like he despised every atom of me. Stuff about how I was a stuck-up tease who liked to lead men on, how I was such a princess and someone ought to teach me a lesson the hard way, etc etc etc. I did NOT know what to do. (eta: And his face!!! It was literally 'a mask of rage'!)) And I genuinely got rather scared of him. When the others got back, I was crying my eyes out. The guy laughed it all off, minimised the whole thing, "I was joking, hey she takes thing way too serious, hey c'monnn I'm sorry!" But not until the others entered that room. I never saw him the same way again, after that, and neither did his friends I think.

Idk why I felt I had to share that, aside from maybe thinking Carmen's killer was somebody she was not at all threatened by, someone she knew, maybe who 'swung by' with some extra food and drinks and all the while he's planned to try to have sex with her. But I think he was already full of rage and a desire to show her what was what, maybe he needed to feel that she'd 'pushed him to it' by accepting his food and drinks and company and then rejecting him (as he maybe knew she would).

I think he could have harboured strong feelings, attraction plus a lot of judgement and anger, maybe as he knew he'd never get a chance at her and he felt somehow 'entitled'.

Anyway. The charming guy who turns out very scary is not always the good-looking athletic guy, I guess is my point. Sometimes he's the sweet, geeky kind of guy everyone thinks is harmless - if a bit tetchy at times...

I can't see a Carmen inviting a total stranger into her tiny apt for food and drinks. This had to be someone she knew, someone she trusted.

 

[bessie]

Firstly - Det Sgt Will Carter - Bless you. I wish there were more cops like you in the world.

To stab someone 50 times takes a LOT of effort. In an another case I was looking into, I tried to get an idea of how much effort was required, and so staged a mock fight with a pillow and a member of my household, in which I 'stabbed' the pillow (with my imaginary weapon) a few dozen times while dealing with a struggling 'victim'. I can tell you, I was exhausted... It made me realise that it would take a LOT of rage to sustain someone through that level of overkill.

Been there, tried that.

The average guy, even a sexually pushy one (and hey even most rapists) will not stab somebody -50- times. That is such a major over-reaction, I would not be surprised if the killer -- even if outwardly charming, and I do think he was in some way - has a long history of 'snapping' when challenged or denied something he wants - both sexually, and in other areas of life. Perhaps only people closest to him would ever see it.

Yes. Someone knows this person.

I don't know why, but reading this made me recall a guy I knew when I was in college... I had a group of male friends, none of whom I ever dated.. but we did flirt a lot, joking around. There might have been crushes going on, but no-one ever acted on any such feelings. Anyway, the little quiet funny guy of the group, who everyone was really fond of and always seemed kind of sweet ended up showing some shocking true colours one night when all the other went out to get drinks and left us alone. He was nice and sweet as usual, but then he suddenly turned VERY nasty. I mean, he said some incredibly cruel and hurtful things, hateful things, like he despised every atom of me. Stuff about how I was a stuck-up tease who liked to lead men on, how I was such a princess and someone ought to teach me a lesson the hard way, etc etc etc. I did NOT know what to do. (eta: And his face!!! It was literally 'a mask of rage'!)) And I genuinely got rather scared of him. When the others got back, I was crying my eyes out. The guy laughed it all off, minimised the whole thing, "I was joking, hey she takes thing way too serious, hey c'monnn I'm sorry!" But not until the others entered that room. I never saw him the same way again, after that, and neither did his friends I think.

Idk why I felt I had to share that, aside from maybe thinking Carmen's killer was somebody she was not at all threatened by, someone she knew, maybe who 'swung by' with some extra food and drinks and all the while he's planned to try to have sex with her. But I think he was already full of rage and a desire to show her what was what, maybe he needed to feel that she'd 'pushed him to it' by accepting his food and drinks and company and then rejecting him (as he maybe knew she would).

I hear ya.

I think he could have harboured strong feelings, attraction plus a lot of judgement and anger, maybe as he knew he'd never get a chance at her and he felt somehow 'entitled'.

Anyway. The charming guy who turns out very scary is not always the good-looking athletic guy, I guess is my point. Sometimes he's the sweet, geeky kind of guy everyone thinks is harmless - if a bit tetchy at times...

I can't see a Carmen inviting a total stranger into her tiny apt for food and drinks. This had to be someone she knew, someone she trusted.

Maybe, maybe not. At 18-22 or so, our filters are not fully developed, IMO. Probably not a total stranger, but someone she encountered once or twice previously -- friend of a friend, perhaps -- and felt she knew.

 

[Ausgirl]

Cheers, Bessie -

"Been there, tried that" - how tired did you get, how quickly? Without adrenaline pumping, I guess it makes a huge difference. But it's still a lot of energy expended, a lot of momentum behind that kind of effort.

As to filters - I shudder to think of my own (lack of..) at that age. In any case, it's clear he had Carmen at ease, they were laughing and chatting, he had food and drinks at the ready. I just have a feeling this was not a spur of the moment crime. Like, he'd had a great resentment toward her building for some time and gave himself the opportunity to express it.. What kind of a man goes from laughing and chatting to rape and 50 stab wounds? A highly unstable one, that's for sure. And there's very few men of that type who can hide what they really are, forever.

I just hope people eventually come forward to police with what they know/suspect. I saw upthread someone saying there were people in the area with strong suspicions, I would hope they'd given Det Sgt Carter a call.

 

[oldwindow]

@ghost wheel

I'm assuming he put knife to her neck this why she stop yelling. 2 hours is good time to be social with some one for a small get together. My thing is what did they order. The receipt should show this, if they cant find that, then the food wrapper has what was ordered, drink size and all,. They can lead it back to if both went to get the food or was it just one guy. the order taker name should be on the receipt, also time of the order.

 

[True Crime Gal]

Firstly - Det Sgt Will Carter - Bless you. I wish there were more cops like you in the world.

Seconding this. (Thirding? One-hundreding?)

To stab someone 50 times takes a LOT of effort. In an another case I was looking into, I tried to get an idea of how much effort was required, and so staged a mock fight with a pillow and a member of my household, in which I 'stabbed' the pillow (with my imaginary weapon) a few dozen times while dealing with a struggling 'victim'. I can tell you, I was exhausted... It made me realise that it would take a LOT of rage to sustain someone through that level of overkill.

Definitely overkill, and... that really does scream of this being someone she knew and who knew her. Awful.

{snip}
I don't know why, but reading this made me recall a guy I knew when I was in college... I had a group of male friends, none of whom I ever dated.. but we did flirt a lot, joking around. There might have been crushes going on, but no-one ever acted on any such feelings. Anyway, the little quiet funny guy of the group, who everyone was really fond of and always seemed kind of sweet ended up showing some shocking true colours one night when all the other went out to get drinks and left us alone. He was nice and sweet as usual, but then he suddenly turned VERY nasty. I mean, he said some incredibly cruel and hurtful things, hateful things, like he despised every atom of me. Stuff about how I was a stuck-up tease who liked to lead men on, how I was such a princess and someone ought to teach me a lesson the hard way, etc etc etc. I did NOT know what to do. (eta: And his face!!! It was literally 'a mask of rage'!)) And I genuinely got rather scared of him. When the others got back, I was crying my eyes out. The guy laughed it all off, minimised the whole thing, "I was joking, hey she takes thing way too serious, hey c'monnn I'm sorry!" But not until the others entered that room. I never saw him the same way again, after that, and neither did his friends I think.
{snip}

Oh my gosh, how awful. Thanks for sharing this experience. And yes, I can see this being a possibility.

Did anyone with whom she worked quit and subsequently leave town shortly after the murder? (I'm sure this would have been covered...)

tcg

 

[Ausgirl]

Well, strangers do overkill too, sometimes. But even given Carmen's youth - she had not been out partying (which is when your defenses are really down at that age) and I'm not picking up anything in the available info to suggest she was likely to usher a complete stranger into her place in the night. So the talking & laughing, the fact they probably had something to eat and drink before the attack, suggests he was at least an acquaintance she'd come to trust. For all we know, the food was part of a ruse "omg, locked myself out, waiting on the locksmith and look, I have all this food". Though I think it was more of a drop by and see her thing, if not a prearranged meeting.

It's the fact he was laughing, being friendly, brought food and drink, the cries of 'get off' that all add up, to me, to strong possibility that her killer was someone who had a whole romance ideal going on his head which not fulfilled, and so he snapped. Maybe he knew he was going to be rejected and came prepared, maybe he really thought she'd go for him.. But 50 stab wounds is *rage*, not disappointment. Rape is not sex, it's about power and control. Possession.

I wonder if anyone is aware of a male in or around her life - even peripherally - who had a "thing" for Carmen. Noticably so, perhaps pushily or persistently so, I mean. Someone maybe who could seem nice enough but was a bit 'off'.

 

[Ven]

Maybe there was someone she knew from high school? A friend's brother?

I can't remember the case but a year or few years ago LE caught a guy 20 years later or something, he was a teenager and had raped and murdered his sister's best friend. The two families were very close and he was always present at searches and media events. Then 20 years later they found out it was him on DNA. You wonder why someone like him wasn't investigated right from the beginning. In this case, maybe something similar happened, maybe there is someone in her immediate or next to immediate circle that was passed off as an impossibility but was the killer all along?

 

[bcsoda]

2) employees at Pizza Hut [Who doesn't call after an employee misses 2 days? She had worked there almost a year.]

Is there a track record of her employment with Pizza Hut? If she regularly missed work (or even semi-regularly) then it might not appear that odd to them.

People also don't like worrying other people. If they had called her emergency contact after a day and it turned out to be nothing then it would have caused some unnecessary drama (I'm not saying this is the way it should be, I just think it's the way it often is). After 2 days maybe they were starting to wonder, and maybe by 3 days they would have called. It's not that unusual for young adults to miss shifts at work (IMO).

I agree with the statement above......"I truly believe the answers are within reach".
What we seem to have established so far is that Carmen arrived home with a friend and an evening "with a friend" started.
We seem to agree that maybe a consentual encounter may have started that turned bad.
I think the friend probably did suggest something perverse and bizarre that Carmen objected to, when he tried to force he she screamed "get off of me".
Screaming either makes the perp run or silence the victim. We know by the outcome that he silenced her.
What we need to work further on is where Carmen knew him from.

I don't necessarily think that the assailant had to suggest something perverse or bizarre for her to scream "get off me!" I think that the assailant even just being pushy in his advances could warrant a woman screaming at them to get off. Especially if it was a situation where Carmen knew the assailant could physically overpower her. In that situation one only has so many options.

 

[oldwindow]

We need more details, did she drive? was she social in the community. Did she hang out at certain places,. This is a very poor,poor detail case. We still haven't seen the out side of this place. We still dont know the type of area it is..

Is it a retirement area, or mixed with young and old etc. Stuff like this tell us who or whom is likely to out side , what roaute he could have taken during these hours. I Liked to asked the detective who worked the case to please give a little more information. We need to know the area. type for the time frame of 1993..

 

[Ven]

I thought about this some more, and does anyone else think that 50 stab wounds not only means she probably knew the killer ... but that the killer had known her for some time? Probably harboring these feelings for years? I think it's likely that there were long pent up feelings. Probably the killer had fantasized about her or pursued her for a long time. Maybe even they lost contact for some months or years, but then were re-acquainted. Perhaps he asked her out and was turned down several times, showing a pattern of obsession and rejection that built up over some time, or they had dated in junior high or high school. Or it could be a male family member or male family member of a close friend ... someone she had known for a long time.

Whatever the case, I think the killer must have obsessed over her for a long time, whether they were in constant contact with each other, or with gaps of not seeing each other. But these twisted emotions and thoughts (I hate to call them feelings) must have been built up over a prolonged time for there to be that much overkill.

 

[meanmaryjean]

We need more details, did she drive? was she social in the community. Did she hang out at certain places,. This is a very poor,poor detail case. We still haven't seen the out side of this place. We still dont know the type of area it is..

Is it a retirement area, or mixed with young and old etc. Stuff like this tell us who or whom is likely to out side , what roaute he could have taken during these hours. I Liked to asked the detective who worked the case to please give a little more information. We need to know the area. type for the time frame of 1993..

This is a nice area of Indianapolis. I work at Peyton Manning Children's Hospital (part of the larger St.Vincent 86th Street campus)- just a couple hundred yards from the apartment complex, and my daughter lives just a couple blocks south. Lots of hospital employees live in the complex. There is a small area of woods to the south of the hospital and a retreat center just south of the woods. Our families walk the trails in those woods at all hours without problems. I get called into work at odd hour of the night, and have no fears walking in from the parking garage or ground lots.

 

[oldwindow]

Was this the same climate theme in 1993.. So this is upscale area, working family, college adults type of theme. How far is nearest store from this apartment. You say there's woods/parks near by. I'm wondering if the killer took this route. Would this be the ideal path to take and not be seen? by the way thank you.

I'm asking because he killer may have gotten blood on him that night and he would take route that's the fastest and the most unseen.. Also from what I take this route leads to a lot of opening to discard things. Do these woods or parks have public trash cans in them.?

 

[meanmaryjean]

The nearest store is a good half mile or so, maybe further.

If anything, the neighborhood has gone down a bit since 1993 (my son was born at St. Vincent in that year). It is still basically safe and family-friendly. 86th street and Harcourt are major E-W and N-S roads respectively. 86th street is a major shopping area, Harcourt has no shopping on it the entire length of it- only the entrances to apartments complexes and subdivisions.

The woods I spoke of is not heavy- it is basically a city block that has trees and trails, but no structures, surrounded by the various buildings that make up this major medical complex.

There are trash receptacles in the woods, they are picked up by the hospital as it is hospital property.