IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

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  • #241
@Tony Gatto:

I'm curious about this answer you gave in an earlier post:



I was under the impression that the witness was totally unrelated to Lauren and the POI's. Is that correct? I'm wondering why she would not want to talk, even under the condition of anonymity... Any ideas about who may have influenced her, or why?

How could making a positive ID on AB not be significant to LE? This is something that should have been done immediately. So who got to the 3:38 witness, if not LE then who? This doesn't make sense at all.
 
  • #242
I think they are looking for businesses to check their videos to verify the whereabouts of a certain person or car that traveled to Lauren's last known sighting (the gravel lot) and that they have this person on their video, they just want to know if there was anyone else involved, a car that perhaps transported her/body, when and how the car got there, the person/suspect walking and possible people he/she may have been cohorting with. I'm quite certain that LE knows their man, they just don't have the evidence to press charges without additional info. They would like to see more and that's why they're making the statement that they may not even know what they're looking at may/may not be evidence. I'm thinking they're looking for the getaway/transport car. Which of these 10 POI's had cars at school. Who had one parked in the gravel lot? Seems LE pointing to that gravel lot being the place where she met her demise and/or was taken from the gravel lot to meet her demise.

I can't get that pick up truck out of my head for the life of me and how quickly they dismissed it. Perhaps because they knew their main POI had no connection to it? I've looked at those pics of the bed of the truck and it is creepy but I see someone in there. The mind can, however, play tricks when the mind wants it to.

What gives you this certainty?
 
  • #243
Please explain, given the known facts, how a classic rape/murder fits here and who could or could not be involved?

It does not fit with the known facts. However, we do not know if the police has other information that they are not disclosing. Frequently, in murder investigation cases the police keeps certain facts or evidence from the public in order not to complicate the investigation.

I think the most "popular" working theory is the OD. However, it is hard to believe that someone like JR who was apparently her friend would be willing to discard her body instead of taking her to the ER of a hospital. I have hard time believing that. Based on that, I find the scenario of "OD only" somewhat unlikely.
 
  • #244
It does not fit with the known facts. However, we do not know if the police has other information that they are not disclosing. Frequently, in murder investigation cases the police keeps certain facts or evidence from the public in order not to complicate the investigation.

I think the most "popular" working theory is the OD. However, it is hard to believe that someone like JR who was apparently her friend would be willing to discard her body instead of taking her to the ER of a hospital. I have hard time believing that. Based on that, I find the scenario of "OD only" somewhat unlikely.

I agree with you, however, this could be the difference between my way of thinking and an extremely selfish person's way of thinking. Not saying that JR is selfish because I don't know him. But he may also have a different mindset if he's a big time drug user since they are sometime paranoid about getting caught. (These are all just possibilities about JR, not saying he's selfish or a big time drug user)

I was a partying college girl once, and if one of my friends OD'ed, or even an acquaintance, my first thought would be getting them to the ER. The thought of myself getting in trouble probably wouldn't even enter my mind until later!
 
  • #245
What gives you this certainty?

Because LE has not released the video that they believe were the events just prior to her demise. This video shows a person or persons, in addition to LS exiting or in the gravel lot. We don't know who that is. They do. If it isn't someone that lived there, then it would stand to reason that LE wants to know how and when they got there, with whom and how and when they left. Let's specualate and just say this person/s was waiting for LS to exit the JR/CR apartments alone, they had to get to this position somehow at some point during the night. Did they get dropped off? Did they walk? Did they drive? Did the car come back in the morning at some point? The person in the possession of the video would have no idea who or what they are looking for. LE knows what they are looking for. They know whats on the camera already and WHO. They probably know the cars they are looking at and we don't. Which makes me think it's not someone from the JR/CR/MB apartments and someone who staked out Lauren's whereabouts that night, waiting for her. LS is not at the JR/CR/MB apartments any longer - how did she leave? Who's car? That's where I'm going on this.
 
  • #246
I agree with you. When I 1st heard this story, my 1st thought was that one guy, (while the others played dumb), managed to get her alone or a group of guys took advantage of her. This is pure speculation, but I know from stories I heard while my dd was in high school, it happens. A LOT. For instance...a cheerleader went to a party, got drunk, and then had 'consensual' sex with a group of football players. The next day at school, a lot of kids were talking about the night and what she had done. She never denied it...just said that she was drunk and it wasn't her fault. There was a campaign by the cheerleader moms to get her kicked off the squad. The next year, there was the same story, but involved a different cheerleader. I'm not accusing her friends, because she could have been picked up on her walk home, but I do know there's nothing more dangerous for a girl, than a group of entitled guys egging each other on. When a certain type of guy gets together with others of that type, and alcohol or drugs are added to the mix, an intoxicated girl becomes nothing but a thing. MOO

I think this theory was in between the lines for a while. The only problem with is the 3rd parties beyond CR/MB and JR. There supposedly were other people in both apts and some may have gone between the 2 apts. were they all guys? were they all the same type? Gang bangs do happen more frequently to college age girls than anyone else and usually does involve drinking and/or drugs. 5 guys having their semen in her would be one of those conspiracies where they all might do very well at keeping their mouth shut. If you plug this theory into the 3:38 witness (whether nor not ZO and AB were involved) someone might have been tasked with bringing her home, if she fell a few times hitting her head she could have died along the way. Then what would someone do? Knowing that she is full of alcohol and probably drugs (maybe her own meds) and semen from you or you and a few pals, and you are standing there holding her dead body after a witness just passed... what next?
 
  • #247
Sorry, I do not have a link, which is why I called it "rumor". The "comments" to which I referred, included HT's comment about LS being a partier and taking it "too far" this time. I know what "partier" means to this generation.



At this point, I think ALL theories are built upon these layers. I for one, do not only consider foul play. I consider most all reasonable theories because we've been shared virtually no evidence, just a sort of timeline. There are many many possibilities which could have happened within that "timeline" so yes, those are all going to built upon speculation and assumptions since we have few facts. I'm not narrowing my focus, and I agree with you that tunnel vision would significantly limit LE's ability to solve this case. I hope they're considering many possibilities. However, I also hope that they begin with the most reasonable.



I understand this and again, I'm not suggesting that they have tunnel vision. However, there are so many places to look. Yes, they need to search everywhere, but I really think they need to begin with a plan. For example, if the likelihood of a stranger abduction is greater than her maybe finding keys and getting into a car, then ODing, and being taken to an airport, where a guy was planning to leave his car for the ENTIRE summer, then to me it would make sense to remain more focused around Bloomington (in the woods and other places) than venturing off to Indy. That doesn't mean that I discount looking at the airport, or even at Walmart, eventually, so I think we're on the same page.

Theories are theories until you disprove them. PLEASE help disprove them and then you will be left with the ones that lead to the truth.
 
  • #248
How could making a positive ID on AB not be significant to LE? This is something that should have been done immediately. So who got to the 3:38 witness, if not LE then who? This doesn't make sense at all.

LE has discounted this witness all along and therefore no need for her to verify or make an ID of AB. This could be the kiss of death for LE. They may have what they want on the video as to person/s involved but I believe they're still searching for the mode/method of LS's removal from the area. This could include others involvement, including AB. If she met her demise in the gravel lot, how did she leave the gravel lot? shortsighted IMO. Could it be LE shutting her up?
 
  • #249
If you watch the video of the community meeting you can pretty easily tell that these guys are a bit out there and are pushing a certain agenda that really has nothing to do with LS.

Please explain what this AGENDA was? Why doesn't anyone seem to know or talk about this AGENDA?
 
  • #250
It's an apartment for college students. I'm sure their cameras have seen a fair share of drunken people being carried and/or supported. :crazy:

Yes, I'm sure that true, yet if you were caught on camera delivering her body to her apt so it looks like she OD's in bed it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?
 
  • #251
It's my understanding that N. College was well lit. The Gravel Lot may have been dark, but light enough that at 2:51am the Alley Cam still records.

It depends. 11th and College is not "well lit" but 10th and College is in comparison mainly due to the Waffle House. The block before Waffle House is more residential with more foliage too.
 
  • #252
Re: The 3:38 sighting. Assuming the carrier is AB, which is a fair assumption, and given that LE said they saw the carrier on video, then it's likely that AB is on the 2:48 or 2:51 video and/or earlier such as the Smallwood altercation.
 
  • #253
Yes, I'm sure that true, yet if you were caught on camera delivering her body to her apt so it looks like she OD's in bed it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Unless you have the body concealed in a suitcase and you're driving a car.
 
  • #254
I appreciate your calm posting style. Big friendly wave to you.



(color added by me)

Sorry, but I consider rumors that are not,in some way, supported by
actual fact to be unsatifactory for use as a base for building a theory.
(That is my opinion & not a directive for how others must be.)

For example:
Hypothetic case:
If some person named Bill goes missing after a night of drinking
with friends and LE finds his body and cause of death is found to be
gunshot wound and if one of the 2 last people known to be in his
company before he went missing has been arrested a few times for
getting drunk & threatening people with a gun then, if no facts ruled it
out, I might theorize that person might have been responsible for Bill's
death and should be looked at carefully.

But if Bill goes missing and his body is has not been found I will not
go on a rumor that his neighbor Nancy shot him because he played his
music too loud and then make up an entire theory based on supposed
friction with his neighbor Nancy with speculation of a love triangle
thrown in to boot. For me there has to be an actual basis in fact.
Of course not all people are me. Everyone has their own way of
looking at things.

In this real case about Lauren:
If her boyfriend had a past history
(mentioned in MSM or verifiable by court documents) of becoming
threatening and violent when someone broke up with him then I could
see that fact as being reason to theorize he needs to be looked at
strongly in Lauren's disapearance.

Or if those with Lauren the night she was last seen had been busted
by LE for partying with illegal drugs before I might see that as basis
for theorizing that those drugs might have been present again, perhaps,
but without any such factual history I would not pour out a theory
of heavy drug use & OD as cause of death.

In fact without something to indicate death I hate to begin theorizing
the missing person is even dead. That is because I have read so many
cases here on Websleuths, over the years, where it looked like foul play
but in fact was not foul play at all and often the missing person was not
dead, much to almost everyone's surprise.


I wanted to take a moment to commend you for remaining open
to other possible case outcomes.


It seems they have already been looking in those 'more sense' areas.
However even if it might sound unlikely for someone to leave a car
with a body behind at an airport I posted links to show it has
happened and infact already has happened this spring/summer
if I correctly recall my last websearch on the subject.

I waited until other lines of searching seemed to have failed before
mentioning the airport possibility.

In the beginning an airport was not the most likely place to look
but after all the searches on the local grounds and out in the county
rural areas failed to produce results it seemed time to begin to look
in secondary places that are of the type where bodies have been
known to have been found in other cases.

I can't remember a case of a body turning up in a walmart,
as you mentioned, but I have read of bodies turning up
at airport parking areas so I posted.

Of course self storage areas have also been known to house a body
but it is easier to get the airport parking area looked at than to get
private storage opened up all across the area.

There are probably other likely areas to look & I hope people come up
with the right place.

**************************
'. . . man was found dead in a van parked at the Albuquerque Sunport on June 5 . . .'
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/More-details-released-on-Sunport-body-dr

'. . . The woman's body was discovered late Monday night.
While there are no obvious signs of trauma to her body, authorities do
want to know why she was in the back seat of a vehicle that was parked
inside the Terminal D parking garage at Bush Intercontinental Airport. . . .'
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7109645

Seems to me that people come up with theories for a variety of reasons. We all see things and have life experience and based on fact or rumor the point is they are just THEORIES. A theory that is not true and baseless in fact, should be easy to destroy with facts and logic. I'm not sure why one would be afraid of theories based on anything. If it's not true, just debunk it. Yet, I would like to hear your theories and welcome all facts and logic that debunk the existing ones. this is how you get somewhere...
 
  • #255
Re: The 3:38 sighting. Assuming the carrier is AB, which is a fair assumption, and given that LE said they saw the carrier on video, then it's likely that AB is on the 2:48 or 2:51 video and/or earlier such as the Smallwood altercation.

I never heard that LE acknowledges the carrier on video. This is the first time I'm hearing this. They fail to acknowledge that entire witness/carrier exchange. Can you find the source where they do?
 
  • #256
It does not fit with the known facts. However, we do not know if the police has other information that they are not disclosing. Frequently, in murder investigation cases the police keeps certain facts or evidence from the public in order not to complicate the investigation.

I think the most "popular" working theory is the OD. However, it is hard to believe that someone like JR who was apparently her friend would be willing to discard her body instead of taking her to the ER of a hospital. I have hard time believing that. Based on that, I find the scenario of "OD only" somewhat unlikely.

So you think it's more likely that JR raped and murdered her then disposed of the body?
 
  • #257
I appreciate your calm posting style. Big friendly wave to you.
You are most welcome. I don't see the sense in being "ugly" to others, just because they don't share my same viewpoint. If we ALL had the same view, that would most certainly be the worst tunnel vision.

Sorry, but I consider rumors that are not,in some way, supported by actual fact to be unsatifactory for use as a base for building a theory.

I can understand and appreciate this. With this case however, unfortunately the only real "facts" we have are a list of left-behind items at a bar and the alleyway, some sort of confrontation (with no verified people involved - we just know that LS was not involved), LS walking down an alley with an unknown man, and the time when she was no longer shown on video. CR having amnesia was just mentioned by his lawyer, so really not a fact. We don't even know for a fact who reported her missing. This is VERY little information. (I may have left out a thing or two). Most everything else is rumor or hearsay from HT (LOTS of our information comes from her - none of which can be proven as fact). IMO these few facts could be used to support many many many theories. I just don't see how WE can come up with any single theory without speculation and relying on some rumors. Hopefully LE has more facts. My point is that they need to begin with some theory. Without starting with a theory, it's just straw-grasping.

Regarding the possible drug use, I've used HT's statements, plus things that I've read that were reportedly posted on the facebook sites of some of the alleged POI's, in addition to knowing how many kids "party" in college these days, as my basis for speculating there was drug use. You are absolutely right - it's based on hearsay and rumor - but that's all I have to go on and I think it's a very good possibility. If HT is going to make a comment that LS took things too far, I tend to believe her, being that they're so close. But year, that's not factual.

In this real case about Lauren:
If her boyfriend had a past history
(mentioned in MSM or verifiable by court documents) of becoming
threatening and violent when someone broke up with him then I could
see that fact as being reason to theorize he needs to be looked at
strongly in Lauren's disapearance.

In the real world, LE do not look at boyfriends and consider them POI's only if they have a past history of becoming threatening and violent. Unfortunately, boyfriends and husbands are almost always considered a POI because of a "crime of passion". It's a real theory, but of course it's based on the behavior of OTHER boyfriends and husbands, as opposed to this guy's own personal past behavior/experiences. It may not be fair, but it's real. I take that same mentality when thinking about drug use. These kids may never have put a single pill in their mouths, but based on how I know many, if not most of the current college crowd "parties", and HT's comments, it gives me reason to consider this theory.

I wanted to take a moment to commend you for remaining open to other possible case outcomes.
Thank you. I am very very open to most all reasonable theories and outcomes. I do not believe with near certainty that she's dead. Unfortunately, I do think it's probable but yes, let's consider Jaycee Dungard (sp?). I also consider foul play by friend(s), acquaintances or boyfriend, stranger abduction, her just walking away from her own life, and her wandering off drunk alone and falling somewhere unnoticed. While some of these seem more likely to me, they're all possibilities.

I think you may have taken my Walmart comment literally. I was kidding LOL. My point was that she could be anywhere. There are lots and lots and lots of non "common" places where she could be. I just don't think it's logical that LE can scour the entire planet looking for her without starting with some sort of "plan" and that takes me back to the beginning when I say that I believe that begins with a theory. Unless they have more facts than we do, that theory may have to be based on rumor, but at least it's a place to begin. I do not believe they've checked ALL of the logical areas yet. I'm not convinced that they've checked all construction sites, sewers, landfills (well enough), etc.
 
  • #258
Because LE has not released the video that they believe were the events just prior to her demise. This video shows a person or persons, in addition to LS exiting or in the gravel lot. We don't know who that is. They do. If it isn't someone that lived there, then it would stand to reason that LE wants to know how and when they got there, with whom and how and when they left. Let's specualate and just say this person/s was waiting for LS to exit the JR/CR apartments alone, they had to get to this position somehow at some point during the night. Did they get dropped off? Did they walk? Did they drive? Did the car come back in the morning at some point? The person in the possession of the video would have no idea who or what they are looking for. LE knows what they are looking for. They know whats on the camera already and WHO. They probably know the cars they are looking at and we don't. Which makes me think it's not someone from the JR/CR/MB apartments and someone who staked out Lauren's whereabouts that night, waiting for her. LS is not at the JR/CR/MB apartments any longer - how did she leave? Who's car? That's where I'm going on this.

I agree that LE seems to know more than they have revealed (LETS HOPE SO). And that this does involve the gravel lot (that's long been my gut feel). But I don't see how based on anything public, that you could be certain they know who they are after.

Also if "they" were lying in wait in the gravel lot and it happened between 2:51 am and 3:00am then CR is involved and his amnesia gets him off the hook, but then MB covers for CR so he is involved too, and then JR covers for both of them and so then he is involved.

I am fascinated with what you are saying about JR's statements being now attributed to HT. This would mean that either JR did make those statements to HT or that he has a different story and HT is a liar. If he told something different to LE surely they would know it by now.
I do recall that LE reported in a press conference that someone called from JR's to DR at 4:15 that info did not come from HT and could easily be verified by phone records.
 
  • #259
I never heard that LE acknowledges the carrier on video. This is the first time I'm hearing this. They fail to acknowledge that entire witness/carrier exchange. Can you find the source where they do?

They didn't really fail to acknowledge the exchange, they said that the time was not in line with their timeline, and gave a very ambiguous answer when asked about it.
 
  • #260
I never heard that LE acknowledges the carrier on video. This is the first time I'm hearing this. They fail to acknowledge that entire witness/carrier exchange. Can you find the source where they do?

No. They do not discount the entire thing. They discount the specific time. We have had this conversation a gazillion times here on WS. It's a contentious topic! Forewarning: I will limit my responses because I don't want to go backwards and have the same conversation over and over again. :crazy:

“What I’m here to tell you is that we have reviewed the video, not only the timeline that we have been using, ... and where Lauren does in fact appear ... she does appear in that video with someone that is already known to investigators. We have also reviewed it during the time period where it has been reported, essentially an hour later (at 3:38 a.m.), and we do not find any evidence that supports that information,” Qualters said.

“I can’t say that she didn’t see Lauren,” Qualters continued. “It does not appear that she saw Lauren at the time that was reported by other sources.”

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto
 
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